Is the Hebrew Roots Movement a cult?

[Hizikyah]

Here's the thing:

You're not obeying. You're like the rich young ruler who said, "All these things I have obeyed . . . " and Jesus pointed out his idolatry - that of riches.

That is what the Law does - it points out that you lack - and you always will lack. The Law condemns, but the Spirit gives Life.

You may be obeying Feasts, days, and dietary laws (and maybe you grow a beard or sit niddah, depending on your gender), but you are not obeying the Law as God gave it.

-JGIG

So you spout a whole bunch of twisting Scripture, you get disproved at every turn, ignore all those replies then come back and tell me, "You're not obeying" How do you know anything I do in my life? You calim faith and love and then this, ok sure. You fruits expose you. How many people have you misled with your false doctrines and twisting of Scripture, you know teachers are held accountable. Why dont we all leave our egos aside and study Scripture as a whole and find truth?

 

[Hizikyah]

You're not obeying.

......

Tell the judge step aside, you got this!

 

[JGIG]

The OT was written in Hebrew except for portions of Daniel and Ezra, or 1% of the OT. The OT is 78% of the bible. Of the NT, 12% are quotations from the Hebrew OT. The OT is scripture.

Do you think the NT is Scripture? And in asking that I'm referring to the parts specifically that do not quote the OT.

-JGIG

 

[danschance]

Is that the same love contained and explained in the Law of Yahweh or is it different?

the Law of Yahweh was given through Mosheh see post 1792 & 1793.

Paul rote about which laws we are under. We, according to Paul are under the law of Christ. The mosaic laws have been fulfilled by Christ's death on the cross and that is way the curtain ripped in the temple.

I find it odd how you never point others forward. You direct others backward to the old covenant, not the new. Or am I wrong? You tell me.

 

[JGIG]

Christ is the final sacrifice, so don't listen to what God says when scripture speaks of feasts?

Yes, Christ is the FINAL Sacrifice.

The Feasts require sacrifices.

The Feasts point to Christ.

He has come.

Feasts obsolete.

We who are in Christ now rest in the Reality of Who He is and what He has accomplished.

We do not continue in the shadows which point Him.

This is sounding more and more like using any words to put down scripture.

Bull pucky.

Christ will win!!!

Yes, He will \o/!

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Are you saying that all the instructions that God has given us are sinful?

No, RedTent. Another baseless accusation.

A friend of mine recently put it this way:

My dear friend, I am not saying that there is something evil about the Law.
​

• 
  [*=1]By saying that the Law is “holy”, that word signifies that it is set apart for a special purpose, to show us our sin.
  [*=1]By saying that the Law is “just”, that word signifies that God is just in condemning us to His wrath.
  [*=1]By saying that the Law is “good”, that word signifies that the Law accomplishes the good purpose of showing us that in and of ourselves we can never accomplish all the demands of that law, and it thereby leads us to our need for Christ.

Scripture is trying so hard to explain to you that when you perform something of the law, it needs faith to make it effective.

When you "perform something of the Law, it needs faith to make it effective"?

Scripture, please. You keep saying your posts are "all about Scripture", yet in the last hundred posts or so, I've seen you post 2 verses. (Yes, I checked.)

So pony up with contextual Scripture to back up that claim.

An example is given in Isaiah. People had been told to sacrifice animals, they were told that in the same way we are told to go to Christ for forgiveness of sins. It was atonement, different, but a shadow. People who worshipped Baal sacrificed also, they did it for an entirely different reason. When the sacrifice they had been told about was done in the same way and for the same reasons that idol worshippers did, without any faith or love, they were told that sacrifice was hated.

Again, quote the actual Scriptural text. After seeing how you 'understand' posts and then regurgitate them on this forum, I'll take the actual texts and not your rendering of them, thank you very much.

And as for your statement, "An example is given in Isaiah. People had been told to sacrifice animals, they were told that in the same way we are told to go to Christ for forgiveness of sins."

No, we are not told that in the same way we go to Christ for the forgiveness of sins. Christ is not sacrificed over and over like the blood of bulls and goats; His Perfect Sacrifice was once for all people, for all time, for all sins.

To equate His Perfect Sacrifice with Old Covenant ritual is treating as an unholy thing the Blood of the New Covenant.

Without faith, it is truly impossible to please God, but it is impossible to please God if you won't listen to Him. Gal. and Rom. are trying their best to explain something to you, but it isn't against law, it is how to use it correctly.

How exactly are dead people supposed to 'use' law?

Both Romans and Galatians clearly teach that those in Christ have died to the Law and are alive unto Christ.

The Law has nothing more to do with us.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

No one at any time in any way has said anyone has "no need of Christ." How is it that you guys have law like a broken record in your minds? The HRM is about scripture, it is you guys who are about law. You should study it so you get the facts about it. You have learned it won't save, it shows a need for Christ, you have a little knowledge of it. It would be a good idea if you learned what those instructions in living that God gives are for and when to use them. It comes at the end of what you need to know, not, as you guys are doing, putting it at the beginning.

Kindly explain how Law teaches

those who are dead to it ​

how to live.​

​

Thanks.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

The entire chapter 7 of Hebrews is about the priesthood after the order of the Melchizedek (Malak Zadiq)

If isolated it can apper to be talking about the Law of Yahweh but when read in context it is talking about abolishing the Levitical priesthood, as the Jews still retained the "Levitical priesthood" until the destruction of the temple, and the writer of Hebrews was telling them the human priesthood was but a placeholder for the true intent, the High Priest Yahshua Messiah.

The letter to the Hebrews as a whole was all about the superiority of the New Covenant over the Old.

The change in Priesthood was key in that.

The change in Priesthood did not result in changes IN the Old Covenant (remember what you have been preaching . . . not one jot nor tittle shall fail), but a change OF the Covenant. The Old Covenant was rendered obsolete in Christ; as a functioning, covenantal system it was rendered inert - it's priesthood was ended.

It has not passed away, however, and still has a purpose - to point sinners to Christ.

That is the proper use of the Law.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

No what you present truly isn't about the cross. It is about law. "they had no law" speaking of the people wandering in the desert.

Did you actually think that God ever, ever, said to follow rules to be saved, that there was ever a time without grace? Are you teaching that? Are you teaching that what the Holy Spirit teaches is not the same as what the law teaches? You are teaching that Christ died for us, good for you, but along with that is teaching what scripture doesn't back up unless you read scripture without looking at every line as from one God, so you understand.

Why do you think I spend hours trying to report scripture? I want the message of the cross given to the world.

You've posted two Scriptures in over a hundred posts.

I hardly call that 'reporting Scripture'.

And you don't preach the Cross; you preach Law and how to "use Christ" when you sin, as if He were a bull or a goat.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Out with animal Sacrifices in with Messiah, out with Levites in with Messiah, does that abolish Laws or placeholders?

For those in Christ, absolutely. If it weren't so, we'd be just like anyone else in the world, with a works-based religion.

So how did you accept the true Passover Lamb if that Law was abolished 2,000 years ago?

Personally, I accepted Christ as my Savior when I was eight. I understood that Jesus is Righteous; I am not, and that because I'm not righteous, I can never reach God, but that because Jesus is Righteous, and did the work to reach God for me, if I put my faith in His Work, in Him, I could reach God. That's the simplified eight-year-old understanding of how I came to Christ with the faith of a child. It made perfect sense to me then (it still does now, too!), and I said, "Sign me up!"

It really is that simple.

Passover had nothing to do with it - Christ has everything to do with it.

Does Passover serve a purpose?

Yes, it points to Christ.

For me personally, Passover did not play a part in my conversion as a child. As an adult, I can see how Passover foreshadows the Work of Christ. But I rest in Christ, not the shadows.

And how is Messiah High Priest carrying out Intercessor duties if that Law is also abolished?

Messiah does not intercede on the basis of the Old Covenant, He intercedes on the basis if the New Covenant. The letter to the Hebrews details that truth very effectively.

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

16 “The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing their way into it.

17 It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.

​

The Law is intact: it is a comprehensive unit; it has not disappeared.

It has, however, been rendered obsolete in Christ. Again, the letter to the Hebrews makes this abundantly clear.

-JGIG

​

 

[JGIG]

There are people reading these threads, some are open to reading scripture. No one changes his view unless they are truly seeking truth and truth is presented. But when we stay absolutely true to scripture, when we are humble before the Lord and only answer in line with scripture, at least truth is being presented.

And how many times have you actually used Scripture in your posts?

Folks can click on your user-name and look at your 'recent posts' to find out (it's almost NEVER . . . two times, maybe, in the last HUNDRED posts or so . . . ).

-JGIG

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Right. The Greek used there is entole, not nomos.

Nomos is consistently used when referring to the Laws given to Israel at Sinai; entole is consistently used when referring to commandments that are not specifically Mosaic Covenant Law.


Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

You continue to err in defining commandments every time you see them in Scripture as the Laws given to Israel at Sinai.

-JGIG

Another huge difference.

In isaiah, the law or words written in stone is the testimony

In Rev, Christ is the testimony.

The testimony of the law condemns us, because we have failed to obey it

the testimony of Christ has saved us, Because he did what we were unable to do.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

All of you law harping people, if you are in Christ do you obey the law or don't you? Can you be in Christ as you are sinning?

Here we go.

If I sin, I must be outside of Christ, thus outside of eternal life.

Why do you continue to say you do not preach law for salvation, when everyone who reads your posts clearly sees that you do.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If this is the only word of instruction to us, do you advocate we throw out all other scripture containing suggestions for our living?

the law is the only word of instruction? Have you read the nt? There are MANY MANY instructions. In fact everything mentioned in stone is repeated in the NT and many things were added to the things written in stone.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If this is the only word of instruction to us, do you advocate we throw out all other scripture containing suggestions for our living?

the law is the only word of instruction? Have you read the nt? There are MANY MANY instructions. In fact everything mentioned in stone is repeated in the NT and many things were added to the things written in stone.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Is that the same love contained and explained in the Law of Yahweh or is it different?

the Law of Yahweh was given through Mosheh see post 1792 & 1793.

It is given by Christ.

In fact he made it more clear. Saying that yes adutry is a sin, But if you even look at a woman with lust you have sinned.

That is why the law can not make us righteous, or show us how.

 

[JGIG]

Are we to believe? Yes of course, with faith all is worthless

Messiah and Shaul disagree.

Mattithyah 22:37-40, "Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Shaul clearly understands what the Messiah means and explains it here:

Romans 13:9, "For the commandments: You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not bring false testimony, You shall not covet, and all other commandments are briefly summed up in these Laws; namely: You must love your neighbor as yourself."

All as in even the ones he didn't list...

Try breaking Leviticus 19:17 and still be loving your neighbor according to Messiah.

And try breaking the 4th Commandment and still be loving Yahweh.

Exodus 20:6, "But showing love to thousands who love Me by keeping My Laws."

Deuteronomy 10:12-13, "And now, O Israyl, what does Yahweh your Father require of you, but to reverence Yahweh your Father by walking in all His ways, by loving Him, by serving Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul. By keeping the Laws of Yahweh, with His statutes, which I command you this day, so that you may be blessed?"

1 Yahchanan 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yahweh: When we love Yahweh by keeping His Laws. For this is the love of Yahweh: That we keep His Law, and His Law is not grievous."

Mattithyah 22:37, "Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might."

you oversimplify and turn truth in the doctrine spoken of in

You overcomplicate and make the Gospel into no gospel at all.

Yahdah (Jude) 1:4, "4 For there are certain men who have secretly crept in, who were before of old ordained for this condemnation, unholy men, who turn the undeserved pardon of our One Supreme Savior Yahweh into licentiousness, and deny Yahshua our Messiah."

Document one time where I or anyone else defending the Gospel of Grace has said that Grace is a way to get away with sinning. Just one.

You won't find one. We recognize that the Law stirs up sin as the Scriptures say and that Grace actually results in sinning less and less.

Sinning more or less is not the focus, however, but the fruit of Grace, because the less focused we become on ourselves (which is what Law does), the more focused we become on Christ (which is what Grace does) and when we are focused on Christ, sinning becomes less and less in our lives.

Simple.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Romans 10:1-4
Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of

>>> God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, <<<

have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the >>> end G5056 – telos <<< of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
​

Christ as the end of the Law:

G5056 – telos
1) end
​

a) termination, the limit at which a thing ceases to be (always of the end of some act or state, but not of the end of a period of time)
b) the end
​

1) the last in any succession or series
2) eternal​

c) that by which a thing is finished, its close, issue
d) the end to which all things relate, the aim, purpose ​

2) toll, custom (i.e. indirect tax on goods)
​

End, in this case, simply means end.

​

End of the Law for those in Christ.

A simple translation for the linguist guys.

But the HRM has to take meaning ’1d’ to try to force a meaning into the text. Even then, their attempt falls short, as the
Law points to Christ:

>>>>>>>>>> . . . He . . . Christ . . . <<<<<<<<
​

. . . is the end (the end to which all things relate, the aim, purpose) of the Law, not the Law is the end of Christ!

The Law points to Christ, Christ does not point to the Law!
For those in Christ, the Law is abolished, and those in Christ
are released from the Law, having died to it!
(Rom. 10:4, Rom. 7:1-6, Eph. 2, Col. 2)
​

-JGIG

Didnt we go over this yesterday?

If telos means the end of the Law there it means the end of the Lord here:

James 5:11, "Behold, we call them blessed that endured: ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end (telos) of the Lord, how that the Lord is full of pity, and merciful."

and the end of faith here:

1Peter 1:9, "Receiving the end (telos) of your faith, even the salvation of your souls."

Nope, you have been fooled by faulty translation.

Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)

HELPS Word-studies - 5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.


Romans 10:4, "For Christ is the end (telos) of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."

Romans 10:4, "For Yahshua is the ultimate result (telos) of the Law unto righteousness for everyone who believes."

1Peter 1:9, "Receiving the end (telos) of your faith, even the salvation of your souls."

1 Kepha (Peter) 1:9, "Receiving the ultimate result (telos) of your faith--the salvation of your souls."

If the its the end of the Law aka Law is done away in Romans 10:4 then faith must also be done away in 1 Kepha (Peter) 1:9. Unless of course telos means the goal.

Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)

HELPS Word-studies - 5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.

James 5:11, "Behold, we call them blessed that endured: ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end (telos) of the Lord, how that the Lord is full of pity, and merciful."

Yaaqob (James) 5:11, "Behold, we regard as blessed those who endure. You have heard of the patience of Iyyob, and have seen the ultimate result of Yahweh: that Yahweh is very compassionate and merciful."

Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)

HELPS Word-studies - 5056 télos (a neuter noun) – properly, consummation (the end-goal, purpose), such as closure with all its results.

Yes, and you continue to ignore context when interpreting the meaning of a word.

And as clearly stated in my post, even if you go with your definition of 'end', "the end goal, purpose", Christ is the end goal of the Law, it points to/leads to Christ - where it ends - not the other way around. You're proceeding as if the Law is the end goal of Christ - that the Law ends up as the focus of Christ, when that isn't the case at all.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.​

If you are in Christ, are you righteous or unrighteous?

What does the Word say?

Check out 2 Cor. 5:16-21. Romans 5. Hebrews 10.

-JGIG

To know if we are in Messiah or not one would have to consult all the Scriptures concerning that matter, not just the one that says, "there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus"

None of the verses I quoted are the "there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" verse. That's found in Romans 8:1. Great verse, though!

No, the verses I quoted are ones that say that in Christ we are the very righteousness of God and that in Christ we are Holy. And the Law was not given to the righteous, but to the unrighteous. Look them up: 2 Cor. 5:16-21. Romans 5. Hebrews 10.

1 Yahchanan (John) 2:3-6, "Now by this we do know that we know Him: If we keep His Laws. He who says: I know Him, but does not keep His Law, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His Law, in him truly is the love of Yahweh perfected: by this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him, is himself also obligated to walk exactly as He walked."

AGAIN, you are universally defining God's law/commandments as the laws given to Israel at Sinai. There were commandments before Sinai and there were commandments after Sinai.

God's commandments after Sinai? Believe on the One God has sent and love one another. (1 Jn. 3:23)

In the very next chapter we read this:

13 By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.

17 By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment,

because as he is so also are we in this world.

18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. 19 We love because he first loved us. (from 1 Jn. 4)

​

-JGIG

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You overcomplicate and make the Gospel into no gospel at all.



Document one time where I or anyone else defending the Gospel of Grace has said that Grace is a way to get away with sinning. Just one.

You won't find one. We recognize that the Law stirs up sin as the Scriptures say and that Grace actually results in sinning less and less.

Sinning more or less is not the focus, however, but the fruit of Grace, because the less focused we become on ourselves (which is what Law does), the more focused we become on Christ (which is what Grace does) and when we are focused on Christ, sinning becomes less and less in our lives.

Simple.

-JGIG

Thats there fall back excuse. We see the law for why it was given. And do not put ourself under it anymore. thus we must be wanting to excuse our sin.'