Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

[ewq1938]

I just made a similar comment. We are on the same wavelength lol.

Yup!

 

[FreeGrace2]

RAPTURE > MARRIAGE SUPPER IN HEAVEN> SECOND COMING TO EARTH

Those who miss the RAPTURE will go through the TRIBULATION ON EARTH

The verses you quote after this don't say anything about what you just posted.

Since 2 Thess 2:1 clearly shows the rapture occurring at the Second Advent, no believer will miss the rapture. If a rapture occurs before the trib, then ALL the people evangelized and saved during the trib, and we know there will be trib martyrs from Rev 20:5, will miss the wedding supper if it's in heaven before the Second Advent. That alone doesn't make sense.

There is nothing in Rev 19 about the wedding supper actually taking place. The wording clearly indicates preparation for it, immediately followed by Christ getting on a white horse for the battle of Armageddon.

1 Thessalonians
4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We see they shall be caught up into Heaven to......

Please kindly show me the exact words about "shall be caught up INTO HEAVEN TO...". I just can't find them.

Revelation
19:5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

See what I mean? When something is just about to happen, one can say "it is come", like a train, or plane, etc. And the Bride "has made herself READY. See: Preparation. v.8 mentions the customs of Jesus' day. The groom's father provided wedding clothes for the guests.

The previously raptured ones have been arrayed in fine white linen, attended the marriage supper, and are now ready to return to Earth with Christ at His Second Coming...

You're only assuming the Bride in Rev 19 has been "previously raptured". And that notion is knocked out by the fact that if true, none of the trib martyrs would be able to be at the wedding supper.

It occurs on earth AFTER Jesus returns to end the Trib and sets up His kingdom. That way, EVERY believer from Adam on will be at that wedding supper.

19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
19:12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Yep. This is the Second Advent. After getting all the dead saints in heaven prepared for the wedding supper, Jesus leads them all to earth, where their physical bodies will be resurrected, and the living believers will be changed in the twinkling of an eye. And All will enjoy the wedding supper.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Right. There are no verses that show Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.

The phrase "together they shall ASCEND into" isn't found in the Bible.

There are no verses that show Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.

And no verses say that resurrected and raptured believers will ASCEND at all.

The verses do say that they shall be with the Lord forever. Nothing about ascending or going to heaven, as is so commonly presumed.

No games...i presented the concept i did not quote the exact words.

I understand that fully. The reason you didn't "quote the exact words" is precisely the point. There are NO "precise words" that describe Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven. That has been the whole point for this thread. The rapture occurs at the Second Advent, after the Tribulation.

1 THESSALONIANS 4:16 KJV "For the Lord himself shall descend ...
www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1-Thessalonians-4-16
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Spend some time in the Bible.

Don't worry. I have. How about 2 decades of reading through the NT monthly? Does that qualify for spending "some time in the Bible" as you have suggested? I think it does.

Now, if you can actually "quote the exact words" from the Bible where Jesus takes resurrected and raptured believers to heaven, please be my guest.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The reason so much disagreement and con·tro·ver·sy in Bible discussion because the new age religion folks have slanted the meaning by using different words...just enough....in the new versions......to cause arguments.

Then quote from your fav older translation that proves that Jesus takes resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I have always been under the understanding that the marriage supper occurs after the rapture bringing all saved to attend. If this is a conflict I will look it up.

Please read Rev 20:5. There will be trib martyrs who will be resurrected and "reign with Christ 1,000 years. So if the rapture occurs before the Trib, then NONE of these martyred saints will be at the wedding supper.

Do you really believe that?

 

[Runningman]

The letters to the Churches in Revelations are for all of us.

Yes and no. There are specific instructions for those churches. Doesn't mean we can't learn lessons from them. In a sense, it's a picture of the unified church, but with individual congregations that have their own nuances and personalities complete with rebukes and praises.

For example, according to Revelation 2:10, they will have tribulation 10 days. That doesnt apply to your church up the street. However, you may be able to learn from this by understanding that in tribulation you must have grounded faith, hope, and endurance.

 

[FreeGrace2]

This is correct. Those who miss the Rapture will also miss the Marriage Supper. This is what the we see in Revelation 19.

Wrong. There is nothing about the wedding actually taking place in Rev 19. That's just more presumption. What we do see is PREPARATION for the wedding. And then immediately we see Jesus on a white horse leading all the dead saints already in heaven to earth. That's where the wedding supper occurs.

Can you explain why there would be a wedding IMMEDIATELY before Jesus comes back at the Second Advent (that's your view of Rev 19) when all the trib martyrs are resurrected when He gets to earth, but then they all miss the wedding?

 

[FreeGrace2]

ewq1938 said:
You left something out:

I left nothing out.

Then you didn't read anything he wrote.

 

[Runningman]

Wrong. There is nothing about the wedding actually taking place in Rev 19. That's just more presumption. What we do see is PREPARATION for the wedding. And then immediately we see Jesus on a white horse leading all the dead saints already in heaven to earth. That's where the wedding supper occurs.

Can you explain why there would be a wedding IMMEDIATELY before Jesus comes back at the Second Advent (that's your view of Rev 19) when all the trib martyrs are resurrected when He gets to earth, but then they all miss the wedding?

One of the numerous irreconcilable conundrums of the pre-trib rapture theory.

 

[Jocund]

The reason so much disagreement and con·tro·ver·sy in Bible discussion because the new age religion folks have slanted the meaning by using different words...just enough....in the new versions......to cause arguments.

I agree. Pretrib rapture is a new age concept.

TPT has a great scholarly take on the passages that new age folk like to try to use in support of their view of pretrib rapture:

"Then we who are alive will join them, transported together[a] in clouds[b] to have an encounter[c]with the Lord in the air,[d] and we will be forever joined with the Lord." - 1 Thes 4:17 TPT


Footnotes

1. 4:17 Or “caught up together.” The Greek word harpazō is used as a figure of speech in Greek literature during the time Paul wrote this letter. The book of Enoch and the Dead Sea Scrolls use the same Greek word and imagery to describe spiritual victory, not a “rapture.” The word can describe being caught up in the victory of Christ’s unveiling. Also, there are Jewish apocalyptic texts that use the same phrasing as Paul’s writings but have nothing to do with a physical rapture.
2. 4:17 There is no definite article before clouds. It is literally “in clouds.” Where the identifying article is missing, it often speaks of quality, or it is used as a descriptive term. The Greek word for “cloud” is often used in the Greek classics of a large body of individuals, and it is so used in this symbolic way in Heb. 12:1–2, speaking of the “great witnesses who encircle us like clouds.”
3. 4:17 The Greek word apantēsisis not a verb (go to meet) but a feminine noun (a meeting or an encounter), and in this context it is the bride of Christ rising to be with Jesus to have an encounter or “[bridal] meeting.” This rarely used Greek word is also used in the parable of the ten virgins, referring to the virgins rising up to meet (have a meeting) with the bridegroom. See Matt. 25:1, 6.
4. 4:17 This is the Greek word aerand is not the sky, but the air around us. See Eph. 2:2 where it is also used not in a literal sense.

 

[Absolutely]

The verses you quote after this don't say anything about what you just posted.

Since 2 Thess 2:1 clearly shows the rapture occurring at the Second Advent, no believer will miss the rapture. If a rapture occurs before the trib, then ALL the people evangelized and saved during the trib, and we know there will be trib martyrs from Rev 20:5, will miss the wedding supper if it's in heaven before the Second Advent. That alone doesn't make sense.

There is nothing in Rev 19 about the wedding supper actually taking place. The wording clearly indicates preparation for it, immediately followed by Christ getting on a white horse for the battle of Armageddon.


Please kindly show me the exact words about "shall be caught up INTO HEAVEN TO...". I just can't find them.


See what I mean? When something is just about to happen, one can say "it is come", like a train, or plane, etc. And the Bride "has made herself READY. See: Preparation. v.8 mentions the customs of Jesus' day. The groom's father provided wedding clothes for the guests.


You're only assuming the Bride in Rev 19 has been "previously raptured". And that notion is knocked out by the fact that if true, none of the trib martyrs would be able to be at the wedding supper.

It occurs on earth AFTER Jesus returns to end the Trib and sets up His kingdom. That way, EVERY believer from Adam on will be at that wedding supper.


Yep. This is the Second Advent. After getting all the dead saints in heaven prepared for the wedding supper, Jesus leads them all to earth, where their physical bodies will be resurrected, and the living believers will be changed in the twinkling of an eye. And All will enjoy the wedding supper.

"""Please kindly show me the exact words about "shall be caught up INTO HEAVEN TO...". I just can't find them."""

They , the church, are there in heaven during the trib.
Jesus declared it at the last supper.
Rev 19 has them there as well as they are called the wife....IN HEAVEN.

Rev 14 has JESUS SITTING ON A CLOUD, SICKLE IN HAND, GATHERING HIS PEOPLE TO HEAVEN, NO HORSES, NO POSTRIB UTURN.

You get owned by all that.

Old man gets off the bus and sits on a park bench.

You; "no he didn't. Nowhere on the bus did it say 'bus' nor was the bench labeled 'bench' "

 

[Absolutely]

I agree. Pretrib rapture is a new age concept.

TPT has a great scholarly take on the passages that new age folk like to try to use in support of their view of pretrib rapture:

"Then we who are alive will join them, transported together[a] in clouds[b] to have an encounter[c]with the Lord in the air,[d] and we will be forever joined with the Lord." - 1 Thes 4:17 TPT


Footnotes

1. 4:17 Or “caught up together.” The Greek word harpazō is used as a figure of speech in Greek literature during the time Paul wrote this letter. The book of Enoch and the Dead Sea Scrolls use the same Greek word and imagery to describe spiritual victory, not a “rapture.” The word can describe being caught up in the victory of Christ’s unveiling. Also, there are Jewish apocalyptic texts that use the same phrasing as Paul’s writings but have nothing to do with a physical rapture.
2. 4:17 There is no definite article before clouds. It is literally “in clouds.” Where the identifying article is missing, it often speaks of quality, or it is used as a descriptive term. The Greek word for “cloud” is often used in the Greek classics of a large body of individuals, and it is so used in this symbolic way in Heb. 12:1–2, speaking of the “great witnesses who encircle us like clouds.”
3. 4:17 The Greek word apantēsisis not a verb (go to meet) but a feminine noun (a meeting or an encounter), and in this context it is the bride of Christ rising to be with Jesus to have an encounter or “[bridal] meeting.” This rarely used Greek word is also used in the parable of the ten virgins, referring to the virgins rising up to meet (have a meeting) with the bridegroom. See Matt. 25:1, 6.
4. 4:17 This is the Greek word aerand is not the sky, but the air around us. See Eph. 2:2 where it is also used not in a literal sense.

"""I agree. Pretrib rapture is a new age concept"""

We own the debate.
You can not go toe to toe.
That is why you carry the interaction into the extra biblical.

You cant win in your message so you go after the messengers.

In fact you have no verses at all.

 

[Absolutely]

I agree. Pretrib rapture is a new age concept.

TPT has a great scholarly take on the passages that new age folk like to try to use in support of their view of pretrib rapture:

"Then we who are alive will join them, transported together[a] in clouds[b] to have an encounter[c]with the Lord in the air,[d] and we will be forever joined with the Lord." - 1 Thes 4:17 TPT


Footnotes

1. 4:17 Or “caught up together.” The Greek word harpazō is used as a figure of speech in Greek literature during the time Paul wrote this letter. The book of Enoch and the Dead Sea Scrolls use the same Greek word and imagery to describe spiritual victory, not a “rapture.” The word can describe being caught up in the victory of Christ’s unveiling. Also, there are Jewish apocalyptic texts that use the same phrasing as Paul’s writings but have nothing to do with a physical rapture.
2. 4:17 There is no definite article before clouds. It is literally “in clouds.” Where the identifying article is missing, it often speaks of quality, or it is used as a descriptive term. The Greek word for “cloud” is often used in the Greek classics of a large body of individuals, and it is so used in this symbolic way in Heb. 12:1–2, speaking of the “great witnesses who encircle us like clouds.”
3. 4:17 The Greek word apantēsisis not a verb (go to meet) but a feminine noun (a meeting or an encounter), and in this context it is the bride of Christ rising to be with Jesus to have an encounter or “[bridal] meeting.” This rarely used Greek word is also used in the parable of the ten virgins, referring to the virgins rising up to meet (have a meeting) with the bridegroom. See Matt. 25:1, 6.
4. 4:17 This is the Greek word aerand is not the sky, but the air around us. See Eph. 2:2 where it is also used not in a literal sense.

when they meet the dead in christ that were raised from the dead....what clever detour do you teachers take you on.
I bet it is a nice ride to nowhere huh?

 

[Absolutely]

Yes and no. There are specific instructions for those churches. Doesn't mean we can't learn lessons from them. In a sense, it's a picture of the unified church, but with individual congregations that have their own nuances and personalities complete with rebukes and praises.

For example, according to Revelation 2:10, they will have tribulation 10 days. That doesnt apply to your church up the street. However, you may be able to learn from this by understanding that in tribulation you must have grounded faith, hope, and endurance.

The bible says of the " tribulation saints" that they overcame by the blood and their testimony and loved mot their lives unto death.
Very plain they were arrested, invoked their "pedigree",and the blood of Jesus, and were martyred.
You have no case at all for a postrib rapture.
The ac kills all refusing the mark.

 

[Absolutely]

You have the Christians on Earth during the Great Tribulation missing the wedding. Obviously no wedding can happen until ALL Christians can attend it. That's why the rapture and wedding is after the end of the Great Tribulation.

Rev 14 has the last group gathered to the wedding in heaven.
Rev 19 .....the bride is called the wife.
Last supper dialogue places the wedding supper in heaven.
Wedding supper happens at the fathers house.
Betrothal is at the brides house.

No wedding supper on earth.

 

[Absolutely]

There will be those who come to Christ after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath. This is why Jesus warns believers to always be watching and ready so that that day does not close on us like a trap. For He says: "For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth."

Those who will be on the earth during that time will have not been believers in Christ prior to the gathering of the church and therefore will not have been watching nor ready for the Lord and will come to believe in Christ during the time of God's wrath, who will keep the testimony of Christ and the word of God. And who will not worship the beast, his image nor receive his mark. As it says, "they will not love their lives so much as to shrink away from death." This group is introduced in Revelation 7:9-17, many of which are killed during the tribulation period. They are believers, but they are never referred to as the church. The church period comes to its close when the Lord comes to gather us.

So, in response to your claim above, Yes, those who become believers after the church has been gathered will miss out on the wedding and that because they are not the bride and do not belong to the church. However, they are not in limbo. Of this group, those who are killed during that time will be resurrected immortal and glorified when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and will rule with the Lord during the thousand years. And those of this group who make it alive through the entire tribulation period, will enter into the millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies, along with the remnant of Israel and will repopulate the earth.

Jesus used 2 illustrations showing ones left behind.
Both groups point to righteous being left behind.
Those are the trib saints. Millions of them.

They are most all martyred and some will surely love their lives so much they take the mark.

 

[Absolutely]

You left something out:

RAPTURE > MARRIAGE SUPPER IN HEAVEN> SECOND COMING TO EARTH> CHRISTIANS ON EARTH MISS THE WEDDING AND NOW ARE IN LIMBO??

That sounds about right for the errant pre-trib doctrine.

the bible says all on earth take the mark.

So in your doctrine you left something out.

Lots of things

 

[Absolutely]

Context doesn't fit for the general church. That is to the church of Philadelphia, one out of seven different congregations.

Let's look at another example to the Smyrna church:

Revelation 2:10
10Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Do you think this means the great tribulation lasts only 10 days for the Smyrna church? Of course not.

Jesus said " about to come upon the whole earth"

Jesus was plain in the 10 day dynamic and the 7 yr gt. That one about to come upon the entire earth had a pretrib removal promise.

No clever reframe job can fix the postrib rapture error.

 

[Runningman]

Jesus said " about to come upon the whole earth"

Jesus was plain in the 10 day dynamic and the 7 yr gt. That one about to come upon the entire earth had a pretrib removal promise.

No clever reframe job can fix the postrib rapture error.

Big problem with the interpretation that it's a pre-trib rapture: it simply doesn't say that. Furthermore, it would contradict the scriptures about the coming of Christ and rapture.

It says they will be kept from the hour of temptation that comes upon the world. It's important what it does not say. It does not say the Philadelphia church will be gathered to Jesus or be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. It isn't a rapture verse.

Revelation 3:10
10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

 

[Jocund]

"""I agree. Pretrib rapture is a new age concept"""

We own the debate.
You can not go toe to toe.
That is why you carry the interaction into the extra biblical.

You cant win in your message so you go after the messengers.

In fact you have no verses at all.

Pretrib rapture gained movement in the 1800s. Pretrib rapture is factually a new age concept.