No living faith without works
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What are we debating then?
You quoted Ephesians 2:8-9
Your post no. 553
I ADDED Ephesians 2:10 because it is left out many tmes.
Ephesians 2:10 states that we are CREATED for good works and that we are to WALK IN THEM.
If we do NOT walk in them...
then we're disobeying jesus, Paul and all the writers of the NT.
Correct.If something "is no longer" then it once was.
FAITH ALONE is valid 100%
BEFORE salvation.
It is NO LONGER VALID for
AFTER salvation.
Your post no. 553 which was to me....
does NOT support the idea of FAITH ALONE
as YOU SEEM to define it...
since you will not give a proper definition.
Galatians 2:15, your verse, is referring to The Law.
We, on this Forum, all know that the Law was abolished.
Your verse would have to show that GOOD WORKS/DEEDS (NOT THE LAW) are not necessary to follow.
Ephesians 2:8-9 your verses are referring to INITIAL SALVATION .
Everyone on this Forum believes we are saved by FAITH ALONE.
Please address what happens to faith AFTER salvation....
Is it still ALONE?
Do you have anything serious to add to this conversation?
Doesn't look like it.
However, your statement has been noted.
True. Faith is valid for salvation. That's an important distinction. God doesn't accept works in place of faith for salvation.
Once a person is saved, there is a new paradigm in place, and the old pre-salvation paradigm is irrelevant.
However, (and this is what the Sabbatarians, Judaizers and legalists get wrong), works of the Law (obedience to the Mosaic statutes) are also irrelevant, because the now-saved person is not under the law.
What does matter is expression of faith in God through good works. What the OP of this thread doesn't understand, and apparently refuses even to attempt to understand, is that "faith alone" only refers to the process leading to and encompassing salvation. From the point of salvation forward, "faith alone" is no longer relevant.
See, you respond with sarcasim and I have read some of your really rude comments to others where you are making fun of them
I don't think we have anything helpful to say to each other.
Not according to John. 1 John 3:7 - Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
Are you gaslighting me? I do use scrpture. Continuously.
If John wanted to make obedience/works which "follows" believing the central theme here in John 3:36, then he would have said he who believes "and obeys" the Son, but that is not what John said. To not obey the Son here is to refuse to believe in the Son. This lines up with multiple other verses which simply say BELIEVES. (John 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 12:25,26)
Your MUST culminates in "type 2 works salvation" or salvation by works at the back door, which is legalism.
What believer would not believe that obedience was important? Of course it's important but you could never be obedient enough to earn your way to heaven. That would take sinless, perfect obedience 100% of the time, which only describes Jesus Christ.
In regard to Hebrews 10:26, to "sin willfully" carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is continuous action, a matter of practice. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle shows willful, habitual continuous action. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9). *Hermeneutics.
Now if the word 'sanctified' in Hebrews 10:29 is used to describe saved people who lost their salvation, then we have a contradiction because the writer of Hebrews in verse 10 said sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Hebrews 10:10) and in verse 14, we read, "perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:14) So in Hebrews 10:10, we clearly read ..WE have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all and in Hebrews 10:14, we read - For by one offering He has perfected for all time THOSE who are sanctified. To go from sanctified back to un-sanctified would be in contradiction here.
*NOWHERE in the context does it specifically say the person who "trampled underfoot the Son of God and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant" was "saved" and/or "lost their salvation." The reference to "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" in verse 29 "on the surface" appears to be referring to a Christian, but this overlooks the fact that the word translated "sanctified" (which is the verb form of the adjective "holy") which means "set apart," and doesn't necessarily refer to salvation.
Strong's Concordance
hagiazó: to make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Original Word: ἁγιάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: hagiazó
Phonetic Spelling: (hag-ee-ad'-zo)
Definition: to make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Usage: I make holy, treat as holy, set apart as holy, sanctify, hallow, purify.
*In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses it to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "sanctified" or "set apart" by their believing spouse (and by this Paul does not mean that they are saved). A non-Christian can be "set apart" from other non-Christians without experiencing salvation as Paul explained. So, the word "sanctified" means to be "set apart." If the word "sanctified" simply meant saved, then you would have to say that the seventh day was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), Moses saved the people after coming down off the mountain (Exodus 19:14), the priests and the Levites saved themselves (1 Chronicles 15:14), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36), the Son saved Himself (John 17:19) and many other things that do not line up with scripture.
In verse 39, the writer of Hebrews sets up the CONTRAST that makes it clear to me that he was referring to make believers, "nominal" Christians, not saved people: But WE are not of those who draw back to perdition, but OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.
John 3:36 - The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him. (HCSB) Not obeying here is refusing to believe in the Son. Beyond that obedience/practicing righteousness is a manifestation of belief and disobedience/practising sin is a manifestation of unbelief.
Two different words is not a problem. Again, the Greek word translated as "believeth not" in John 3:36 is apeitheo and it means: not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving.
Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." In the context of 3:36, to not obey the Son means to refuse to believe in the Son. You keep trying to turn obey by choosing to believe into salvation by obedience/works after believing. Your argument culminates in works-righteousness.
According to you, Christ saves us by faith, but then the believer must maintain and preserve what Christ has already finished.
I would push that anxiety further into continuous torment.
Imagine the agony of never knowing whether God will take into account, a very long list
of sins during your life. A thousand sinful thoughts and totally unacceptable behaviors at times.
The law pulls no punches because the law states that the sinner will die.
In Jerusalem in the first century don't get caught transgressing the law, because it will cost
you your life. The law was serious business and they were not playing games.
Lying against Scripture of God, by adding one's own false words.
Mar 10:20
And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
It's a lie that Jesus accuses him of not keeping His commandments, but rather Jesus loves him for it.
It's a lie that Jesus declares keeping His commandments are not needful, but rather that keeping His commandments alone is not sufficient, if we lack faith to personally follow Him while keeping His commandments.
Luk 17:10
So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.
With Jesus Christ, keeping His commandments alone is not sufficient. He is an unprofitable servant. Keeping faith-alone isn't even sufficient to be a servant at all, much less profitable.
Only with self-justifiers is keeping faith-alone sufficient for themselves.
While keeping His commandments.
Neither the young ruler nor Mary can be accused of not keeping the Lord God's commandments. The difference is Mary also having faith to follow Jesus wheresoever He was.
And no one having faith-alone is following Jesus anywhere, while not keeping His commandments.
Jhn 15:10
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
1Jo 2:3
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Rev 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
We see how the gospel of faith in Jesus Christ according to the Scriptures, is being perverted by another gospel of faith-alone in Christ.
The one thing needful for Jesus while keeping His commandments, is faith to follow Him wherever He says. The only thing needful to justify oneself while not keeping His commandments is faith-alone.
And so, we see how keeping His commandments and following Jesus personally, makes His disciples perfect in His faith. The same as Abraham was made perfect and justified by works of faith:
James{2:21}
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
And so once again, not only is keeping God's commandments necessary to be justified with God, but faith must be made perfect by also doing the personal will of Jesus, while keeping His commandments.
And of course, faith-alone justification without keeping God's commandments, also denies ever being made perfect in this life, neither by faith nor works.
For the faith of Jesus Christ, the race to follow Him only begins with keeping His commandments. Following wheresoever He goes is running to finish the race. Faith-alone justification without works, doesn't even begin the race. But only seeks to run the race without the lawful starting gate.
2Ti 2:5
And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully.
Like the crippled man laying by the healing pool, making no effort to enter in himself. Some people look for Jesus to carry them by their faith-alone. That's exactly why they say: Justification by faith-alone, is 'all about' what their Christ has done, and is doing, but themselves having no part with works.
Heb 4:11
Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Not much more to add, no. I've done so in making my points and discussing others. I enjoy the topic a lot and will continue to follow the posts.
Thank You and be blessed
It's no wonder people with faith-alone know that they aren't justified by their works, when they're still doing dung things. Only by faith-alone apart from works, can anyone be justified by acknowledging their works are still filthy as dung.
Another faith-alone favorite quote to justify themselves with, is from Ps 14 about still being altogether filthy and no good.
Ps 14:1
The fool saith in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
The thing they blind themselves to, however, is that the condemnation is only written to them that deny God, and do not seek Him to do good and keep His commandments
Tit 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
And of course, the Scriptures are once again corrupted, so as to make the apostle Paul also a filthy dung doer, as well as the worst of sinners strikingly like themselves:
Phl 3:7
But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
The past works of Saul of Tarsus, that Paul the apostle counted as but dung, was Jewish circumcision, keeping their law, and persecuting the churches of Jesus Christ. Paul can't be speaking of His converted life to Jesus Christ, where he all his good labours and doings are now by His grace:
Gal 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
1Co 15:10
But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
And so, we see how faith-alone ideology is more than willing to quote condemnation of Scripture for themselves, as being the same as unbelievers doing the same things. But also to justify their own self-acknowledged filthy works, by defaming the apostles of Jesus Christ as strikingly being dung doers like themselves.
Unfortunately, that applies to everyone even you.
Theology is embedded in the understanding of Christianity right across the spectrum.
Less than two dozen letters in the N.T and that's not many.
Some of these letters are a few pages if that.
Three letters are synoptic, the same.
Yet, some how, we have so many different interpretations of the scripture.
Most people could not read until public education in the late 18th century.
Is it 21 letters, simple letters except for Revelation.
Something is wrong and it's difficult to comprehend.
2Th 1:4
So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:...
The troubling of the church is persecutions and unjust tribulations.
2Th 1:5
Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:...In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Which persecutions and tribulations were by them, that reject the righteous judgment of God by works, and obey not the gospel and commandments of the Lord.
Who rejects God's righteous judgment of our works? Who denies obedience and keeping commandments is necessary to be justified with God? The unbelievers of course, but also believers in faith-alone justification: They likewise deny their works are righteously judged by God, because obedient works are not necessary to be justified with God...
So, who is persecuting who? Who is persecuted by preaching obedience to the gospel and commandments of our Lord Jesus Christ, in order not to be righteously judged by our works in flaming vengeance? Not an faithful Christian keeping His commandments, and following Him obediently wheresoever He goes:
2Co 11:2
For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
Rev 14:4
These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
In any case, them that are keeping the faith and commandments of Jesus, are not bothered at all by being accused of 'faith-based' justification, but rather with Abraham and Rahab and Mary, they accept the honor given as insult:
1Th 5:13
And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.
You are a fool to continue to attribute everything with which you disagree to people who believe in your warped misunderstanding of "faith alone"...
especially as NOBODY holds to it.
It's just a straw man you've invented. It's just a windmill in your mind for your self-righteous tilting.
Once again. No single example of unconditional love nor grace in Scripture.
Mark{1:15}
The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Acts{3:19}
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Cor {7:10}
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of:
Jesus only forgives them that repent for His grace and faith, not any one that repents not, whether with or without having faith-alone.
I am not forgiven by Jesus Christ nor justified with Him, if I am sinning against Him with the world.
How about you? Are you forgiven and justified with your Christ, while you are sinning with the world?
You've already made such foolish accusations enough, without ever denying any part in it, nor showing how any part disagrees with your own of faith-alone.
Until you do so honestly, and show how you disagree with any specific point, then in this matter we're done. Adios.