Interesting insight (John 3v36) OSAS take note

[fredoheaven]

Has nobody noticed that the Greek words are different because the first Greek word is for believeth and the other Greek word is for believeth NOT?

Did noticed that one also. The context is simply saying of "receiving his testimony" which really defines what faith is this all about, hence believe, belief simply means to receive. It's not obedience which is already the result. Surely the OP misses one thing, by excluding "not". God bless

John 3:32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
John 3:33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.

 

[soggykitten]

Because they do not want them to be in hell forever and ever!

I thought it was eternal life (not eternal salvation). ???
Eternal life is a gift God gives to all who are believing in Him. It is never taken from the person who believes. But the unbeliever does not have eternal life!

1 John 5:11-13
Imagine, eternal life. It is given for one of two reasons? For salvation or damnation?

 

[soggykitten]

Soggykitten, its not at all about getting someone to believe that their salvation is not eternal. It is that those who claim to have eternal salvation ALREADY but are continuing to live in their sins without repentance do not have it at all. Salation happens at the end. Justification happens at the beginning. Its the sancification that the unbeliever kicks against. Because he/she loves their sins. They havent counted the cost of following Christ, which is to forsake their sins. Whoever loves the world makes himself an enemy of God.

But see, people who claim to be Christian but have never repented of their sins are not Christian. It is that simple.
While people who have repented of their sins, accepted Christ as the savior from their sins, have been regenerated as a new creation through the grace of God, are eternally saved.

I don't think it is fare to conflate fake's with the true saints so as to point at OSAS and say, see! It isn't as eternal as they, the fakes, think.
The fakes were never saved.

 

[Chester]

Has nobody noticed that the Greek words are different because the first Greek word is for believeth and the other Greek word is for believeth NOT?

Ah, but the root of the word changes. "Believe" is pisteo. But here in John 3:36 the word for "believeth not" is apeitho. Pisteo and peitho are different words.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ah, but the root of the word changes. "Believe" is pisteo. But here in John 3:36 the word for "believeth not" is apeitho. Pisteo and peitho are different words.

One means to have an assurance or to be fully persuaded

the other means to be in disobedience.

if you have not come to faith, you are in disobedience to the gospel And are in a continuing state of condemnation

if you have come to faith, you are no longer condemned and this state is forever (eternal life)

 

[mailmandan]

In regards to "does not obey the Son" in the New American Standard translation of the Bible in John 3:36, this does not mean that receiving eternal life is based on the merits of our obedience/works which “follows” believing in the Son, but obey by choosing to believe in the Son. If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To obey the Son here is to choose to believe in the Son.

The King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NIV says "rejects the Son" and the HCSB says, "refuses to believe in the Son." The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is apeitheo and it means: "not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving." Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely."

So in John 3:36, to "not obey the Son" means to disobey the Son by refusing to believe in the Son. John is not teaching type 2 works salvation here, so there is nothing for those in the OSAS camp to take note of.

 

[Corban]

Sorry for the delay, was away for a while. My responses to your message above. Will insert in blue font.


You have misunderstood who are the sons of God and who aren't. Once the scriptures are shown to you, the whole argument above falls apart, as well as most of what is written below: Let's explore together:

John 8v31-36
31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?”
34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

What can we learn from the above? We have the same people today as we see Jesus addressing in his day. People claiming to be sons of God (sons of Abraham infers sons of God and of God's promises). ....

I think you have swapped the crucial terms. "If you abide in my Word you are MY DISCIPLES!" John Baptist had disciples, so did the Pharisees. Were they SONS?

"Sons of Abraham" does NOT infer that they are sons of God. A son of God is one born to God (Jn.1:12-13). A son of Abraham is one born of his loins. Your example from Romans 8 is taken out of context. Here is the context. Romans 8:14-17.

14 "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."

The theme is not to establish whether they be sons of God or not. The theme is the CONTRAST between "sons" (huios - Gk) and "children" (teknon - Gk). The one is "produced by God" (Teknon) and is heir, the other is son (Huios) which inherits because of maturity. Notice the requirement to "joint-heir" with Christ - "IF" they suffer with Him. To BECOME a child of God requires FAITH (Jn.1:12-13). To be a co-inheritor requires WORKS - sufferings WITH Christ.

I respectfully judge that you have no argument at all unless you swap concepts. Here is my friendly challenge. Make your point using the exact words of scripture - no more and no less.

 

[Chris1975]

Now below we see further evidence of the original OP post. To those who conflate words, the below makes this very clear, comparing the OT believers to the NT believers, and showing that we are to LEARN FROM them (see Heb4v2 below).

Hebrews 3
16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
Hebrews 4
1 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, [a]not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:
“So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest,’ ”
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; 5 and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.”
6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:
“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. 10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.
11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.

- here we have disobedience equated to unbelief
- here we have disobedience equated to sinning (for mailmandan to fine tune his definition)
- here we have the church being shown the track record of Israel, as AN EXAMPLE, for her to learn from.
- if you think your belief excludes necessary obedience to God's revealed word, you are sorely mistaken.

 

[Chris1975]

I think you have swapped the crucial terms. "If you abide in my Word you are MY DISCIPLES!" John Baptist had disciples, so did the Pharisees. Were they SONS?

9 “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Those who havent given up on their sins are the sons of disobedinece and are not sons of God.

1 John 1v6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Above in blue.

 

[Chris1975]

And let's take some additional context before the OP verses for further illustration of the belief vs unbelief, or more aptly belief vs disobedience.

John 3
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

The believer will not continue to walk in darkness v20 but rather practices the truth v21. These DEEDS seen in v21 illustrate this is continual. Its walking with God. In the light as He is in the light.

1 John 1
6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

- see. Not a one time conversion experience. An ongoing walking in the light. OSAS fails as a doctrine. The Just shall live by faith (ongoing).

 

[Guojing]

And let's take some additional context before the OP verses for further illustration of the belief vs unbelief, or more aptly belief vs disobedience.

John 3
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

The believer will not continue to walk in darkness v20 but rather practices the truth v21. These DEEDS seen in v21 illustrate this is continual. Its walking with God. In the light as He is in the light.

1 John 1
6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

- see. Not a one time conversion experience. An ongoing walking in the light. OSAS fails as a doctrine. The Just shall live by faith (ongoing).

Actually John never preach OSAS. Many people, thanks to billy graham, started reading the bible by reading the book of John

This led to many of them using John 3:16 as their gospel message. They are basically reading Paul 1 Cor 15:1-4, into that passage when it was not the meaning of the passage.

Once you read 1 John, yes you are correct. According to what John is preaching to Israel, they needed to do works, he focus on love for God and man, for salvation at the end.

 

[mailmandan]

Now below we see further evidence of the original OP post. To those who conflate words, the below makes this very clear, comparing the OT believers to the NT believers, and showing that we are to LEARN FROM them (see Heb4v2 below).

In regards to Hebrews 4:1,2 - For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which they heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For WE who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were genuine believers. *Notice that verses 2-3 makes a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.

Hebrews 3

16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Their disobedience was a manifestation of their unbelief. Hebrews 3:8-10 says, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness, Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, And saw My works forty years. Therefore I was angry with that generation, And said, 'They always go astray in their heart, And they have not known My ways.' Not descriptive of genuine believers. There is no loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it. Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.

Hebrews 4

1 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:
“So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest,’ ”
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; 5 and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.”

Again, take special note of the distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.

6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:
“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. 10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.
11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.

Again, their disobedience was a manifestation of their unbelief. This isn't about believers being disobedient and losing salvation.

- here we have disobedience equated to unbelief
- here we have disobedience equated to sinning (for mailmandan to fine tune his definition)
- here we have the church being shown the track record of Israel, as AN EXAMPLE, for her to learn from.
- if you think your belief excludes necessary obedience to God's revealed word, you are sorely mistaken.

Here we have disobedience as a manifestation of unbelief. Their disobedience was equated to sinning so I have nothing to fine tune. Just as with Israel and people who attend church. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers.

Your anti-OSAS rhetoric does not change this or what is to be obeyed in John 3:36.

KJV - He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

HCSB - The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

AMP - He who believes and trusts in the Son and accepts Him [as Savior] has eternal life [that is, already possesses it]; but he who does not believe the Son and chooses to reject Him, [disobeying Him and denying Him as Savior] will not see [eternal] life, but [instead] the wrath of God hangs over him continually.

AMPC - And he who believes in (has faith in, clings to, relies on) the Son has (now possesses) eternal life. But whoever disobeys (is unbelieving toward, refuses to trust in, disregards, is not subject to) the Son will never see (experience) life, but [instead] the wrath of God abides on him. [God’s displeasure remains on him; His indignation hangs over him continually.]

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[mailmandan]

And let's take some additional context before the OP verses for further illustration of the belief vs unbelief, or more aptly belief vs disobedience.

John 3
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

The believer will not continue to walk in darkness v20 but rather practices the truth v21. These DEEDS seen in v21 illustrate this is continual. Its walking with God. In the light as He is in the light.

Believers practice the truth, come to the light and are not in darkness, but are in the light.

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?

Ephesians 5:8 - for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light.

1 John 1

6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

1 John 1:6 - If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. Walking in darkness is descriptive of children of the devil. Walking in the light is descriptive of children of God.

In 1 John 2:9, we read - He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. In vs. 11 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

*Compare with 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, (compare with 1 John 1:6 - does not practice the truth) nor is he who does not love his brother. *Notice that walks in darkness, hates his brother is descriptive children of the devil.

- see. Not a one time conversion experience. An ongoing walking in the light. OSAS fails as a doctrine. The Just shall live by faith (ongoing).

We are not converted/born again multiple times, but only once. Genuine conversion results in an ongoing walking in the light because believers are now in the light. OSAS doesn't fail as a doctrine, but your straw man argument against OSAS fails. The just do live by or out of faith (which is ongoing). This isn't about self preservation over God's preservation or "type 2 works salvation."

 

[eternally-gratefull]

In regards to Hebrews 4:1,2 - For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which they heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For WE who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were genuine believers. *Notice that verses 2-3 makes a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.

Their disobedience was a manifestation of their unbelief. Hebrews 3:8-10 says, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness, Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, And saw My works forty years. Therefore I was angry with that generation, And said, 'They always go astray in their heart, And they have not known My ways.' Not descriptive of genuine believers. There is no loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it. Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.

Again, take special note of the distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.

Again, their disobedience was a manifestation of their unbelief. This isn't about believers being disobedient and losing salvation.

Here we have disobedience as a manifestation of unbelief. Their disobedience was equated to sinning so I have nothing to fine tune. Just as with Israel and people who attend church. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers.

Your anti-OSAS rhetoric does not change this or what is to be obeyed in John 3:36.

KJV - He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

HCSB - The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

AMP - He who believes and trusts in the Son and accepts Him [as Savior] has eternal life [that is, already possesses it]; but he who does not believe the Son and chooses to reject Him, [disobeying Him and denying Him as Savior] will not see [eternal] life, but [instead] the wrath of God hangs over him continually.

AMPC - And he who believes in (has faith in, clings to, relies on) the Son has (now possesses) eternal life. But whoever disobeys (is unbelieving toward, refuses to trust in, disregards, is not subject to) the Son will never see (experience) life, but [instead] the wrath of God abides on him. [God’s displeasure remains on him; His indignation hangs over him continually.]

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

They can’t get out of their own way bro.

 

[Corban]

Above in blue.

9 “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Those who havent given up on their sins are the sons of disobedinece and are not sons of God.

1 John 1v6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

In your proffered verses I see no UNBIRTH if you are a sinner AFTER your conversion. Verse 9 threatens the Christian, not with UNBIRTH, but a continued walk void of His LOVE - not His LIFE. In verse 2 all is PAST TENSE - the time when we were "sons of disobedience", and "children of wrath" - both metaphorical because disobedience cannot bring forth children. Nor can wrath. When an Israelite broke the Law, did he cease being an Israelite, or, was he chastised according to the Law?

In 1st John 1:6 those who "lie and do not practice the truth" are included in the "we". The "we" is those who "HAVE eternal life" (1:2). That is, it is a warning that Christians, who have God's LIFE, can walk WITHOUT His LIGHT. Added to this, why does the blood of Jesus cleanse from ALL sin when we walk in the light? It could only be true if one who was walking in the light had SINS!

You have (i) again failed to prove your case, (ii) again changed the meaning of what is written, and (iii) again ignored the grammar and context. You've gone and proved the opposite. Let's agree, to establish any doctrine, one needs DIRECT STATEMENTS. You'll also need TWO such statements because everything that you want ESTABLISHED needs two witnesses. We'll start with just three.

1. NOSAS says that the LIFE which we received BY FAITH can be extinguished. What then is the scripture that God's LIFE can be extinguished. Is this not an overthrow of logic and truth? Who can extinguish God's very vitality?
2. NOSAS says a man is born again, justified, sanctified, reconciled and atoned for by FAITH. But by some puny works of his, he can UNDO Christ's WORK - for it is by this work that the above is achieved.
3. NOSAS says that if a Christian sins he is UNBIRTHED, the divine life in his spirit is extinguished, the atonement for his sins is invalidated and the Father reverses the effect of His Son Jesus' Work

These are serious doctrines and should not proposed without serious proof.

 

[Corban]

And let's take some additional context before the OP verses for further illustration of the belief vs unbelief, or more aptly belief vs disobedience.

John 3
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

The believer will not continue to walk in darkness v20 but rather practices the truth v21. These DEEDS seen in v21 illustrate this is continual. Its walking with God. In the light as He is in the light.

1 John 1
6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

- see. Not a one time conversion experience. An ongoing walking in the light. OSAS fails as a doctrine. The Just shall live by faith (ongoing).

The bold black is your argument. You maintain that "the believer will not continue to walk in darkness." But according to you he is no longer a believer because he walked in darkness. How can a Christian sin, be a Christian no longer because of what he DID (works), but have the blood of Jesus cleanse him from ALL sin? Are the unbelievers cleansed by the blood of Christ? But let us make it real.

In 1st Corinthians 5 a "BROTHER" lived in INCEST. How then did the Holy Spirit call him a BROTHER? "Brother" means we have the same father. And how is it that he is called a "brother" while he is committing this heinous sin, and is still called a brother AFTER judgement. And how come, after committing this sin, being handed over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, and being excommunicated, his spirit will be saved in that day?

I dare say that not only is there NO argument for NOSAS, but ALL the evidence points to the fact that a man who BELIEVED and succumbed to his flesh and commits sins, even heinous sins where he must be killed for them, is CHASTISED but PRESERVED.

 

[throughfaith]

A person is never "saved" if that person claims faith yet has not fruits of the Holy Spirit to show for it. Faith without works is no faith at all. In other words this type of person is a false believer.

When you say Faith without works , you might look at Abraham and ask how many works ? One . We simply obey the Gospel by saying yes I believe you died for me and recieve you Jesus who died for my sins ,was buried and Rose again accourding to the scriptures which is our 'one 'Act of faith.

 

[throughfaith]

After all is said and done, and all your arguments are given, the text - John 3:36 - still says exactly what it says:

- the one who is believing in Christ has everlasting life - Wonderful! PTL! What blessings and promises from our Saviour!

- but the one who is not believing, heeding, obeying will not see life, and the wrath of God abides on him.

This text does not say that one person cannot go from believing to not believing -- nor does it say it is impossible for a person to go from not believing to believing.

So if someone is not believing, heeding, obeying they are not saved no matter what doctrine a person may use to try to say they are saved.

So when you say believing, heeding, obeying when do they receive Jesus , the Holy Spirit ,justification , sanctification, and predestined to the Future Adoption . According to your theory this can never happen?

 

[throughfaith]

Soggykitten, its not at all about getting someone to believe that their salvation is not eternal. It is that those who claim to have eternal salvation ALREADY but are continuing to live in their sins without repentance do not have it at all. Salation happens at the end. Justification happens at the beginning. Its the sancification that the unbeliever kicks against. Because he/she loves their sins. They havent counted the cost of following Christ, which is to forsake their sins. Whoever loves the world makes himself an enemy of God.

Every one who is justified will be glorified. Thats the whole point Paul is making in Romans 8 , Ephesians 1,2 4 and many other places .

 

[Blain]

Two different words are used for believe in John 3v36. Using the KJV and Strongs concordance below:

John 3v36 KJV 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Strongs: 3:36 He that believeth 4100 5723 on 1519 the Son 5207 hath 2192 5719 everlasting 166 life 2222: and 1161 he that believeth not 544 5723 the Son 5207 shall 3700 0 not 3756 see 3700 5695 life 2222; but 235 the wrath 3709 of God 2316 abideth 3306 5719 on 1909 him 846.

- The first believeth is
Word: pisteuw
Pronounce: pist-yoo'-o
Strongs Number: G4100
Orig: from 4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):--believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with. G4102
Use: TDNT-6:174,849 Verb
Heb Strong: H6004 H8085
1) to have faith in, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
1a) of the thing believed
1a1) to credit, have confidence
1b) in a moral or religious reference
2) by implication, to commit or entrust, i.e. to entrust your spiritual well-being to Christ
2a) to make a commitment (to trust)
2b) to put in trust with or place confidence in

- The second believeth is
Word: apeiqew
Pronounce: ap-i-theh'-o
Strongs Number: G544
Orig: from 545; to disbelieve (wilfully and perversely):--not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving. G545
Use: TDNT-6:10,818 Verb
Heb Strong: H2308 H3808 H3808 H3985 H3988 H4603 H4775 H4784 H4843 H5637 H8280
1) not to allow one's self to be persuaded
1a) to refuse or withhold belief
1b) to refuse belief and obedience
2) not to comply with


There is a glaringly obvious reason why a different word is used. The first one is to put your faith in. The second one is to heed and obey what He says.

This is indeed interesting considering how much stock I have in the meaning of words you would think I would have come across this but I didn't even think to very well done