Loss of salvation???

[studier]

Interesting discussion re: what Scripture says and doesn't say. This is what matters.

 

[Genez]

Only Jesus' sheep in verse 27-28 are faithful in contrast with those who do not believe and are not His sheep in verse 26. Jesus mentions nothing in verse 27-28 about unfaithful sheep. That is your eisegesis.

I have proved from scripture in John 10:27-28 that Jesus gives His sheep eternal life, and they shall never perish or be snatched from His hand, but you simply refuse to see it. The words "lose or lost salvation" are found nowhere in scripture.

In Psalm 37:28, we read - For the Lord loves justice and does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off. How long is forever? In Jude 1:1 we read that those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, are also preserved in Jesus Christ.

In Hebrews 10:10, we read that we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all and in Hebrews 10:14, we read for by one offering he has perfected forever them that are sanctified.

In Proverbs 24:16, we read - For a righteous man may fall seven times and rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity. Did you see that?

In John 6:39, Jesus said - And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of everything that He has given Me I will lose nothing, but will raise it up on the last day. This is further confirmed in John 18:9 - that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none."

In Romans 8:30, we read - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress its certainty.

In 1 Corinthians 1:8, we read - He will also keep you firm to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. We also read about this guarantee in 1 Corinthians 1:22 and 2 Corinthians 5:5. In Ephesians 4:30 we read that believers are sealed unto/for the day of redemption.

Philippians 1:6 - being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ. You seem to trust in self-preservation over God's preservation.

Jesus did not mention His sheep who are not following Him in John 10:27-28 but Jesus does mention unbelievers in verse 26 who are not His sheep. (spiritually) I already proved my point aside from your long-winded personal commentary.

Jesus mentions nothing in John 10 about His sheep being divided into two separate groups of faithful and unfaithful, so your argument is moot.

Jesus' promises to His sheep in John 10:27-28 are wonderful promises and not man-made ideas. Your eisegesis does not destroy John 10:27-28. You need to read verses in context, properly harmonize scripture with scripture and rightly divide the word of truth before reaching your conclusion on doctrine. You are quick to jump to conclusions.

In context, we see that Jesus is directing this parable to the Pharisees and scribes who complained, saying that Jesus receives sinners and eats with them, while failing to recognize because of pride and self-righteousness that they were sinners themselves. The main point of this parable is not that one of Jesus' sheep who He gave eternal life lost their salvation and had to regain it back again, but the absolute importance of finding the one lost sheep -- there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

So, this parable does not teach that this one "sheep" in this case was a saved person who lost their salvation and had to repent and get saved all over again. That is not the point. Context is key. Luke 15:1-2 sets the scene. The religious leaders criticized Jesus for associating with these sinners. Jesus responds with three parables describing how these religious leaders should have reacted when faced with sinners who wish to repent.

Now look what Jesus said in Matthew 5:5 - These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

In Luke 19:10, we read - for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost. Not save those all over again who lost salvation. Jeremiah 50:6 - My people have been lost sheep. Their shepherds have led them astray. Doesn't mean they were saved. The Israelites are His people (chosen people of God) and His sheep physically, even the lost ones.

Continued..

Yes!
Worth repeating!

I have proved from scripture in John 10:27-28 that Jesus gives His sheep eternal life, and they shall never perish or be snatched from His hand, but you simply refuse to see it. The words "lose or lost salvation" are found nowhere in scripture.

My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, ​

and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. ​

​

​

It is really stubbornness for those who want to believe we can lose their salvation after reading that verse.
Looks like they must be bored with their life and must create a frightening challenge for themselves
to gain a sense of achievement.

All along... Jesus said that He came to give us abundant life if we would only stop playing games and humbly submit
to growing by grace in knowledge of His Word.

Yet, there will always be those kids who sit in their highchair, throwing their food because they can not get their way.
They throw around the Word of God likewise...

grace and peace .................

 

[Chester]

Sometimes in the middle of an intense debate over doctrines, one needs to simply step back and look at what Scripture clearly says:

Those who believe in Jesus have eternal life and will be with Jesus forever.
Those who do not believe in Jesus will suffer the wrath of God in hell forever.

Do you/I believe today in Jesus Christ? Yes = heaven No = hell

 

[Chester]

John 10: 27,28: My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

It sounds to me like a sheep that is hearing his voice ad following him will get to heaven.


John 3:36: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

It sounds to me like the one is not believing on the Son will go to hell.

Seems pretty simple and straightforward to me.

 

[Beckworth]

Auto correct is of the devil,I'm convinced. lol

The first paragraph as intended:

True. Simon the sorcerer thought if he claimed to believe and performed the rite,baptism,he would gain for himself the same powers as the Disciples of Christ.

The Holy Spirit is the one who said Simon believed, that’s not just my “opinion”, and I think He would know whether he did or not. He says, “…Simon, himself, BELIEVED…”. I have no desire to call the Holy Spirit a liar. So I will believe what the Spirit says. I can tell you this; from what I can read in the Bible, God is not pleased with anyone who does not believe His word.

 

[Sipsey]

The Holy Spirit is the one who said Simon believed, that’s not just my “opinion”, and I think He would know whether he did or not. He says, “…Simon, himself, BELIEVED…”. I have no desire to call the Holy Spirit a liar. So I will believe what the Spirit says. I can tell you this; from what I can read in the Bible, God is not pleased with anyone who does not believe His word.

Was Simon saved? Luke did not specify this clearly, so it is difficult to be dogmatic. But seven facts suggest that Simon probably was not born again:
(1) The verb “believe” (pisteuō) does not always refer to saving faith. Simon's faith could have been like that of the demons in Jas 2:19, merely intellectual assent.
(2) Furthermore, faith based on signs is not a trustworthy faith (cf. Jn 2:23-25; 4:48).
(3) In addition, Luke never stated that Simon received the Holy Spirit (Ac 8:17-18).
(4) Simon continued to have a self-centered interest in the display of miraculous power (vv. 18-19).
(5) The verb “repent” (metanoeō) used in verse 22 is normally addressed to lost people.
(6) The word “perish” (eis apōleian) employed in verse 20 is strong. It is related to the word “perish” in Jn 3:16.
(7) The description of Simon in Ac 8:23 is a better description of a lost man than of one who is saved

 

[Beckworth]

Was Simon saved? Luke did not specify this clearly, so it is difficult to be dogmatic. But seven facts suggest that Simon probably was not born again:
(1) The verb “believe” (pisteuō) does not always refer to saving faith. Simon's faith could have been like that of the demons in Jas 2:19, merely intellectual assent.
(2) Furthermore, faith based on signs is not a trustworthy faith (cf. Jn 2:23-25; 4:48).
(3) In addition, Luke never stated that Simon received the Holy Spirit (Ac 8:17-18).
(4) Simon continued to have a self-centered interest in the display of miraculous power (vv. 18-19).
(5) The verb “repent” (metanoeō) used in verse 22 is normally addressed to lost people.
(6) The word “perish” (eis apōleian) employed in verse 20 is strong. It is related to the word “perish” in Jn 3:16.
(7) The description of Simon in Ac 8:23 is a better description of a lost man than of one who is saved

If you believe what Jesus said in Mark 16:16, then yes, Simon was saved. But many people do not believe Jesus. The verses in Acts 8 all testify to the fact that Simon was saved. 1)First of all he BELIEVED. I know he did actually believe because the Holy Spirit says so. Now, I don’t believe a person can be saved by “faith only” because the Holy Spirit said “NOT by “faith only” in James 2:24, but Calvinist’s and Baptists and many others don’t believe what the Spirit says here, either. So, perhaps you are one of those who don’t believe what the Spirit says in James 2:24. If so, then by YOUR doctrine he was saved, because I know the Spirit did not lie and He says Simon believed. So if you believe in faith only, then you must believe he was saved. But, I believe what Jesus said in Mark 16:16- “He that believes and is baptized shall be saved.” I don’t think Jesus lied about that, do you?? Acts 8:13 says, “Simin himself believed and when he was baptised, he continued with Phillip…” Simon did exactly what Jesus said you must do to be saved in Mark 16:16. Surely, Jesus did not lie! If Simon wasn’t saved, then Jesus would have to be a LIAR, and we can’t believe anything He says or the Bible either. How can we trust Him if what He says is not true??? I don’t know about you, if you believe Jesus or not, but I do and so I would have to say that yes, according to what Jesus says in Mark 16:16, Simon the sorcerer was saved. Of course all of this hinges on whether or not YOU believe what Jesus said and what the Holy Spirit wrote. I certainly hope you are not an UNBELIEVER.

 

[Sipsey]

If you believe what Jesus said in Mark 16:16, then yes, Simon was saved. But many people do not believe Jesus. The verses in Acts 8 all testify to the fact that Simon was saved. 1)First of all he BELIEVED. I know he did actually believe because the Holy Spirit says so. Now, I don’t believe a person can be saved by “faith only” because the Holy Spirit said “NOT by “faith only” in James 2:24, but Calvinist’s and Baptists and many others don’t believe what the Spirit says here, either. So, perhaps you are one of those who don’t believe what the Spirit says in James 2:24. If so, then by YOUR doctrine he was saved, because I know the Spirit did not lie and He says Simon believed. So if you believe in faith only, then you must believe he was saved. But, I believe what Jesus said in Mark 16:16- “He that believes and is baptized shall be saved.” I don’t think Jesus lied about that, do you?? Acts 8:13 says, “Simin himself believed and when he was baptised, he continued with Phillip…” Simon did exactly what Jesus said you must do to be saved in Mark 16:16. Surely, Jesus did not lie! If Simon wasn’t saved, then Jesus would have to be a LIAR, and we can’t believe anything He says or the Bible either. How can we trust Him if what He says is not true??? I don’t know about you, if you believe Jesus or not, but I do and so I would have to say that yes, according to what Jesus says in Mark 16:16, Simon the sorcerer was saved. Of course all of this hinges on whether or not YOU believe what Jesus said and what the Holy Spirit wrote. I certainly hope you are not an UNBELIEVER.

Can one be baptized in water and not be saved?

 

[Magenta]

John 10: 27,28: My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

It sounds to me like a sheep that is hearing his voice ad following him will get to heaven.

John 3:36: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

It sounds to me like the one is not believing on the Son will go to hell.

Seems pretty simple and straightforward to me.

It is straightforward and Jesus says not all hear, also, but we have those who contradict this, and claim everyone hears, and some who say the gospel is comprehensible to the natural man, while Scripture says the natural man can neither receive nor comprehend the spiritual things of God, the gospel being foolishness to him, while others go on and on about man's will being free even though the whole world is under the influence of the evil one and some are explicitly said to have been taken captive to the will of the devil. It becomes obvious that many make no distinction between the natural man and the spiritual man and ascribe to the former what is only true of the latter. The natural man is defined as darkness itself, a person who suppresses the truth in unrighteousness, a slave to sin and lover of darkness, inherently hostile in his mind toward God and opposed to Spiritual things... but if you affirm these Scriptural truths, people will hate on you and try to shoehorn you into some ism they hate so they can rationalize and justify saying hateful things about you. All the more so when they make up things that have zero Scriptural backing and try to pass it off as being equal to the revealed written Word of God.

John 10 verses 27-28 My sheep hear My voice, I know them and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand.

 

[bluejean_bible]

The Holy Spirit is the one who said Simon believed, that’s not just my “opinion”, and I think He would know whether he did or not. He says, “…Simon, himself, BELIEVED…”. I have no desire to call the Holy Spirit a liar. So I will believe what the Spirit says. I can tell you this; from what I can read in the Bible, God is not pleased with anyone who does not believe His word.

Well,there's a big difference between study so to know the scriptures. And the default position that fails to,then claims they won't call HS a liar because they failed to study so to know what HS said and meant.

 

[bluejean_bible]

The Holy Spirit is the one who said Simon believed, that’s not just my “opinion”, and I think He would know whether he did or not. He says, “…Simon, himself, BELIEVED…”. I have no desire to call the Holy Spirit a liar. So I will believe what the Spirit says. I can tell you this; from what I can read in the Bible, God is not pleased with anyone who does not believe His word.

Well,there's a big difference between study so to know the scriptures. And the default position that fails to,then claims th66ey won't call HS a liar because they failed to study so to know what HS said and meant.

 

[armchairscholar]

This is very true, even the Hebrews 6 verse does not clearly state that a truly saved person lost their salvation, I don't believe we can "barely taste" salvation. We're born again or not. I have come to see that a LOT of this debate hinges on what the person thinks of the power of God. If a person thinks that we are born with "free" will and that they chose to come to God, then it only follows logically that we have to be able to choose to walk away, if we feel like it later. This was how I looked at it at first too. I'd think "If I **FREELY **choose to follow Him and am transformed by His power, am I now stuck here a slave? Can I not choose to walk away if I want?"


It made no sense at all to come in a "free" man and then be made to stay a slave. Then my own personal testimony and His Spirit smacked me in the head with truth. I didn't "choose" Him when I was saved. As a matter of fact, I had already responded to an alter call, repeated the prayer, and was declared saved by my choice, by my pastor, so thought I'd already done the whole Christian thing and found it to be worthless in the trials going on then.


We also have to clear up that me saying God is in control of everything does not mean I believe that we don't have choice, nor does it mean that I believe that our choices don't matter. However, I say that even the man that hears the gospel, hits his knees and turns from his wicked way to God, and is born again in truth right then in there, is only doing what God empowered him to do and God gets ALL the glory and credit for his salvation too. In my case this is completely undeniable.


When God brought me to my knees, I didn't even think God was real anymore. When He showed me "my way" for what it was in truth, and everything that it was leading to, I had no clue what was going on at all. I just hit my knees in defeat and cried "I can't do this anymore, I can't do this anymore, I can't do this anymore, world you win, I lose, and I quit!"


I woke up the next day new, and God did it all, not me, not my choice, not the church I go to or the pastor that preaches, God did it. We are told very clearly that salvation is of God, and we cannot boast period. When someone says "god saved us, but we have to come to Him, or we have to choose Him, He throws the life preserver, but you have to grab it. I disagree with everything after and "but". God saves us. Period. No "but" after it, but I do so understanding why they believe these things having shared this understanding myself, for a time.


The truth is that we can no more "unsave" ourselves, as we can save ourselves. The ultimate truth of the matter, and the one we tend to hate most about God, is that He is in control and we are not. This truth people will do anything to avoid, including mislabeling other people, ignoring their every word and telling them what they believe, before turning around and destroying the belief they just tacked to the person. Then going on a high five validation party with each other celebrating their ownage over wickedness.


But my main point in this much longer that I intended comment, is that when we think it's us in control it follows logically that we can lose salvation, but in the light of the Spirit and truth we see that Gods power is so much bigger than our fleshly minds could have ever comprehended and we know that God did it all.

What you're describing—that moment of surrender where you cried "I can't do this anymore"—is what we sometimes call "the end of self-effort." Psychologically, it's a profound moment when our ego defenses finally collapse and true transformation becomes possible. Throughout Christian history, many saints have described similar experiences of hitting bottom before experiencing God's grace.
The theological debate you've touched on—free will versus God's sovereignty—has been wrestled with since Augustine and Pelagius went head-to-head in the 5th century! The early church fathers like Irenaeus and Justin Martyr tried to hold both truths in tension. Later, this debate would shape the Reformation, with Luther and Calvin emphasizing God's sovereignty while others pushed back.

What strikes me about your experience is how it mirrors what we see in addiction recovery. The first step in AA is admitting powerlessness—which is essentially what you described in your spiritual journey. There's something deeply important about recognizing our limitations before transformation can happen.

From my perspective, your story illustrates what psychologists call "transformative surrender"—when we stop trying to control everything and paradoxically find freedom in submission. This isn't about losing your identity but finding your true one.

Church history shows us this pattern repeatedly—from Paul's experience on the Damascus road to Augustine's "take up and read" moment in the garden. These weren't logical decisions but supernatural interventions that changed everything.

I appreciate your humility in acknowledging that you once held different views. That's the mark of someone who's on a genuine journey rather than just defending a position.

 

[mailmandan]

What you're describing—that moment of surrender where you cried "I can't do this anymore"—is what we sometimes call "the end of self-effort." Psychologically, it's a profound moment when our ego defenses finally collapse and true transformation becomes possible. Throughout Christian history, many saints have described similar experiences of hitting bottom before experiencing God's grace.
The theological debate you've touched on—free will versus God's sovereignty—has been wrestled with since Augustine and Pelagius went head-to-head in the 5th century! The early church fathers like Irenaeus and Justin Martyr tried to hold both truths in tension. Later, this debate would shape the Reformation, with Luther and Calvin emphasizing God's sovereignty while others pushed back.

What strikes me about your experience is how it mirrors what we see in addiction recovery. The first step in AA is admitting powerlessness—which is essentially what you described in your spiritual journey. There's something deeply important about recognizing our limitations before transformation can happen.

From my perspective, your story illustrates what psychologists call "transformative surrender"—when we stop trying to control everything and paradoxically find freedom in submission. This isn't about losing your identity but finding your true one.

Church history shows us this pattern repeatedly—from Paul's experience on the Damascus road to Augustine's "take up and read" moment in the garden. These weren't logical decisions but supernatural interventions that changed everything.

I appreciate your humility in acknowledging that you once held different views. That's the mark of someone who's on a genuine journey rather than just defending a position.

Well said. Until we get to the end of the creature, we will not get to the beginning of the Creator.

 

[Beckworth]

Can one be baptized in water and not be saved?

Yes. Acts 19 tells of some disciples who were RE- baptized because they were baptized (in water) with the wrong baptism.

 

[Beckworth]

Well,there's a big difference between study so to know the scriptures. And the default position that fails to,then claims th66ey won't call HS a liar because they failed to study so to know what HS said and meant.

The Bible makes no such distinction as you are making. The word of God (overall) is simple to understand. Take it at face value. God is not trying to trick us with some kind of difficult, hidden meaning that requires lexicons and a knowledge of the Greek language In order to understand it. If the Holy Spirit says that Simon believed, then Simon believed. God has, on occasion, revealed false motives and insincerity in people. See Philippians 1:15-16. But unless He tells us, we do not need to imagine evil (ICor. 13) and make judgements about the sincerity of their hearts.

baptism.