Interesting insight (John 3v36) OSAS take note

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Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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#41
So when you say believing, heeding, obeying when do they receive Jesus , the Holy Spirit ,justification , sanctification, and predestined to the Future Adoption . According to your theory this can never happen?
Sorry, I really have no idea what you are getting at in the above post??

In the post you referenced I was just explaining what John 3:36 says or does not say. (I think maybe you are beginning with doctrine again . . .? ;) )
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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#42
Two different words are used for believe in John 3v36. Using the KJV and Strongs concordance below:

John 3v36 KJV 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Strongs: 3:36 He that believeth 4100 5723 on 1519 the Son 5207 hath 2192 5719 everlasting 166 life 2222: and 1161 he that believeth not 544 5723 the Son 5207 shall 3700 0 not 3756 see 3700 5695 life 2222; but 235 the wrath 3709 of God 2316 abideth 3306 5719 on 1909 him 846.

- The first believeth is
Word: pisteuw
Pronounce: pist-yoo'-o
Strongs Number: G4100
Orig: from 4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):--believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with. G4102
Use: TDNT-6:174,849 Verb
Heb Strong: H6004 H8085
1) to have faith in, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
1a) of the thing believed
1a1) to credit, have confidence
1b) in a moral or religious reference
2) by implication, to commit or entrust, i.e. to entrust your spiritual well-being to Christ
2a) to make a commitment (to trust)
2b) to put in trust with or place confidence in

- The second believeth is
Word: apeiqew
Pronounce: ap-i-theh'-o
Strongs Number: G544
Orig: from 545; to disbelieve (wilfully and perversely):--not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving. G545
Use: TDNT-6:10,818 Verb
Heb Strong: H2308 H3808 H3808 H3985 H3988 H4603 H4775 H4784 H4843 H5637 H8280
1) not to allow one's self to be persuaded
1a) to refuse or withhold belief
1b) to refuse belief and obedience
2) not to comply with



There is a glaringly obvious reason why a different word is used. The first one is to put your faith in. The second one is to heed and obey what He says.
I think we can simply take the word ' believe ' and 'faith ' and we should really all know what that means ,face value . I'm no expert on the greek and often neither are those that want to go to the greek to try support their theology .
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
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#43
The thing is we all know there is always going to be a division in understanding with this topic but I would like to express the importance of it as well.
For instance osas has always been coincided with works vs faith because to understand the truth of osas you also have to first have a understanding of works vs faith do you do works because of faith or do you have faith because of works?
That is not usually how it is thought of as a concep[t it more than often goes along the lines of faith without works is dead but in the end it really is more like working for your salvation because on one hand ture enough faith without works is dead but not because you do not have works but rather you never had faith to begin with otherwise your works would come naturally I mean I have never met a person who is in love with God and somehow was so lazy they didn't do anything

Every person who is a true believer is not simply one as a hobby they are passionate they are surging they blaze the traILin pursuit of him this king of devotion only produces one kind of fruit and that fruit will always have works just as how one can instinctively have their body move to save a persons life they don't even have time to think their body acts on it's based on what is inside them either a person does nothing in that moment or their body just moves.

The issue with a non osas view is that it is not eternal salvation and requires a sense of works to keep your salvation.

This to me makes it seem more like your eternal security is not based on Christ and weakens the power of the cross and his sacrifice it puts less importance on him and more on us on our own doings our own ability our own sins it has to much self with it when last time I checked it was never us that was able to break the chains of sin or eternal security all the great ones in the bible pointed always to one person Jesus, who do we look up at Jesus who do we keep our hearts on Jesus who is our redeemer savior and best friend Jesus

And what of the inheritance? have you ever really thought about that word? An inheritance is a kind of contract or mutual agreement for the one it is passed down to one thing God does not do is go back on his word in fact when he made a contract he kept it no matter what even if years later do you think Abraham was denied his inheritance? was he not also the one who literally had a contract made with him?

Note that he never made a contract with God God made one with him meaning Abraham had no liability no down side, When he was asleep an angel came to cut a piece of flesh off him in his sleep he was not harmed at all but it is the significance of the cutting that we need to pay attention to
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#44
Has nobody noticed that the Greek words are different because the first Greek word is for believeth and the other Greek word is for believeth NOT?
Yes, it's like the word 'theist', put an 'a' in front and you have 'atheist. Essentially same word but going in opposite directions.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
18,140
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#45
When you say Faith without works , you might look at Abraham and ask how many works ? One . We simply obey the Gospel by saying yes I believe you died for me and recieve you Jesus who died for my sins ,was buried and Rose again accourding to the scriptures which is our 'one 'Act of faith.
You have not read my responses for had you, you would know that works include belief, waiting for the Lord, praying, praising our Maker and so much more. Do you think I am so crass as to think works are doing our Father a favor_ I know better, always have.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#46
A person is never "saved" if that person claims faith yet has not fruits of the Holy Spirit to show for it. Faith without works is no faith at all. In other words this type of person is a false believer.
You mean 'if he has not the Holy Spirit'...period. Otherwise how much fruit is required until one is assured they are saved? A bundle? A bushel? A bath?
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
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#47
I made a second part to make it not so long XD
Anyways did you know also that when the Jews made a covanent they did it is blood and flesh with a sacrafice basically it is pretty gross but they would slay a lamb and walk together in it's blood the meaning of this was if I ever break this covanent this is what will happen to me.

God takes these things very seriously if you couldn't tell, now back to the word inheritance it is a covanent sot of a legal conversation and when one recieves an inheritance it is because it rightly belongs to them it cannot ever be take away legally unless stolen but since it is in fact a type of contract and legal tansaction this would imply if we recieve an inheritance from God in becoming his then by his own rules it cannot be taken because then it would breaking the legal contract if it is stolen then it still is binding it is still in your name you have legal rights to it and anyone caught with it pays a very heavy price because you have ownership rights and again note another word of rights think about that we have the right so legally our inheritance cannot be taken and even if some foolish enemy stole it it is still in your name and ownership

However don't forget we do have this inheritance but were we not bought by the blood of Christ? another legal word to notice meaning legally we cannot be taken away from him because we are not our own we were bought giving him and only him legal action with us so if the enemy or even ourselves tried to legally find a loop hole it would be very difficult if even that it may be impossible.

To be under the ownership of a king no less who by all means has much more authoirty than event he most high ranked of people especially with a legal obligation is to literally be as a slave we have no will in the matter but we love and adore him and serve him and give him our will freely and gladly so though we are slaves having no legal rights of our own accord to ourselves we also have the deepest bond and love with God than anyone before the time of Christ.

So I know this was kind of long but just something to think about
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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Tennessee
#48
1 John 5:11-13
Imagine, eternal life. It is given for one of two reasons? For salvation or damnation?
Damnation is referred to as the second death. It seems to me that eternal life is given but taken away from those that are damned.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
8,058
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#50
You have not read my responses for had you, you would know that works include belief, waiting for the Lord, praying, praising our Maker and so much more. Do you think I am so crass as to think works are doing our Father a favor_ I know better, always have.
I'm talking about being Justified. not what we do AFTER we are saved . Do you say your saved ? if so from what ?
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
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#51
Not sure how it can be stolen

1 Peter 1:4 (KJV) To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
This is perfect for the point of the subject if our inheritance is indeed eternal undefiled and is secured in heaven then that just furthers the point of the word itself if it is in heaven then how can we who are alive in earth lose take or throw away what is beyond our reach
 
Nov 23, 2013
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#52
Yes, it's like the word 'theist', put an 'a' in front and you have 'atheist. Essentially same word but going in opposite directions.
It speaks volumes about people who think they can pick up a Greek dictionary and get "deeper" meaning from scripture.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
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#53
It speaks volumes about people who think they can pick up a Greek dictionary and get "deeper" meaning from scripture.
Well if one knows how to read Greek then yes there actually is deeper meaning even translated from Greek and Hebrew English is a flawed language even old English is not precise in translation with certain words
the Greek and Hebrew and Hebrew in particular was very potent on words and their meanings it has roots no other language has in its depth of purpose

It is by definition a holy language and for good reason
 
Nov 23, 2013
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#54
Well if one knows how to read Greek then yes there actually is deeper meaning even translated from Greek and Hebrew English is a flawed language even old English is not precise in translation with certain words
the Greek and Hebrew and Hebrew in particular was very potent on words and their meanings it has roots no other language has in its depth of purpose

It is by definition a holy language and for good reason
I've never seen one person in my 25 years of Christianity come to a deeper understanding of anything by consulting the "original languages". I've seen a lot of people butcher the true meaning like what was done here.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
29,026
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#55
This is perfect for the point of the subject if our inheritance is indeed eternal undefiled and is secured in heaven then that just furthers the point of the word itself if it is in heaven then how can we who are alive in earth lose take or throw away what is beyond our reach
Yes hopefully our life is in Christ secured in the heavenlies.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#58
Damnation is referred to as the second death. It seems to me that eternal life is given but taken away from those that are damned.
But not from those who have received eternal life.
Men are condemned already, damnation seals that condemnation unless they choose Life.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(Joh 3:18)
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
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#59
I've never seen one person in my 25 years of Christianity come to a deeper understanding of anything by consulting the "original languages". I've seen a lot of people butcher the true meaning like what was done here.
Just because you haven’t seen it doesn’t mean it it isn’t true isn’t that literally what we believe in as Christians? I have never seen or experienced healing but I believe anyways
to butcher the word would be to cut or take away from it but how can you do that in the original text there is nothing to cut or take away from it’s the original
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
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#60
The language was no guarantee, holy or not, as many Hebrews fell into gross idolatry.
Yes they did many many times they are well known for being his rebellious children but the words written were not done by mans accord it was always Holy Spirit inspired otherwise regardless of what language it can’t be called the word of God