Replacement theology? Yes or No.

[WayneNSO]

Concerning Matthew 24, you have a generation that saw the temple being destroyed in 70 AD and then the chapter goes on to show a future generation witnessing a larger fulfillment of that prophecy upon the return of Jesus Christ Himself. That's how most prophetic books are written.

I know that is how most prophetic books are written today, but just because something is popular in todays world does not mean it is true.

And also, I was brought up a Catholic as a child, for a very short time, but I was taught by them to always appeal to Aurthority if I wanted a question answered, as in the Priest knows best etc. These days I do not respect someone knowledge wise just because they have letters after their name, or they are seen as some sort of expert by the world. Not putting people on pedestals is a big help for me

 

[Revelation1v8]

I know that is how most prophetic books are written today, but just because something is popular in todays world does not mean it is true.

And also, I was brought up a Catholic as a child, for a very short time, but I was taught by them to always appeal to Aurthority if I wanted a question answered, as in the Priest knows best etc. These days I do not respect someone knowledge wise just because they have letters after their name, or they are seen as some sort of expert by the world. Not putting people on pedestals is a big help for me

I'm talking about the Bible here. The Old Testament was written before Jesus came along and He quoted from 26 books of it, so I'm not sure what you mean by "prophetic books", I'm talking about the prophetic books of the Bible.

 

[WayneNSO]

Remind me of what your "conclusion" came to.

You can put me in the historicism camp, but please do not put me in the SDA version of historicism camp, to me that is twisted by the teachings of their prophetess.

 

[WayneNSO]

I'm talking about the Bible here. The Old Testament was written before Jesus came along and He quoted from 26 books of it, so I'm not sure what you mean by "prophetic books", I'm talking about the prophetic books of the Bible.

Sorry I misunderstood, I thought you meant books sold on the book shelves

 

[cv5]

Remind me of what your "conclusion" came to.

My question as well......

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I get your point, but there is plenty of evidence in the book of Revelation to confirm the dating before 70AD. I was just pointing out one.

Yea but my point is even though you think there’s plenty of evidence . Someone arguing for after ad 70 would and do say the same thing . But neither side actually can prove when it was written


its sort of a point that both sides often use to support thier point or reject the other persons but in reality there is no way to empirically prove when it was written . It’s just a basic point bro I wasn’t saying it was written after I was saying there’s no way to prove when it was written by anyone

 

[Pilgrimshope]

In ot, many ethnic Israelites were not followers of God, while a few were.
Daniel was the only one not bowing to statue, 3 young men only ones didn't bow to earthly king n.

God was using national Israel as a shadow , or to say a theatrical play to showcase what is to come.

Never about ethnicity, only about faith in God.

Yes israel rebelled continuously I wasn’t saying they were followers of God as a nation I was saying god had chosen them based on the promise made to Abraham.

thier national path was constant rebellion and idol worship it’s why God destroyed them when they killed his son


In the ot the covenant is here between these parties

“These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭29:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭6:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭31:16‬ ‭

None of thisbis applicable to gentiles because we weren’t part of the covenants made before Christ appeared


His covenant people in the ot was the children of Israel . It’s why Paul later in the nt explains this in the ot gentiles we’re excuded Paul’s explaining the fix here for gentiles

“Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; that at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:


but now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:11-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Notice the blood of Jesus an Israelite of the tribe of Judah is the blood that makes gentiles part of Gods family ….. it’s the same with Israelites they have to have the blood of Gods seed of promise thier flesh and blood no longer makes a difference


Jesus alone is the hier of Abraham and those who are in him the result bieng here

“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:16, 26-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

airs always been about the faithful israel had many faithful just as today there are faithful former Jew and gentile Christian’s.

But they don’t worship god through Judaism rejecting Christ . Nationally they are still rebellion and rejecting Christ and his name and blood I don’t really understand the arguments how they are being restored by god , while they still reject him following doctrines of angels given to them in ancient times

 

[Revelation1v8]

I get your point, but there is plenty of evidence in the book of Revelation to confirm the dating before 70AD. I was just pointing out one.

Here's what my A.I. Assistant has to say about it:

Most traditions date John’s exile to Patmos to the late first century, specifically c. AD 95–96, during the final years of Emperor Domitian’s reign. This majority view is supported by early church historians like Irenaeus and Eusebius, who linked the banishment to the persecution of Christians under Domitian.

A minority scholarly view suggests an earlier date, placing the exile during the persecution under Emperor Nero (c. AD 64–68). However, the Domitianic date is generally preferred because it aligns with historical records of political amnesties issued by the subsequent Emperor Nerva in AD 96, which led to John’s release and return to Ephesus.

 

[Churchgoer]

Yes israel rebelled continuously I wasn’t saying they were followers of God as a nation I was saying god had chosen them based on the promise made to Abraham.

thier national path was constant rebellion and idol worship it’s why God destroyed them when they killed his son


In the ot the covenant is here between these parties

“These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭29:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭6:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭31:16‬ ‭

None of thisbis applicable to gentiles because we weren’t part of the covenants made before Christ appeared


His covenant people in the ot was the children of Israel . It’s why Paul later in the nt explains this in the ot gentiles we’re excuded Paul’s explaining the fix here for gentiles

“Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; that at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:


but now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:11-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Notice the blood of Jesus an Israelite of the tribe of Judah is the blood that makes gentiles part of Gods family ….. it’s the same with Israelites they have to have the blood of Gods seed of promise thier flesh and blood no longer makes a difference


Jesus alone is the hier of Abraham and those who are in him the result bieng here

“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:16, 26-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

airs always been about the faithful israel had many faithful just as today there are faithful former Jew and gentile Christian’s.

But they don’t worship god through Judaism rejecting Christ . Nationally they are still rebellion and rejecting Christ and his name and blood I don’t really understand the arguments how they are being restored by god , while they still reject him following doctrines of angels given to them in ancient times

I get your point.
Step back looking entire Bible, it is not about ethnicity, but about faith in Jesus.
Job was not Israelite. Neither was Abraham, noah, seth...

 

[cv5]

Here's what my A.I. Assistant has to say about it:

Most traditions date John’s exile to Patmos to the late first century, specifically c. AD 95–96, during the final years of Emperor Domitian’s reign. This majority view is supported by early church historians like Irenaeus and Eusebius, who linked the banishment to the persecution of Christians under Domitian.

A minority scholarly view suggests an earlier date, placing the exile during the persecution under Emperor Nero (c. AD 64–68). However, the Domitianic date is generally preferred because it aligns with historical records of political amnesties issued by the subsequent Emperor Nerva in AD 96, which led to John’s release and return to Ephesus.

Clearly 95-ish AD is the correct answer. There is zero reason to think otherwise, unless you are intent on selling bogus dogma while denying the true.

BTW, these supercessionists cannot answer the simple question: what exactly is the trigger for the Second Coming?
This gaping yawning chasm of ignorance exists despite staggering acre-feet of clear compelling Scripture presenting the unequivocal facts so clearly than a kindergarten child could not fail to grasp what is being conveyed in these HUNDREDS of passages.

Let me tell you, when I engage this gang, It is immediately evident that I won the wisdom and knowledge lottery......

 

[Revelation1v8]

Clearly 95-ish AD is the correct answer. There is zero reason to think otherwise, unless you are intent on selling bogus dogma while denying the true.

BTW, these supercessionists cannot answer the simple question: what exactly is the trigger for the Second Coming?
This gaping yawning chasm of ignorance exists despite staggering acre-feet of clear compelling Scripture presenting the unequivocal facts so clearly than a kindergarten child could not fail to grasp what is being conveyed in these HUNDREDS of passages.

Let me tell you, when I engage this gang, It is immediately evident that I won the wisdom and knowledge lottery......

You crack me up.

This is what I've told many on here before; if the Holy Spirit revealed everything to everyone (including Christians) at the same time, then God's plan for the world (as written) probably wouldn't unfold so easily. Some people need to remain blinded until the right time, just like the Jews.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I get your point.
Step back looking entire Bible, it is not about ethnicity, but about faith in Jesus.
Job was not Israelite. Neither was Abraham, noah, seth...

Exactly isralites were jacobs descendants Jacobs name literally was changed to isreal ….. and the covenant was made with the children of Israel ……


but Abraham is the father of many nations and all people of the earth would be blessed through him and his seed of promise

“and I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭12:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭17:4-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬


The reason we need the nt is to understand how that above applies to Abraham fether of many nations and his seed look at the promise of an eternal covenant with Abraham’s seed there ?

“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:27-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.”
if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”

 

[cv5]

You crack me up.

This is what I've told many on here before; if the Holy Spirit revealed everything to everyone (including Christians) at the same time, then God's plan for the world (as written) probably wouldn't unfold so easily. Some people need to remain blinded until the right time, just like the Jews.

Not buying it. Failure to comprehend is one thing, sinister denials with an agenda is quite another.
And despising Israel has no excuse either.

Indwelling of the Holy Spirit reveals truth when it arrives. And it DEFINITLY has arrived on this thread!
What I see is judicial blindness. Bummer for them.....

1Co 2:12
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Cameron143]

Here's what my A.I. Assistant has to say about it:

Most traditions date John’s exile to Patmos to the late first century, specifically c. AD 95–96, during the final years of Emperor Domitian’s reign. This majority view is supported by early church historians like Irenaeus and Eusebius, who linked the banishment to the persecution of Christians under Domitian.

A minority scholarly view suggests an earlier date, placing the exile during the persecution under Emperor Nero (c. AD 64–68). However, the Domitianic date is generally preferred because it aligns with historical records of political amnesties issued by the subsequent Emperor Nerva in AD 96, which led to John’s release and return to Ephesus.

Most people didn't follow Jesus. Pretty sure He was right.

A 95 AD date misses the whole reason the book was written. I'll have time later to outline the book for you. Interestingly enough, the outline is identical to the outline of the book of Deuteronomy. So if the book of Deuteronomy is about the onset of a covenant, what do you suppose the book of Revelation might be about?

 

[cv5]

All of God's word is Covenant Theology!!

I would say it is the other way around, dispensationalism is refuted in every book of of the Bible.

Anybody with functioning grey matter realizes that the COVENANT SEQUENCE is ordained WITHIN the framework of "dispensationalism". As is the SEQUENCE of eschatological events.

For pity's sake Daniel is LOADED eschatological sequences bounded by the time stream.

 

[OMC]

Yes, you ARE indeed unteachable. You got that one right. Congratulations,.
And yes, I am in fact correct on the matter so noted.
And yes, Fruchtenbaum is a fine scholar who outranks the vast majority, and his eschatology is just about perfect.
And yes, the views expressed around here are for the most part infantile and biblically illiterate. The fault being a failure to rightly understand the message of the OT and all things JEWISH.

Frankly, I am astonished at how people are entrenched in tawdry myths and fables that they conjure up as a means to deny the Nation Israel their right and destiny to have the Kingdom restored to them. But the psychology of denial being what it is, this I also understand.

It’s adorable that you think calling people “unteachable” magically transforms your system into Scripture, especially when the Bible’s actual test for a teacher is “if anyone speaks, let him speak as the oracles of God” (1 Pet 4:11) — not “as the oracles of Fruchtenbaum,” but please, do go on about how your favorite commentator is “just about perfect”; Paul must be kicking himself for not footnoting him in Romans 11, where the actual text says “not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel” (Rom 9:6) and “there is at this present time a remnant according to grace” (Rom 11:5), which is wild because that sounds suspiciously like the kingdom isn’t waiting on your eschatological fan club to validate it; and your claim that everyone else is “infantile and biblically illiterate” is precious, especially since Jesus said the ones who miss the Scriptures are the ones who “search them” while refusing to come to Him (John 5:39–40), meaning your entire rant reads like Exhibit A of the very blindness you accuse others of; and your dramatic lament about “tawdry myths and fables” is rich, considering Paul already warned about people “devoting themselves to myths” (1 Tim 1:4) and “turning aside to fables” (2 Tim 4:4), which — irony of ironies — is exactly what happens when someone elevates a system above the text and then pretends Israel’s “right and destiny” is something Scripture forgot to mention outside your preferred charts; but yes, please continue being “astonished” that people don’t bow to your hermeneutical empire — the prophets would be astonished too, mostly because they already said the restored kingdom comes when God acts (Ezek 37:24–28), not when you win an argument on the internet.

 

[HeIsHere]

Anybody with functioning grey matter realizes that the COVENANT SEQUENCE is ordained WITHIN the framework of "dispensationalism". As is the SEQUENCE of eschatological events.

For pity's sake Daniel is LOADED eschatological sequences bounded by the time stream.

The church (ekkelesia) was present in the OT as already shown over and over.

No one reads scripture and finds dispensationalism, no one, but it can be a constructed with an end goal in mind, by highlighting certain verses and downplaying the others, you know the usual approach of false systems.

 

[Revelation1v8]

Exactly isralites were jacobs descendants Jacobs name literally was changed to isreal ….. and the covenant was made with the children of Israel ……


but Abraham is the father of many nations and all people of the earth would be blessed through him and his seed of promise

“and I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭12:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭17:4-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬


The reason we need the nt is to understand how that above applies to Abraham fether of many nations and his seed look at the promise of an eternal covenant with Abraham’s seed there ?

“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:27-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.”
if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”

Let's not forget that as Gentiles, we are "fellowheirs". You have the literal heirs of Israel and the fellowheirs in the Gentile nations. The seed of Abraham is both literal (Israelites) and spiritual (Gentiles). For Paul, he had to experience a personal revelation from Jesus Christ himself in order to believe, since he was formerly persecuting Christians before Jesus met him while on the road to Damascus.

Ephesians 3:3-7

3 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
It will be the same way for many Israelites when Jesus returns, cuts down all the nations that ever tried to come up against Jerusalem (Zechariah 12), and preserve a repentant remnant of them to remain in the land in order to bless them (Zechariah 13:8-9).

This is why it strikes me so odd that someone would publish a verse like the one below and immediately try to turn it around and explain it away....

“and I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭12:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Maybe that verse alone should be one that we ponder and seek out more detail, so here is the expanded A.I. explanation of Genesis 12:3.

Genesis 12:3 is a pivotal covenantal declaration where God promises three distinct outcomes regarding Abraham (then Abram): divine protection for his allies, judgment for his adversaries, and universal salvation through his lineage. The verse states: "I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."

1. Divine Protection and Covenant Alignment​

The first two clauses establish a principle of divine justice and alignment. God identifies His cause with Abraham’s, promising to favor those who support him and curse those who oppose him. This serves as a protective guarantee for Abraham and his descendants, signaling that treatment of God’s chosen people is treated as treatment of God Himself. Historically, this is seen in events like the plagues upon Pharaoh when he mistreated Abraham, illustrating that opposing Abraham is equivalent to opposing God’s redemptive agenda.

2. Universal Blessing Through Christ​

The third clause, "in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed," shifts the focus from national protection to global redemption. This is the theological heart of the verse, indicating that God’s choice of Abraham was not merely for ethnic privilege but to serve as the channel for saving all humanity. Christian theology, particularly in the New Testament (e.g., Galatians 3:8, 16), interprets this as a prophecy of Jesus Christ, a descendant of Abraham, through whom salvation and justification by faith are offered to all nations.

3. Theological and Practical Implications​

Theologically, Genesis 12:3 introduces the Abrahamic Covenant, which includes a promised land, a chosen people, and a blessing for all nations. It demonstrates God’s sovereignty in history and His grace in choosing one man to mediate blessing to the world. Practically, it encourages believers to honor God’s purposes and recognize that their treatment of others and alignment with divine truth have spiritual consequences, while the ultimate goal is the inclusion of all peoples in God’s redemptive plan.

 

[Revelation1v8]

The church (ekkelesia) was present in the OT as already shown over and over.

No one reads scripture and finds dispensationalism, no one, but it can be a constructed with an end goal in mind, by highlighting certain verses and downplaying the others, you know the usual approach of false systems.

Says the person who refuses to answer my question on whether or not you have the understanding that JESUS IS THE ALPHA & OMEGA. I don't believe you do.

 

[ScooterJackson]

The church (ekkelesia) was present in the OT as already shown over and over.

There was no New Testament gospel in the old testament before Jesus came in the flesh that was sent to the gentiles because the Jews rejected Jesus

All that went down in the New Covenant.

You did understand that there was an old covenant that Jesus came to take away so He could establish the New Covenant right?