Jesus and Wine

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Jabberjaw

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2014
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Drunkards...a harsh word, sounds like some real bad characters them drunkards, ganged up with some thieves, extortioners etc...I don't know about you, Sir, but I do not believe that the Lord would consider a person drinking a beer or a glass of wine a drunkard...and...judging from your Bible reading I'd rather not steal anymore of your time...you might could find me to be a thief...
Show me where Jesus tells us how many beers, how many shots, how many glasses or bottles of wine, where He considers you drunk, and I will show you bunches of verses that say to abstain...

besides, we can use your analogy, first another look at the verse:

1 Corinthians 6:10 (NKJV)
10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

How much must one steal to become a thief?, how much do you need to covet to be covetous, how much reviling must one do to be a reviler? how much must one extort to be an extortioner? then after you do that, tell me how much one must drink to be a drunkard?
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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I didn't threaten anyone, the bible did, please don't mislead people from what the bible teaches in attempt to support your drinking, you can read it for yourself but you won't so I will post it for you :

1 Corinthians 6:10 (NKJV)
10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

Now if you can direct me to the verse where Jesus tells you at how many beers, wine, etc... that one can have before He considers you "drunk" I would love to see it, until you produce that verse you chance you know, can tell by feel, and lead people to think they or you can with no biblical support...

Don't tell me I have no biblical support, I have plenty (even just given you one) that support abstinence, you on the other hand are the one that cannot provide biblical support, but only opinion at what point our Lord calls you drunk!
the Biblical definition of being drunk is staggering, vomiting, " they hit me but I did not feel it", incoherent speech. these are mentioned several places in the O.T. so maybe YOU should do a little reading before posting COMMANDS THAT ARE NOT IN THE BIBLE. thought shat not drink. NOT IN THERE. end of subject.
 

Jabberjaw

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2014
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Ephesians 5:18 - And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

Leviticus 10:9 - Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: [it shall be] a statute for ever throughout your generations:

( Here he tells them they are only forbidden to drink before they go into the tabernacle. )

Psalm 104:15
And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart.

Judges 13:7 - But he said unto me, Behold, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and now drink no wine nor strong drink, neither eat any unclean [thing]: for the child shall be a Nazarite to God from the womb to the day of his death.

Jeremiah 35:5-8 - And I set before the sons of the house of the Rechabites pots full of wine, and cups, and I said unto them, Drink ye wine.


Isaiah 55:1 - Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

Proverbs 31:6 - Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.


1 Peter 4:3 - For the time past of [our] life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:


I am not sure this supports your POV, all of the places you see "yayin" or "oinos" (of which can be either fermented or not), the context shows (which must be used to distinguish) to not drink, all the ones that refer to shekar (strong drink) are surly shunned.
 

Jabberjaw

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2014
1,039
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the Biblical definition of being drunk is staggering, vomiting, " they hit me but I did not feel it", incoherent speech. these are mentioned several places in the O.T. so maybe YOU should do a little reading before posting COMMANDS THAT ARE NOT IN THE BIBLE. thought shat not drink. NOT IN THERE. end of subject.
Show me, Yayin can be either fermented or not and context is required, shekar is strong drink and is never condoned... everywhere (old testament or new) the use of intoxicating drink is shunned or attached to sin in the context.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
12,757
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Show me, Yayin can be either fermented or not and context is required, shekar is strong drink and is never condoned... everywhere (old testament or new) the use of intoxicating drink is shunned or attached to sin in the context.
non-responsive to what I posted.
 

Jabberjaw

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2014
1,039
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non-responsive to what I posted.
Like your last post, nothing but opinion, you say your expletives are presented all through the O.T. yet no biblical reference.

Pick a verse and lets study it! (I have a lot to do today but I will entertain a one on one study of what ever verse you chose)
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
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gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
12,757
7,017
113
Like your last post, nothing but opinion, you say your expletives are presented all through the O.T. yet no biblical reference.

Pick a verse and lets study it! (I have a lot to do today but I will entertain a one on one study of what ever verse you chose)[/

see, this is what I mean: someone who does not know the Bible spouting off like they are an expert. o.k. Noah drank wine and passed out. so there is an example of drunkenness : passing out. people do not pass out after one or two drinks.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Show me where Jesus tells us how many beers, how many shots, how many glasses or bottles of wine, where He considers you drunk, and I will show you bunches of verses that say to abstain...

besides, we can use your analogy, first another look at the verse:

1 Corinthians 6:10 (NKJV)
10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

How much must one steal to become a thief?, how much do you need to covet to be covetous, how much reviling must one do to be a reviler? how much must one extort to be an extortioner? then after you do that, tell me how much one must drink to be a drunkard?
Stealing and drinking a glass of wine are not comparable......!
 
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God does not make bad or evil, well the bible would not agree with you;

Proverbs 16:4
The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil.

Yes I did answer you on what you said. You have misguided blame, for you would be blaming Christ for their misuse of alcohol.
Obviously you are not a wine drinker, or you would know that you can taste the difference in the quality of wines.
I don't know where you are getting the rest of your words for wine here now, because there was only one word used for wine here and that was oinos, which I agree could be unfermented or fermented.
The easy way to solve this which some don't like to do is look at Jewish tradition from that time, because looking into Jewish tradition at that time would end up ruling out unfermented wine.

I will just say be careful using the septuagint and lexicons, and use in depth study besides those sources because there are well known translation errors in them and miss defined meaning of words.
God is perfectly sinless and holy and cannot have anything to do with evil, cannot make evil....it's against His nature to do so.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.
Prov 16:2
All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits.
Prov 16:3
Commit thy works unto the LORD, and thy thoughts shall be established.
Prov 16:4
The LORD hath made all things for himself (ma'aneh): yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

In verse 4, mn'aneh means to give an answer, give a response. So verse 4 means all things must give an answer to God, even the wicked. Verse 1 says man can make hi sown plans. Verse 2 says man can choose his own ways. Verse 3 man can choose hi sow works/actions and verse 4 is saying man will give an answer to God for the plans, ways, actions he has chosen eventhe wicked wil give an answer to God for what he did.



The OT and Christ's own NT would condemn Christ if He made fermented wine to contribute to the furtherance of the guests drunkenness.
I used the LXX to show the Greek word onios can mean either fermented or unfermented wine.

 
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If I may add to your post...

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
There are different kinds of evil in the OT as moral evil, sickness is called evil and in Isa 45:7 the evil refers to calamity, disaster.
"Peace" is beng contrasted to "evil" so God creates peace and creates calamity NOT moral evil.
 
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OK, scripture please.

Wine in Jn 2 is from the Greek word onios that can mean UNfermented wine. Furthermore, Christ would have been a hypocrite and sinner if He created fermented wine and contributing to the drunkenness of others. CHrist would ahve violated His own NT that says Christians are to be sober, nepho, abstain.
 
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while that satisfies the abolitionist - and the carnal show of feigned morality that demands 'touch not, taste not, handle not', it doesn't jive with scripture.

Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse:
[but] thou hast kept the good wine until now.


it is like you say, God creates what is good - even the scripture - and men pervert it to their own ends.

Gen 1, in the beginning God did NOT create fermented wine but created grapes full of grape juice.
 
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Re: Jesus and Wine: What do you want to force the scriptures to mean.

David spoke in Hebrew. Paul in Greek. we're looking at a Greek word here, and specifically a Greek word Paul used, to understand what he meant by it.

you didn't address a single verse i brought up. . ?
why? is it not profitable?

THe LXX is the OT in Greek and in this Greek OT David said his cup methuo...his cup overflowed, was full and NOT drunk.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
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Wine in Jn 2 is from the Greek word onios that can mean UNfermented wine. Furthermore, Christ would have been a hypocrite and sinner if He created fermented wine and contributing to the drunkenness of others. CHrist would ahve violated His own NT that says Christians are to be sober, nepho, abstain.
Sorry, but your opinions don't persuade me in light of scripture posted to the contrary.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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Re: Jesus and Wine: What do you want to force the scriptures to mean.

So you are saying that, contrary to Paul's words, those that consumed all of the bread and wine neither consumed all of the bread nor were any of them drunk off the communion wine. So what happened when they showed up early, was Paul wrong in what they ate and drank, and was he wrong that when others showed up, some were drunk, and others went hungry as a result?
I am saying that in 1 Cor 11:21 that the word "drunken (KJV) would be better translated "full". For Paul is contrasting "hungry" or empty to "full", some had nothing to eat while others were full.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
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Re: Jesus and Wine: What do you want to force the scriptures to mean.

I am saying that in 1 Cor 11:21 that the word "drunken (KJV) would be better translated "full". For Paul is contrasting "hungry" or empty to "full", some had nothing to eat while others were full.
1Co 11:21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.
1Co 11:22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

He is talking about eating AND DRINKING. He is talking about some having drunk to excess...

The word for drunken in verse 21 is...

G3184

μεθύω
methuō
meth-oo'-o
From another form of G3178; to drink to intoxication, that is, get drunk: - drink well, make (be) drunk (-en).
Total KJV occurrences: 7
 
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Re: Jesus and Wine: What do you want to force the scriptures to mean.

Jesus said that John the Baptist came neither eating bread or drinking wine, and that the religious of the time discredited John the Baptist and his teachings because they said he had a demon. Jesus then said that He came eating and drinking(without restrictions other than not being drunk), and that the religious of His time discredited Him, and His teachings because His actions proved Him to be, in their opinion, a drunkard and a glutton. Didn't Jesus know about drunkenness? Did Jesus not know about causing people to stumble? Did the Son of man not care that His lack of restrictions could cause many people to drink alcohol?

I do understand the religious desire to set strict limits on those in ministry drinking alcohol. Unfortunately, by their beliefs, many people would do the same as the religious leaders of His day, and would claim any such person was unfit to work in their Christian ministry.

Mt 11:18,19 "For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children."

The phrase "
eating and drinking" are both being used figuratively to describe the lifestyles of John And Jesus.

John came NEITHER eating or drinking does not literally mean John ate and drank nothing but figuratively describe his reclusive lifestyle.

Jesus came eating and drinking does not refer to what He literally ate and drank but figuratively describes his sociable lifestyle.

It is very much a stretch and huge assumption to imply this means Jesus drank fermented drinks.
 
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Mar 12, 2014
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Re: Jesus and Wine: What do you want to force the scriptures to mean.

While I understand that it is your desire to believe that the early Christians did not drink regular wine at the Lords supper, and that the word does not mean drunken, it does appear that the usage is as I claimed. Here are all the places where the word is used. Pick a meaning that fits everywhere the word is used, in the context in which it is found... If you want truth, that is. :

Mat_24:49 and begins[SUP]G757[/SUP] to beat[SUP]G5180[/SUP] his fellow[SUP]G4889[/SUP] slaves[SUP]G4889[/SUP] and eat[SUP]G2068[/SUP] and drink[SUP]G4095[/SUP] with drunkards[SUP]G3184[/SUP];
Joh_2:10 and *said[SUP]G3004[/SUP] to him, "Every[SUP]G3956[/SUP] man[SUP]G444[/SUP] serves[SUP]G5087[/SUP] the good[SUP]G2570[/SUP] wine[SUP]G3631[/SUP] first[SUP]G4413[/SUP], and when[SUP]G3752[/SUP] the people [SUP]R1[/SUP]have [SUP]N1[/SUP]drunk[SUP]G3184[/SUP] freely[SUP]G3184[/SUP], then he serves the poorer[SUP]G1640[/SUP] wine; but you have kept[SUP]G5083[/SUP] the good[SUP]G2570[/SUP] wine[SUP]G3631[/SUP] until[SUP]G2193[/SUP] now[SUP]G737[/SUP]."
Act_2:15 "For these[SUP]G3778[/SUP] men[SUP]G3778[/SUP] are not drunk[SUP]G3184[/SUP], as you suppose[SUP]G5274[/SUP], [SUP]R1[/SUP]for it is only the [SUP]N1[/SUP]third[SUP]G5154[/SUP] hour[SUP]G5610[/SUP] of the day[SUP]G2250[/SUP];
1Co_11:21 for in your eating[SUP]G2068[/SUP] each[SUP]G1538[/SUP] one[SUP]G1538[/SUP] takes[SUP]G4301[/SUP] his own[SUP]G2398[/SUP] supper[SUP]G1173[/SUP] first[SUP]G4301[/SUP]; and one[SUP]G3739 G3303a[/SUP] is hungry[SUP]G3983[/SUP] and [SUP]R1[/SUP]another[SUP]G3739 G1161[/SUP] is drunk[SUP]G3184[/SUP].
1Th_5:7 For those[SUP]G3588[/SUP] who sleep[SUP]G2518[/SUP] do[SUP]G2518[/SUP] their sleeping[SUP]G2518[/SUP] at night[SUP]G3571[/SUP], and those[SUP]G3588[/SUP] who get[SUP]G3182[/SUP] drunk[SUP]G3182[/SUP] get[SUP]G3184[/SUP] [SUP]R1[/SUP]drunk[SUP]G3184[/SUP] at night[SUP]G3571[/SUP].
Rev_17:2 with whom[SUP]G3739[/SUP] [SUP]R1[/SUP]the kings[SUP]G935[/SUP] of the earth[SUP]G1093[/SUP] committed[SUP]G4203[/SUP] acts of immorality[SUP]G4203[/SUP], and [SUP]R2[/SUP]those[SUP]G3588[/SUP] who dwell[SUP]G2730[/SUP] on the earth[SUP]G1093[/SUP] were [SUP]R3[/SUP]made[SUP]G3184[/SUP] drunk[SUP]G3184[/SUP] with the wine[SUP]G3631[/SUP] of her immorality[SUP]G4202[/SUP]."
Rev_17:6 And I saw[SUP]G3708[/SUP] the woman[SUP]G1135[/SUP] drunk[SUP]G3184[/SUP] with [SUP]R1[/SUP]the blood[SUP]G129[/SUP] of the [SUP]N1[/SUP]saints[SUP]G40[/SUP], and with the blood[SUP]G129[/SUP] of the witnesses[SUP]G3144[/SUP] of Jesus[SUP]G2424[/SUP]. When I saw[SUP]G3708[/SUP] her, I wondered[SUP]G2296[/SUP] [SUP]N2[/SUP]greatly[SUP]G2295 G3173[/SUP].

Here’s the Strong’s definition: G3184
μεθύω
methuō
meth-oo'-o
From another form of G3178; to drink to intoxication, that is, get drunk: - drink well, make (be) drunk (-en).
Total KJV occurrences: 7

Here's another one from a different Greek Dictionary:G3184
μεθύωmethuō; from μέθυmethu (wine); to be drunken: - drunk (3), drunk freely (1), drunkards (1), get drunk (1), made drunk (1).

Am I saying that you can't completely change the meaning to fit what you want to believe? Of course not. There are tons of religious groups that do not like consistent meaning and that change the meaning whenever what was said doesn't match what they want to believe. Of course, you then have to accept that the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses ... and ton's of others can hold to their private interpretations as well.

As it stands though, those that showed up early to the Lord's supper and drank all the wine and ate all the bread were drunk, and those that showed up later went hungry. And there is no lambasting of the participants for not using non-alcoholic grape juice.

The broader, generic meaning of methuo is to be full, satiated the more narrow meaning of the word is drunken.
Context would determine the meaning and in 1 Cor 11:21 Paul is contrasting empty (hungry) to methuo, that is, contrasting empty to full.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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For the stumbling crowd, there are those that might stumble if you play cards, watch TV or any movies, who listen to rock music ... there are those that might be tempted to gluttony by your ham sandwich at lunch, and who believe that eating the pork in the sandwich is a sin. I knew a guy who felt that anyone leaving a wallet, purse, any valuables out ... was an almost unbearable temptation. (He's in jail now because someone caused him to stumble.)

The problem is that we are creating meaning that isn't present in the text. People are converting from paganism. They used to believe that the idols were real God's. People at those pagan temples were selling the meat from the temple sacrifices really cheap. Christians who were "mature" i.e knowing good from evil just bought the cheap meat knowing that idols aren't anything at all. The problem is that the new converts really aren't sure. Because they aren't sure, some of them were "testing" these mature Christians by telling them that the meat they were being served was sacrificed to idols.

First, there is no admonition NOT TO BUY MEAT SACRIFICED TO IDOLS. Second there is no admonition NOT TO EAT MEAT SACRIFICED TO IDOLS. Third, even if the person serving the meat might be one of those "weak" Christians, IF THEY DO NOT SAY ANYTHING, eat what is placed before you. THIS IS NOT ABOUT STOPPING EVERYTHING THAT ANYONE MIGHT FIND QUESTIONABLE OR OFFENSIVE.

To apply this to alcohol, go ahead and buy what you want, and imbibe in what you want. (Just as being a glutton with the meat sacrificed to idols is not mentioned, but applies, assume that being drunk applies here as well.) Now, let's change the situation some. You run a halfway house where drunks come to dry out. The Holy Spirit, through you, wins a few of them to the Lord. A year later you decide to have 5 of them over for Thanksgiving dinner. You go to each one of them and ask, "Do you believe drinking alcohol is a sin for you." You get the following answers:


(1) Not only is it a sin for me, it is a sin for any Christian to drink any alcohol at any time, even in cough syrup.
When asked if they would be tempted, in any way, to do what they believe to be sin, they say emphatically, NO!

(3) Yes, drinking any alcohol would be a sin for me, but it is not a sin for anyone else.
(1) No, it's not a sin for me or anyone. I am no longer an addict, and wouldn't mind a glass of red wine. I like Cabernets.
(1) I believe it would be a sin for me to drink, and I am still having struggles.

So what does a Christian do? He does not serve alcohol for thanksgiving. Why? Because there is ONE PERSON who might be tempted to do something they believe to be sin showing up for dinner.

So Thanksgiving comes around and the one person who might have been tempted to do something they believe is sin is sick and can't make it. What do I do? I make sure that I have a nice bottle of burgundy for myself, a white for my wife, and a Cabernet for my other guest.

Apply the same thing to watching movies, playing cards, drinking coffee(Mormon converts) ...

Keep in mind that Jesus said that He came eating and drinking without restrictions (other than He was never drunk), and for this reason the "religious" were claiming that He was a glutton and a drunkard. Jesus didn't care two hoots about the fact that there were some "religious" people discrediting Him over His unrestricted usage of food and drink.

If we are "Christlike", and you are offended that any Christians would ever drink alcohol and would want nothing to do with them, then you can start with Jesus Himself. Then, since those showing up early to the Lord's supper who drank all the wine got drunk, you can discredit everyone in the first century church, including the writers of scripture.

1 Pet 5:8 "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:"

The underlying Greek word for sober is nepho and literally means 'not drink' and carries the idea of abstinence.


1 Pet 4:3 "
For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:"

Excess of wine, revellings, banquetings represent three varying degress of drunkenness.

Excess of wine means to much wine to a point od being in a stupor, or pass out.
Revellings is a wild party where one drinks enough not to pass out but lose his inhibitions, a good "buzz" so to speak.
Banquetings simply means to drink, no set amount attached to it. It can refer to a small amount as in a cup (Mt 10:42)

In the context Peter condemns all three.