Loss of salvation???

[bluejean_bible]

True. Simon the sorcerer thought if he claimed to believe and performed the rite,baptism,he would gain for himself the same powers as the Disciples of Christ.

His story is a great example of the nominal Christian. In name only. Which is also a perfect example in itself against the teaching that a person can choose to follow Christ and be equal in the mind of God with God's Elect.

"You did not choose me, I chose you..." Jesus to his Disciples.

They being precisely what Jesus taught. Those ones whom the father called. And their natural mind,human consciousness dead in sin,having been altered by the holy Spirit so they should understand the things Jesus taught. Which is how they performed the works of Christ later. Miracles,etc...

Simon was not that. He was in his fallen mind when he thought he could buy holy powers. And pretend first to believe in Christ in order to obtain them.

It is in keeping with the material desires of the flesh. That which thinks they choose Christ would naturally think they can later choose not to believe in him. And have Christ agree and cut them loose so to have them fall back into their former dead in sin state.

When in reality , God knows, they were always there.

Auto correct is of the devil,I'm convinced. lol

The first paragraph as intended:

True. Simon the sorcerer thought if he claimed to believe and performed the rite,baptism,he would gain for himself the same powers as the Disciples of Christ.

 

[Genez]

Now you're getting it. The intentions of some here is to act as contrarians to Scripture.

Every community in Christ has them.

As like during a time of a war, every nation has citizens within who give reason to side with the enemy.

 

[bluejean_bible]

As like during a time of a war, every nation has citizens within who give reason to side with the enemy.

That's called Sedition and Treason.

Remember too,there are a lot of children here. And unbelievers who pose as the faithful.

 

[Genez]

That's called Sedition and Treason.

Remember too,there are a lot of children here. And unbelievers who pose as the faithful.

That is how they are to learn at that phase in their growth.
They must suffer and endure for righteousness’ sake.

Just the same?
One can be saved many years, yet remain still as a child mentally in Christ.

For, as I have often told you before and now tell you again, even with tears, ​

many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their destiny is destruction, their ​

god is their belly, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is set on earthly ​

things." Philippians 3:18-19​

FYI - The word "belly" was idiomatic.

Back then, the ancients used various body parts to point to human attributes, for things that today we have words for.

Belly meant what back then? "The emotions." They make their emotions their god.
Irrational for that reason, being enemies of the Cross by willful denial of what they do not want to believe is truth.

Their destiny is destruction?

If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. ​

If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—​

even though only as one escaping through the flames." ​

​

​

1 Cor 3:14-15​

 

[Beckworth]

Not one of those verses above "unequivocally" teach that a really "saved" person really "lost their salvation." If you like, we could discuss these verses one at a time. I already covered some of those verses with you in this page from the link below:

Another look at John 10. - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums

The ESV reads - ..fails to obtain the grace of God.. Not fails to maintain but fails to obtain. No loss of salvation here. Only a failure to obtain it.

Yes, you and I have discussed these scriptures and others multiple times. Just because YOU say those scriptures don’t say what they actually say, does not mean that is true. That may be your opinion, but you consistently choose not to believe what the Holy Spirit has written on these and many other scriptures, such as 1 Peter 3:21, James 2:24, John 3, Mark 16:16 and many others, so it is no surprise that you don’t believe what these verses actually say. You go to great lengths to “get around” the truth of God’s actual words. I must conclude that you do not believe God’s word. You are one of those spoken of in 1 Thess. Who do not LOVE The truth. I know for a fact that you do not believe Jesus when He said “Belief and baptism saves you.” Mark 16:16 You do not believe the Holy Spirit when He says “Baptism saves us” 1 Peter 3:21. You do not believe What He writes in James 2:24 that “faith only” does not save anyone. You don’t believe God when He said, baptism is for the remission of sins Acts 2:38; or that baptism “washes away your sins” Acts 22:16. You are arguing with and against God because those are not my words; I didn’t write them. God said that. The Holy Spirit wrote that. So your disbelief and your argumentation is against God the Father, the Holy Spirit, and Jesus. I have quoted exactly what the scripture says, word for word and you still argue against it. I will continue to quote the scriptures, word for word, regardless of your disbelief in them, but I will not “cast pearls before swine.” Matthew 7:6

 

[mailmandan]

Yes, you and I have discussed these scriptures and others multiple times.

There are still more scriptures that we have not discussed but you seem to be very satisfied with what you already believe and don't want to be confused with the facts.

Just because YOU say those scriptures don’t say what they actually say, does not mean that is true.

What those scriptures actually say or what YOU want them to say? When isolating your pet verses and hastily building doctrine on them you fail to read them in context and also in harmony with the rest of scripture.

That may be your opinion, but you consistently choose not to believe what the Holy Spirit has written on these and many other scriptures, such as 1 Peter 3:21, James 2:24, John 3, Mark 16:16 and many others, so it is no surprise that you don’t believe what these verses actually say.

I absolutely DO believe what the Holy Spirit has written on those and many other scriptures. I just don't believe your eisegesis. I don't simply isolate part of a verse and ignore the rest, as you did with 1 Peter 3:21 and missed the true meaning of what Peter was actually saying. I read James 2:24 in context and also in harmony with Romans 4:2-6. You did not and the end result for you is salvation by works in contradiction to scripture. (Ephesians 2:8,9) In John 3, Jesus said born of water and the Spirit. He did not say born of baptism and the Spirit. Jesus also connects "living water" with the Holy Spirit and eternal life in John 4:10,14; 7:37-39. Water in scripture is also used as an emblem of the word of God in which it is associated with washing and cleansing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) You don't seem to consider any of that. You only care about making that verse fit your biased church doctrine.

When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, and we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the washing of regeneration. (Titus 3:5) Sadly, you seem more interested in accommodating your biased church doctrine at all costs then you do with properly harmonizing scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine.

You go to great lengths to “get around” the truth of God’s actual words.

Interpreting scripture in context and properly harmonizing scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine is not going to great lengths to "get around" the truth of God's word. Acts 10:43-47 is crystal clear yet I still hear Campbellites deny that these Gentiles in Acts 10 received the gift of the Holy Spirit prior to receiving water baptism (later confirmed in Acts 11:17,18; 15:7-9) and claim instead that these Gentiles merely received the gift of tongues in order to "get around" the truth that these Gentiles believed, received the gift of the Holy Spirit and were saved prior to receiving water baptism. Acts 10:43-47 remains the Achilles heel of the church of Christ.

I must conclude that you do not believe God’s word. You are one of those spoken of in 1 Thess. Who do not LOVE The truth.

So, you know this for a fact? You infallibly know my heart? That judgment call is well above your pay grade. Your true colors are really beginning to show. Once again, I absolutely DO believe God's word. I just don't believe your eisegesis.

I know for a fact that you do not believe Jesus when He said, “Belief and baptism saves you.” Mark 16:16

I believe it. If he who believes will be saved (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) then he who believes and is baptized will be saved as well yet notice that Jesus said it's the lack of belief that causes condemnation and not the lack of baptism. (Mark 16:16(b); John 3:18). Notice how I read the entire verse and properly harmonized scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. You simply isolated the first half of the verse and ignored the second half, and you also ignored these multiple verses in John before reaching your hasty conclusion on doctrine.

You do not believe the Holy Spirit when He says “Baptism saves us” 1 Peter 3:21.

Why do you keep stopping there? Read the rest - not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism). So, by Peter saying, "not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ," Peter guards against saving power to the physical ceremony in H20 itself. You need to stop reading only what you want to hear then ignoring the rest. That is how false doctrine is conceived.

Continued..

 

[mailmandan]

You do not believe What He writes in James 2:24 that “faith only” does not save anyone.

I absolutely DO believe James. Now what does James mean by "faith only?" Empty profession of faith/dead faith says/claims to have faith but has no works (James 2:14). That is not genuine faith but a bare profession of faith. Not to be confused with faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) You need to realize that in James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) *Hermeneutics. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

You don’t believe God when He said, baptism is for the remission of sins Acts 2:38;

I don't believe your eisegesis. In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:47)

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18. *Hermeneutics.

*So, the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

or that baptism “washes away your sins” Acts 22:16.

Excellent article on Acts 22:16 - WHAT IS TRUTH: Acts 22:16--Baptism Essential for Salvation?

You are arguing with and against God because those are not my words; I didn’t write them. God said that.

I'm only arguing with you and not with God. You continuously cherry pick parts of pet verses that tell you what you want to hear and then you ignore the rest that conveys the actual full meaning. That's called flawed hermeneutics.

The Holy Spirit wrote that. So, your disbelief and your argumentation is against God the Father, the Holy Spirit, and Jesus.

I am fully aware of Who wrote it (2 Timothy 3:16) and the Bible is not simply a textbook that we properly interpret through mere human intelligence. (1 Corinthians 2:11-14)

I have quoted exactly what the scripture says, word for word and you still argue against it.

You only cherry pick parts of scripture that tickle your ears and then ignore the rest. That is a common practice in false religions and cults.

{QUOTE] I will continue to quote the scriptures, word for word, regardless of your disbelief in them, but I will not “cast pearls before swine.” Matthew 7:6[/QUOTE] Word for word? Really? You only quoted the first three words of 1 Peter 3:21 and ignored the rest. You only quoted the first half of Mark 16:16 and ignored the rest. Now I at one time had attended the so-called church of Christ so I understand their absolute obsession with water baptism, and I also understand how they try to "shoehorn" works "into" salvation through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) You appear to be thoroughly indoctrinated and unteachable but with God all things are possible. I just hope and pray that something I shared with you has at least planted a seed that one day will be watered and lead you to the truth. ✝️

 

[mailmandan]

You really need to rethink what you are saying. When we repent, it is only because the Spirit has worked in us to desire to do so! The work is then the work of the Spirit, not ours!

John 6:39
This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

Do you really think that Christ has holes in his hands, that we might somehow slip through his fingers? This type of thinking must work against your assurance!

Amen! In John 10:27-28, we read - My sheep hear My voice, (not some of them don't hear His voice) and I know them, (not some of them He doesn't know) and they follow Me. (not some of them don't follow Him) And I give them eternal life, (not some of them He doesn't give eternal life) and they shall never perish; (not some of them will perish) neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. (not some of them will be snatched out of His hand)

His sheep have eternal security. In CONTRAST with those do not believe and are not His sheep. (John 10:25-26)

 

[mailmandan]

That's called Sedition and Treason.

Remember too,there are a lot of children here. And unbelievers who pose as the faithful.

There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" or pseudo-Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers and it's not hard to find them mixed together on various Christian forum sites all claiming to be genuine Christians/believers.

 

[Beckworth]

No you didn't, none of those states clearly someone who was saved by God lost that gift, not one of them, so to say you listed 19 verses that prove we can lose salvation is NOT true. I don't want to say it's a lie, because you believe they do say that, but the FACT of the matter is not one of them say what you want them to. You just give man WAY TOO MUCH power over salvation that doesn't belong to us, and deny Gods power to the point you basically say we can walk into and out of salvation whenever we want to. I disagree and feel your view of the power of God is like someone who has never experienced it. If you had you'd had MUCH MORE reverence for it.

Losing our salvation has nothing to do with the power of God. Jesus wanted to save the people in Jerusalem. He said He would have gathered them under His arms like a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, BUT THEY WERE UNWILLING. Does that mean God did not have the POWER to make them come to Him? To save them? Ridiculous! He was WILLING, but they were UNWILLING. That shows that they had free will to choose. Could Jesus have FORCED them to come to Him? Yes, He had the power to force them, but He did not. Why would God go to all the trouble to create a bunch of robots? That’s not what God wants. He wants us to love Him enough to “choose”. To want to come to Him. Would you want to marry a person who was “FORCED” to marry you? They really didn’t want to marry you, but they had no choice. They were “made” to do it. I guess you would be alright with that. We are the “bride” of Christ. He is our “bridegroom”. No groom that I ever heard of wants a bride who is forced to marry Him. And neither does Christ! God gives us plenty of evidence in the Bible that man has free will and He wants us to serve Him WILLINGLY.

 

[GWH]

Yes, you and I have discussed these scriptures and others multiple times. Just because YOU say those scriptures don’t say what they actually say, does not mean that is true. That may be your opinion, but you consistently choose not to believe what the Holy Spirit has written on these and many other scriptures, such as 1 Peter 3:21, James 2:24, John 3, Mark 16:16 and many others, so it is no surprise that you don’t believe what these verses actually say. You go to great lengths to “get around” the truth of God’s actual words. I must conclude that you do not believe God’s word. You are one of those spoken of in 1 Thess. Who do not LOVE The truth. I know for a fact that you do not believe Jesus when He said “Belief and baptism saves you.” Mark 16:16 You do not believe the Holy Spirit when He says “Baptism saves us” 1 Peter 3:21. You do not believe What He writes in James 2:24 that “faith only” does not save anyone. You don’t believe God when He said, baptism is for the remission of sins Acts 2:38; or that baptism “washes away your sins” Acts 22:16. You are arguing with and against God because those are not my words; I didn’t write them. God said that. The Holy Spirit wrote that. So your disbelief and your argumentation is against God the Father, the Holy Spirit, and Jesus. I have quoted exactly what the scripture says, word for word and you still argue against it. I will continue to quote the scriptures, word for word, regardless of your disbelief in them, but I will not “cast pearls before swine.” Matthew 7:6

Yes, everyone expresses their fallible opinion regarding the best interpretation of Scripture, and it is the opinion of most biblical scholars that MK 16:9-20 is not in the best manuscripts so it is problematic to believe in drinking poison, handling asps or requiring WB for salvation based on that Scripture.

As we discuss our opinions it is important to begin by expressing agreement regarding the Gospel kerygma while perhaps disagreeing regarding secondary doctrines, but in the case of WB the question is whether it is part of the former or the latter. My vote is that it is not a sacrament but rather a symbol and dramatic way of publicly professing saving faith in Christ.

Regarding saving faith, my understanding is that it occurs first but should be followed by the fruit of the HS,
which may include confessing Christ and WB along with love for God and everyone else while hating evil and
striving for moral perfection as the ultimate goal in heaven.

 

[bluejean_bible]

There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" or pseudo-Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers and it's not hard to find them mixed together on various Christian forum sites all claiming to be genuine Christians/believers.

Agreed.

Sad,isn't it?

 

[Beckworth]

Amen! In John 10:27-28, we read - My sheep hear My voice, (not some of them don't hear His voice) and I know them, (not some of them He doesn't know) and they follow Me. (not some of them don't follow Him) And I give them eternal life, (not some of them He doesn't give eternal life) and they shall never perish; (not some of them will perish) neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. (not some of them will be snatched out of His hand)

His sheep have eternal security. In CONTRAST with those do not believe and are not His sheep. (John 10:25-26)

Yes, the key to John 10 is that they are the sheep that are following Him. These are the FAITHFUL sheep. Of course they are going to have eternal life. Verse 27-28 says “…THEY FOLLOW ME AND I GIVE THEM ETERNAL LIFE AND THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH.” You have not proved anything—especially that one cannot lose his salvation—by quoting scripture about how the FAITHFUL are going to be saved and live forever. WeALL know that and it is not disputed! What you need to show us is a passage that says a saved person cannot fall or lose his salvation, or cannot be lost. You cannot produce one verse that says that because it is not there. You need John 10 to be about sheep who are NOT-FOLLOWING CHRIST but are going to have eternal life anyway—to prove your point. John 10 does not help your cause because it is not talking about anyone who is unfaithful to Christ. It is about faithful Christians. yes, no one can steal them out out of God’s hand and the key here is on a thief (verse 10) or anyone on the outside—another person, or perhaps Satan. But what you need is for this passage to say that the FAITHFUL sheep who are following Him cannot leave for they do not have free will but are made to stay whether they want to or not.. and THAT is not in this passage. But that “man made” idea is totally destroyed by another illustration that Jesus used about His sheep in Matthew 18 and Luke 15. This is again Jesus talking about His sheep. He has already said that He is the shepherd, and In this parable He has 100 sheep. They are His sheep. They do not belong to another shepherd. VERSE 4. They are part of HIS FOLD of 100 sheep. He LOSES one of HIS 100 sheep. 1) this sheep was part of His “fold.” It belonged to Him. It was HIS. We are not talking about another shepherd’s sheep. We are not talking about a stray that belonged to another fold. It was HIS. It was part of the 100. And now that it was gone, He only had 99 left. That’s how we know it was in His fold. Now if you are going to argue with the Holy Spirit about how it was never one of His and never really part ofHis fold, you go ahead, but I have to believe the Holy Spirit is divine, is God and He would KNOW whether or not this sheep really belonged to Christ and He says it did. It was part of the fold of Christ. It was one of His sheep. You can dispute with the Spirit and argue against what He says, and try to prove He is a liar but I would not advise it. He is God. We must show Him the respect and honor He deserves by believing what He says. So far in this parable we have a sheep of Christ’s, belonging to His fold, that was at one time part of 99 saved sheep who are not lost.

But this sheep is LOST!! Now please notice the immediate difference between the sheep who was LOST in this illustration told by Jesus and the illustration of the sheep who were following Him in John 10. John 10 Jesus is talking about faithful followers of His and how THEY will be rewarded with eternal life. The sheep in John 10 are not lost. They are listening to His voice and faithfully following Christ. Why wouldn’t they have eternal life?! John 10 does not prove a Christian cant Lose his salvation because it is not about Christians leaving Christ—it is about Christians FOLLOWING Christ. Huge difference.

Another interesting fact about this parable in Luke 15:4 is that the Holy Spirit says that Jesus “LOSES” one of His sheep. Now wait a minute. I thought John 10 says that “no one can snatch them out of my hand” and you take that to mean that they can’t be LOST, but here we find ONE IS LOST!! How can that be? IT means that saying a saved person can’t be lost is untrue. This illustration proves that a child of God CAN be lost. This sheep was His and it was LOST. God says so. It means that no one can snatch them away from God but they CAN LEAVE OF THEIR OWN FREE WILL. IF a Christian leaves of his own free will that does not make John 10 a contradiction, because it is true not another person can take them away from God, but They can walk away on their on at any time. And what is their state if they leave the fold of God? They are “LOST.”

Now look at the “rest of the story.” Jesus finds the lost sheep and notice what He says, “I have found MY SHEEP which was lost.” You see it was Jesus’s sheep. He claims it. He says it was His. It had already been accepted into His fold before it went astray. It was already part of His fold of saved sheep before it became “lost.” This sheep REPENTED. Verse 7. He needed to REPENT, and when he did, he was RESTORED to the fold of Christ. This is exactly what Peter told Simon the Sorcerer to do after he sinned—repent…The other 99 sheep were saved and needed no repentance, but this “lost” sheep needed repentance. He did, And heaven rejoiced.

Result: John 10 does NOT prove that a child of God can’t be lost. It’s not even dealing with “lost” people. It’s about “saved” people and how the saved will be rewarded with eternal life. Amen to that!

Luke 15 IS dealing with “lost” sheep and proves, beyond doubt that a Christian can lose their salvation; and if they do, they need to repent and they can be “restored” to the fold of Christ.

This illustration, put together with the one in John 10 give us the COMPLETE PICTURE of what Jesus us saying. John 10 is a picture of the 99 sheep who are safely in the fold of Christ— listening to His voice and faithfully following Him. Luke 15 teaches us that a child of God, who was previously in His fold, can wander away, on his own, can leave of his own free will, and be LOST. No outside force or person has the power to steal us away from God, but because He has given us “free will”, we can choose to leave the fold of God at any time.

 

[Sipsey]

Yes, the key to John 10 is that they are the sheep that are following Him. These are the FAITHFUL sheep. Of course they are going to have eternal life. Verse 27-28 says “…THEY FOLLOW ME AND I GIVE THEM ETERNAL LIFE AND THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH.” You have not proved anything—especially that one cannot lose his salvation—by quoting scripture about how the FAITHFUL are going to be saved and live forever. WeALL know that and it is not disputed! What you need to show us is a passage that says a saved person cannot fall or lose his salvation, or cannot be lost. You cannot produce one verse that says that because it is not there. You need John 10 to be about sheep who are NOT-FOLLOWING CHRIST but are going to have eternal life anyway—to prove your point. John 10 does not help your cause because it is not talking about anyone who is unfaithful to Christ. It is about faithful Christians. yes, no one can steal them out out of God’s hand and the key here is on a thief (verse 10) or anyone on the outside—another person, or perhaps Satan. But what you need is for this passage to say that the FAITHFUL sheep who are following Him cannot leave for they do not have free will but are made to stay whether they want to or not.. and THAT is not in this passage. But that “man made” idea is totally destroyed by another illustration that Jesus used about His sheep in Matthew 18 and Luke 15. This is again Jesus talking about His sheep. He has already said that He is the shepherd, and In this parable He has 100 sheep. They are His sheep. They do not belong to another shepherd. VERSE 4. They are part of HIS FOLD of 100 sheep. He LOSES one of HIS 100 sheep. 1) this sheep was part of His “fold.” It belonged to Him. It was HIS. We are not talking about another shepherd’s sheep. We are not talking about a stray that belonged to another fold. It was HIS. It was part of the 100. And now that it was gone, He only had 99 left. That’s how we know it was in His fold. Now if you are going to argue with the Holy Spirit about how it was never one of His and never really part ofHis fold, you go ahead, but I have to believe the Holy Spirit is divine, is God and He would KNOW whether or not this sheep really belonged to Christ and He says it did. It was part of the fold of Christ. It was one of His sheep. You can dispute with the Spirit and argue against what He says, and try to prove He is a liar but I would not advise it. He is God. We must show Him the respect and honor He deserves by believing what He says. So far in this parable we have a sheep of Christ’s, belonging to His fold, that was at one time part of 99 saved sheep who are not lost.

But this sheep is LOST!! Now please notice the immediate difference between the sheep who was LOST in this illustration told by Jesus and the illustration of the sheep who were following Him in John 10. John 10 Jesus is talking about faithful followers of His and how THEY will be rewarded with eternal life. The sheep in John 10 are not lost. They are listening to His voice and faithfully following Christ. Why wouldn’t they have eternal life?! John 10 does not prove a Christian cant Lose his salvation because it is not about Christians leaving Christ—it is about Christians FOLLOWING Christ. Huge difference.

Another interesting fact about this parable in Luke 15:4 is that the Holy Spirit says that Jesus “LOSES” one of His sheep. Now wait a minute. I thought John 10 says that “no one can snatch them out of my hand” and you take that to mean that they can’t be LOST, but here we find ONE IS LOST!! How can that be? IT means that saying a saved person can’t be lost is untrue. This illustration proves that a child of God CAN be lost. This sheep was His and it was LOST. God says so. It means that no one can snatch them away from God but they CAN LEAVE OF THEIR OWN FREE WILL. IF a Christian leaves of his own free will that does not make John 10 a contradiction, because it is true not another person can take them away from God, but They can walk away on their on at any time. And what is their state if they leave the fold of God? They are “LOST.”

Now look at the “rest of the story.” Jesus finds the lost sheep and notice what He says, “I have found MY SHEEP which was lost.” You see it was Jesus’s sheep. He claims it. He says it was His. It had already been accepted into His fold before it went astray. It was already part of His fold of saved sheep before it became “lost.” This sheep REPENTED. Verse 7. He needed to REPENT, and when he did, he was RESTORED to the fold of Christ. This is exactly what Peter told Simon the Sorcerer to do after he sinned—repent…The other 99 sheep were saved and needed no repentance, but this “lost” sheep needed repentance. He did, And heaven rejoiced.

Result: John 10 does NOT prove that a child of God can’t be lost. It’s not even dealing with “lost” people. It’s about “saved” people and how the saved will be rewarded with eternal life. Amen to that!

Luke 15 IS dealing with “lost” sheep and proves, beyond doubt that a Christian can lose their salvation; and if they do, they need to repent and they can be “restored” to the fold of Christ.

This illustration, put together with the one in John 10 give us the COMPLETE PICTURE of what Jesus us saying. John 10 is a picture of the 99 sheep who are safely in the fold of Christ— listening to His voice and faithfully following Him. Luke 15 teaches us that a child of God, who was previously in His fold, can wander away, on his own, can leave of his own free will, and be LOST. No outside force or person has the power to steal us away from God, but because He has given us “free will”, we can choose to leave the fold of God at any time.

Wouldn’t your opinion conclude that we are the arbiter of our salvation?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Can a once truly saved believer backslide too much and lose the gift of salvation? If so do they need to repent and ask for forgiveness through Christ again? Thoughts are welcome and scripture too!

salvation is a promise that will be delivered in the future. It isn’t something we possess to lose or re gain after we lose it ect it’s a promise from Jesus to save us from the second death on the day of judgement if we repent and believe the gospel

repentance is what your asking about here

“If so do they need to repent and ask for forgiveness through Christ again?”

“If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭1:6-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

there’s never just one angle though another really important thing is Gods eternal judgement regarding the matter is the light we need to walk in and be o. Fellowship

“Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged:

condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned:

forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom.

For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:36-38‬ ‭

This doctrine of common mercy really is central to the gospel . Jesus is the mercy of God given freely to all people and then we are taught above there forgive other people as Christ forgave us and he’s promised to always reciprocate with mercy to the merciful but not later to the unmerciful

“So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

jesus the lord and judge of all teaches believers in the gospel all about forgivness. His forgivness towards us and also his judgements regarding forgivness from us towards others.

“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:14-15

“And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:42-44‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Beckworth]

Wouldn’t your opinion conclude that we are the arbiter of our salvation?

What the Holy Spirit wrote in John 10 and Luke 15 is not my “opinion.” I have no “opinion” about those scriptures other than what is written in those chapters. I honestly represented what each verse said—quoting some verses “word for word.” So, no, those chapters in John and Luke are not anyone’s option—they are the word of God written by the Holy Spirit. John 17 says that God’s word is “truth.” So What God said in John 10 and Luke 15 is the “truth.” It’s not anyone’s opinion— and certainly not mine.

I have nothing to do with who receives God’s salvation. “Salvation” is God’s department. He makes the rules—about who receives it and HOW they receive it—not me. God has the Right to make the laws concerning salvation because He is the one who willingly went to the cross so all of us might receive it. Salvation is free to all who meet God’s requirements. Yes, God has laid down conditions or requirements that must be satisfied before He will give it to anyone. God is God. If He wants to make conditions, He can and He has. For example, here is one of His “conditions:”. John 14:6, Jesus says, “ No one comes to the Father except through me.” So here is how it works. Salvation is free to every person; BUT, God has made some rules that must be met before anyone can receive His salvation. We cannot have God as our Father unless we first believe and come to Jesus. It doesn’t matter if you or someone else agrees with that, thinks it is unfair or thinks it makes salvation NOT free—God has ordained this, it is His law,; and He has the authority and power to make that a condition for salvation. It’s His right. Jews and Muslins can “screen and holler” but that does not change what God has said. God is not going to change the rules for mankind. There are many, many conditions governing salvation in the Bible. Man has declared that if there are conditions, then it can’t be free. Who says? God says it is and yet He has made conditions. Who are you or me to tell God what He can and cannot do?

We have the same thing everyday in our lives here on earth and no one ever questions it unless it has to do with religion. For example, we just recently had a “Chicken Salad Chick” open in my hometown. They advertised that you could get FREE chicken salad every week fOR a year IF—see that word??— IF, you were one of the first 50 people in line. Was the chicken salad free for a year?? Yes. Was there a condition that you must meet in order to get the FREE chicken salad?? Yes! Businesses do it all the time— in fact almost EVERY time a free gift is offered—there are conditions that must be met.
So, the evangelist Phillip told the Ethiopian Eunuch that “IF” he “believed” he could be baptized. Baptism is for ”BELIEVERS.” The Bible says that baptism does several wonderful things—it forgives your sins Acts 2:38, it puts you into Christ (Gal. 3:27) where all spiritual blessings are; it puts you into His body, the church ( Col 2:12, 1:24). But there is a “condition” that must be met before one can be baptized—he must be a believer. Then, and only then, Will Christ give him the blessings that come with baptism. Is baptism free? Yes, to all people, everywhere. Just because there are “conditions” does not mean that it’s not free.

So, God has given us free will. That does not mean we have power to save ourselves. It simply means we can choose, to accept God’s salvation or not. But the only way we can get it is to meet His conditions. Whatever they are and however many there are. When we do, we are yielding to His authority, deity, and power. And His free gift of salvation is ours.

 

[studier]

Just because there are “conditions” does not mean that it’s not free.

So, God has given us free will. That does not mean we have power to save ourselves. It simply means we can choose, to accept God’s salvation or not. But the only way we can get it is to meet His conditions. Whatever they are and however many there are. When we do, we are yielding to His authority, deity, and power. And His free gift of salvation is ours.

There are several things worth repeating. Here are two.

It's nice to read the Word of God taken at face value, letting God speak.

 

[mailmandan]

Yes, the key to John 10 is that they are the sheep that are following Him. These are the FAITHFUL sheep. Of course they are going to have eternal life. Verse 27-28 says “…THEY FOLLOW ME AND I GIVE THEM ETERNAL LIFE AND THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH.”

Only Jesus' sheep in verse 27-28 are faithful in contrast with those who do not believe and are not His sheep in verse 26. Jesus mentions nothing in verse 27-28 about unfaithful sheep. That is your eisegesis.

You have not proved anything—especially that one cannot lose his salvation—by quoting scripture about how the FAITHFUL are going to be saved and live forever. We ALL know that, and it is not disputed!

I have proved from scripture in John 10:27-28 that Jesus gives His sheep eternal life, and they shall never perish or be snatched from His hand, but you simply refuse to see it. The words "lose or lost salvation" are found nowhere in scripture.

What you need to show us is a passage that says a saved person cannot fall or lose his salvation or cannot be lost. You cannot produce one verse that says that because it is not there.

In Psalm 37:28, we read - For the Lord loves justice and does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off. How long is forever? In Jude 1:1 we read that those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, are also preserved in Jesus Christ.

In Hebrews 10:10, we read that we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all and in Hebrews 10:14, we read for by one offering he has perfected forever them that are sanctified.

In Proverbs 24:16, we read - For a righteous man may fall seven times and rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity. Did you see that?

In John 6:39, Jesus said - And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of everything that He has given Me I will lose nothing, but will raise it up on the last day. This is further confirmed in John 18:9 - that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none."

In Romans 8:30, we read - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress its certainty.

In 1 Corinthians 1:8, we read - He will also keep you firm to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. We also read about this guarantee in 1 Corinthians 1:22 and 2 Corinthians 5:5. In Ephesians 4:30 we read that believers are sealed unto/for the day of redemption.

Philippians 1:6 - being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ. You seem to trust in self-preservation over God's preservation.

You need John 10 to be about sheep who are NOT-FOLLOWING CHRIST but are going to have eternal life anyway—to prove your point.

Jesus did not mention His sheep who are not following Him in John 10:27-28 but Jesus does mention unbelievers in verse 26 who are not His sheep. (spiritually) I already proved my point aside from your long-winded personal commentary.

ohn 10 does not help your cause because it is not talking about anyone who is unfaithful to Christ. It is about faithful Christians. yes, no one can steal them out out of God’s hand and the key here is on a thief (verse 10) or anyone on the outside—another person, or perhaps Satan. But what you need is for this passage to say that the FAITHFUL sheep who are following Him cannot leave for they do not have free will but are made to stay whether they want to or not.. and THAT is not in this passage.

Jesus mentions nothing in John 10 about His sheep being divided into two separate groups of faithful and unfaithful, so your argument is moot.

But that “man-made” idea is totally destroyed by another illustration that Jesus used about His sheep in Matthew 18 and Luke 15.

Jesus' promises to His sheep in John 10:27-28 are wonderful promises and not man-made ideas. Your eisegesis does not destroy John 10:27-28. You need to read verses in context, properly harmonize scripture with scripture and rightly divide the word of truth before reaching your conclusion on doctrine. You are quick to jump to conclusions.

This is again Jesus talking about His sheep. He has already said that He is the shepherd, and In this parable He has 100 sheep. They are His sheep. They do not belong to another shepherd. VERSE 4. They are part of HIS FOLD of 100 sheep. He LOSES one of HIS 100 sheep. 1) this sheep was part of His “fold.” It belonged to Him. It was HIS. We are not talking about another shepherd’s sheep. We are not talking about a stray that belonged to another fold. It was HIS. It was part of the 100. And now that it was gone, He only had 99 left. That’s how we know it was in His fold. Now if you are going to argue with the Holy Spirit about how it was never one of His and never really part of His fold, you go ahead, but I have to believe the Holy Spirit is divine, is God and He would KNOW whether or not this sheep really belonged to Christ and He says it did. It was part of the fold of Christ. It was one of His sheep. You can dispute with the Spirit and argue against what He says, and try to prove He is a liar but I would not advise it. He is God. We must show Him the respect and honor He deserves by believing what He says. So far in this parable we have a sheep of Christ’s, belonging to His fold, that was at one time part of 99 saved sheep who are not lost.

In context, we see that Jesus is directing this parable to the Pharisees and scribes who complained, saying that Jesus receives sinners and eats with them, while failing to recognize because of pride and self-righteousness that they were sinners themselves. The main point of this parable is not that one of Jesus' sheep who He gave eternal life lost their salvation and had to regain it back again, but the absolute importance of finding the one lost sheep -- there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

So, this parable does not teach that this one "sheep" in this case was a saved person who lost their salvation and had to repent and get saved all over again. That is not the point. Context is key. Luke 15:1-2 sets the scene. The religious leaders criticized Jesus for associating with these sinners. Jesus responds with three parables describing how these religious leaders should have reacted when faced with sinners who wish to repent.

Now look what Jesus said in Matthew 5:5 - These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

In Luke 19:10, we read - for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost. Not save those all over again who lost salvation. Jeremiah 50:6 - My people have been lost sheep. Their shepherds have led them astray. Doesn't mean they were saved. The Israelites are His people (chosen people of God) and His sheep physically, even the lost ones.

Continued..

 

[mailmandan]

But this sheep is LOST!!

Just like the lost sheep of the house of Israel. In context, don't ignore "This man welcomes sinners and eats with them.” (vs. 2) Also, don't ignore verse 7 - I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

Now please notice the immediate difference between the sheep who was LOST in this illustration told by Jesus and the illustration of the sheep who were following Him in John 10. John 10 Jesus is talking about faithful followers of His and how THEY will be rewarded with eternal life. The sheep in John 10 are not lost. They are listening to His voice and faithfully following Christ. Why wouldn’t they have eternal life?! John 10 does not prove a Christian can't Lose his salvation because it is not about Christians leaving Christ—it is about Christians FOLLOWING Christ. Huge difference.

More eisegesis. Luke 15 does not negate John 10. Throughout the Old Testament, Israel is compared to sheep without a shepherd. (Jeremiah 50:6, Ezekiel 34:11-16). In Ezekiel 34, notice - I myself will search for my sheep (the Israelites) and look after them. As a shepherd looks after his scattered flock when he is with them, so will I look after my sheep. So, even these lost sheep (the Israelites) belong to Jesus in a physical sense because the Israelites are God's chosen people but only those who are saved are His sheep (Jew and Gentile alike) in a spiritual sense.

Another interesting fact about this parable in Luke 15:4 is that the Holy Spirit says that Jesus “LOSES” one of His sheep. Now wait a minute. I thought John 10 says that “no one can snatch them out of my hand” and you take that to mean that they can’t be LOST, but here we find ONE IS LOST!! How can that be? IT means that saying a saved person can’t be lost is untrue.

That is your eisegesis. The point here is to illustrate the joy of God over the repentance of sinners. Verse 2 - This man receives sinners. This parable here pictures God as taking the initiative in seeking sinners. These sinners were not snatched from Jesus' hand. They were not in Jesus' hand in the first place.

This illustration proves that a child of God CAN be lost. This sheep was His and it was LOST. God says so. It means that no one can snatch them away from God but they CAN LEAVE OF THEIR OWN FREE WILL. IF a Christian leaves of his own free will that does not make John 10 a contradiction, because it is true not another person can take them away from God, but They can walk away on their on at any time. And what is their state if they leave the fold of God? They are “LOST.”

This illustration only proves that there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents (in contrast with) over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

Now look at the “rest of the story.” Jesus finds the lost sheep and notice what He says, “I have found MY SHEEP which was lost.” You see it was Jesus’s sheep. He claims it. He says it was His. It had already been accepted into His fold before it went astray. It was already part of His fold of saved sheep before it became “lost.”

Nothing is mentioned here about this sheep being saved before it was said to be lost. This is a parable directed at the religious leaders who complained about Jesus receiving sinners and eating with them. Were those sinners previously saved? Or are they lost? That lost sheep was Jesus' sheep physically (because it was of the lost sheep of the house of Israel who Jesus was sent to (Matthew 15:24) but not spiritually until it repented. (Luke 13:3)

This sheep REPENTED. Verse 7. He needed to REPENT, and when he did, he was RESTORED to the fold of Christ. This is exactly what Peter told Simon the Sorcerer to do after he sinned—repent…

Simon the Sorcerer didn't just commit a random act of sin. Simon offered the apostles money to have their ability to impart the Holy Spirit, had no part or share in that ministry, because his heart is not right before God. I already explained this to you in post #1,276. - Loss of salvation??? - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums

The other 99 sheep were saved and needed no repentance, but this “lost” sheep needed repentance. He did, And heaven rejoiced.

The lost sheep here needed repentance because it represented a lost sinner just as we see in verse 2 - sinners. It may have been in the fold of the lost sheep of the house of Israel which does not automatically mean it was saved from the start.

Result: John 10 does NOT prove that a child of God can’t be lost.

Yes it does. You simply refuse to accept the truth.

It’s not even dealing with “lost” people. It’s about “saved” people and how the saved will be rewarded with eternal life. Amen to that!

John 10 is dealing with Jesus' sheep (spiritually) who are saved. Not lost sheep who still belong to Jesus (physically) because they are of the house of Israel.

Luke 15 IS dealing with “lost” sheep and proves, beyond doubt that a Christian can lose their salvation; and if they do, they need to repent and they can be “restored” to the fold of Christ.

False. Nowhere do we find the words "lose salvation" in Luke 15. Only one lost sheep who was a sinner (and not a just person who needs no repentance) just as we see in verse 2 - sinners.

This illustration, put together with the one in John 10 give us the COMPLETE PICTURE of what Jesus us saying.

The illustration you put together in order to gives us your alleged complete picture instead resulted in your eisegesis.

John 10 is a picture of the 99 sheep who are safely in the fold of Christ— listening to His voice and faithfully following Him. Luke 15 teaches us that a child of God, who was previously in His fold, can wander away, on his own, can leave of his own free will, and be LOST.

That is your eisegesis. I can see that you ignored the context.

No outside force or person has the power to steal us away from God, but because He has given us “free will”, we can choose to leave the fold of God at any time.

Where in John 10 did Jesus say we can snatch ourselves from His hand and why would we want to after becoming new creations in Christ? (2 Corinthians 5:17) We have been changed. Praise God! Believers have been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever. (1 Peter 1:23) Those who go out from us were never of us. (1 John 2:19)

 

[Sipsey]

What the Holy Spirit wrote in John 10 and Luke 15 is not my “opinion.” I have no “opinion” about those scriptures other than what is written in those chapters. I honestly represented what each verse said—quoting some verses “word for word.” So, no, those chapters in John and Luke are not anyone’s option—they are the word of God written by the Holy Spirit. John 17 says that God’s word is “truth.” So What God said in John 10 and Luke 15 is the “truth.” It’s not anyone’s opinion— and certainly not mine.

I have nothing to do with who receives God’s salvation. “Salvation” is God’s department. He makes the rules—about who receives it and HOW they receive it—not me. God has the Right to make the laws concerning salvation because He is the one who willingly went to the cross so all of us might receive it. Salvation is free to all who meet God’s requirements. Yes, God has laid down conditions or requirements that must be satisfied before He will give it to anyone. God is God. If He wants to make conditions, He can and He has. For example, here is one of His “conditions:”. John 14:6, Jesus says, “ No one comes to the Father except through me.” So here is how it works. Salvation is free to every person; BUT, God has made some rules that must be met before anyone can receive His salvation. We cannot have God as our Father unless we first believe and come to Jesus. It doesn’t matter if you or someone else agrees with that, thinks it is unfair or thinks it makes salvation NOT free—God has ordained this, it is His law,; and He has the authority and power to make that a condition for salvation. It’s His right. Jews and Muslins can “screen and holler” but that does not change what God has said. God is not going to change the rules for mankind. There are many, many conditions governing salvation in the Bible. Man has declared that if there are conditions, then it can’t be free. Who says? God says it is and yet He has made conditions. Who are you or me to tell God what He can and cannot do?

We have the same thing everyday in our lives here on earth and no one ever questions it unless it has to do with religion. For example, we just recently had a “Chicken Salad Chick” open in my hometown. They advertised that you could get FREE chicken salad every week fOR a year IF—see that word??— IF, you were one of the first 50 people in line. Was the chicken salad free for a year?? Yes. Was there a condition that you must meet in order to get the FREE chicken salad?? Yes! Businesses do it all the time— in fact almost EVERY time a free gift is offered—there are conditions that must be met.
So, the evangelist Phillip told the Ethiopian Eunuch that “IF” he “believed” he could be baptized. Baptism is for ”BELIEVERS.” The Bible says that baptism does several wonderful things—it forgives your sins Acts 2:38, it puts you into Christ (Gal. 3:27) where all spiritual blessings are; it puts you into His body, the church ( Col 2:12, 1:24). But there is a “condition” that must be met before one can be baptized—he must be a believer. Then, and only then, Will Christ give him the blessings that come with baptism. Is baptism free? Yes, to all people, everywhere. Just because there are “conditions” does not mean that it’s not free.

So, God has given us free will. That does not mean we have power to save ourselves. It simply means we can choose, to accept God’s salvation or not. But the only way we can get it is to meet His conditions. Whatever they are and however many there are. When we do, we are yielding to His authority, deity, and power. And His free gift of salvation is ours.

We all reach a conclusion based on our personal perspective. No one here is unbiased. What we should all strive for is the correct bias. I prefer Pauls term in describing Christian ‘Liberty.”

A Muslim or atheist can tell the world what a verse says. The goal is to interpret a verse in light of its context, culture, historical usage, and language, with the help of the Holy Spirit, to determine the correct meaning and application.

When we stand before Him to give an accounting, we cannot blame someone else or manufacture any excuse for our failure to understand what He expects of us, and what we in turn can expect from Him.