Replacement theology? Yes or No.

[cv5]

Good scripture quoting, they are teaching us to return to Jesus, right now!

This is a WARNING to those who have packed their bags and DEPARTED from the faith.
Who is NOT watching? Why are they not watching? Why are they being held in contempt?
What is the trigger for the Second Coming?
What do they think of the restoration of the Kingdom to Israel?

Rev 3:3
Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Rev 3:9
Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

 

[Churchgoer]

This is a WARNING to those who have packed their bags and DEPARTED from the faith.
Who is NOT watching? Why are they not watching? Why are they being held in contempt?
What is the trigger for the Second Coming?
What do they think of the restoration of the Kingdom to Israel?

Rev 3:3
Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Rev 3:9
Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Very good scripture.

And your point?

 

[Churchgoer]

God's calling for every human is NOT at the same time. That's what Romans 11:25 tells you.

You're right, God's plan is in GOD's control and NOT ours.

What did Jesus tell Peter when Peter tried to prevent Jesus' death?

Matthew 16:21-23

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Exactly. Jesus did not command Peter to betray him.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

The only thing you keep forgetting is that Jesus is going to pour out His Holy Spirit in Jerusalem (Zechariah 13:1) upon His return and those who receive it will be heirs, but all of you act like that's never going to happen because you have a beef with the current Israel. That's the thing you have to shake and the reason you reject God's word on the matter.

you nailed it !!

 

[Churchgoer]

The only thing you keep forgetting is that Jesus is going to pour out His Holy Spirit in Jerusalem (Zechariah 13:1) upon His return and those who receive it will be heirs, but all of you act like that's never going to happen because you have a beef with the current Israel. That's the thing you have to shake and the reason you reject God's word on the matter.

Zechariah 13:1
this is great, so today we encourage secular jewrusalem to sin more?

Did you read the part "they will mourn, the one they pierced.....? "
Why?
They probably regret for all the sin they committed today ( many people are encouraging them to sin today. Hey yah yah... ) and their families got destroyed eternally because of today's sin.

Isn't that twisted?

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Isn't that twisted?

It is, but not for the reason you think it is. lol

 

[Revelation1v8]

Exactly. Jesus did not command Peter to betray him.

I think you missed the point of the message. Peter trying to keep Jesus from his pre-ordained death was a work of Satan because it was God's will for Jesus to die on the cross in order to forgive us our sins. Likewise, anyone who doesn't want God/Jesus to fulfill His written plan for Israel/Jews is thinking like men and not like God.

 

[cv5]

Very good scripture.

And your point?

My point is that you do not understand the point.

Nor do you understand that the מוֹעֲדֵי יְהוָה — moʿadei YHWH aka “the appointed times of Yahweh.”, the Seven Feasts of Moses, prove beyond the slightest shadow of a doubt the mechanism for the Second Coming and the Restoration of the Kingdom to Israel and is the backup to the prophecies of the Restoration so noted in the book of Hosea, Zechariah, Joel and many other prophets.

Go ahead. Ask your supercessionist and preterist buddies to chime in on this post.
It should be entertaining to observe the slapstick antics and desperate flailing.

 

[Revelation1v8]

Zechariah 13:1
this is great, so today we encourage secular jewrusalem to sin more?

Did you read the part "they will mourn, the one they pierced.....? "
Why?
They probably regret for all the sin they committed today ( many people are encouraging them to sin today. Hey yah yah... ) and their families got destroyed eternally because of today's sin.

Isn't that twisted?

Zechariah 13:1 is showing you that Jesus will open up a fountain to the House of David (pour out his Holy Spirit) in order to cleanse the people (who choose to receive it) while He cuts all of the idols out of the land. Telling secular Jerusalem to sin no more at this point will fall on deaf ears and blind eyes (see Romans 11:25) until every last Gentile that is meant to be saved is saved.

Yes, when Jesus returns, they will mourn and many of them will repent for having rejected Jesus.

The sin they committed today? Care to share? Did Hamas break some violations today in Gaza again and threaten to kidnap more people?

It's all twisted over there, and the Muslims will do everything in their power to twist the message of how or why they are getting attacked. Hamas and Hezbollah have already declared holy war on Israel over the last few years. They have absolutely no intention of quitting their fight. They are on a mission to take over Israel, if they think they can. That's the problem with Islamic Jihadists. They don't care if they die. They believe dying for their religious cause is the highest honor you can receive in the eyes of their god. It really takes some research and study on the religion and the different terrorist groups over there to understand why they do what they do.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Not sure how many times I have to repeat this but here we go again.....

The church (ekklesia) is also found in the OT times... God has always had a faithful, called out people, from the beginning.


Those who trusted in future coming Promise and those who trusted in The Promise when it arrived.

amen

“And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah: and Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: and all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: and Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭5:21-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Hebrews hall of faith in chapter 11 is wonderful to speak to what your saying

“And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: and others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: they were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; (of whom the world was not worthy they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:32-40‬ ‭


The men bieng used for examples are Old Testament faithful like abel and Enoch abraham Isaac and Jacob David and the prophets ect plus the many martyrs

 

[Pilgrimshope]

There was no New Testament gospel in the old testament before Jesus came in the flesh that was sent to the gentiles because the Jews rejected Jesus

All that went down in the New Covenant.

You did understand that there was an old covenant that Jesus came to take away so He could establish the New Covenant right?

you mean he came to fulfill it …..right ?

 

[Beekeeper]

This is a WARNING to those who have packed their bags and DEPARTED from the faith.
Who is NOT watching? Why are they not watching? Why are they being held in contempt?
What is the trigger for the Second Coming?
What do they think of the restoration of the Kingdom to Israel?

Rev 3:3
Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Rev 3:9
Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Watch WHAT?
The news?
Israel?
Did you think you had to get ready to start flapping your wings?

Nobody knows the time appointed for our death or for the second coming of Christ, and that is the reason given why we should watch our spiritual condition.

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

The only thing we have to do when Jesus comes is be judged.

 

[Churchgoer]

My point is that you do not understand the point.

Nor do you understand that the מוֹעֲדֵי יְהוָה — moʿadei YHWH aka “the appointed times of Yahweh.”, the Seven Feasts of Moses, prove beyond the slightest shadow of a doubt the mechanism for the Second Coming and the Restoration of the Kingdom to Israel and is the backup to the prophecies of the Restoration so noted in the book of Hosea, Zechariah, Joel and many other prophets.

Go ahead. Ask your supercessionist and preterist buddies to chime in on this post.
It should be entertaining to observe the slapstick antics and desperate flailing.

Obviously you don't have a point.

Or your point is to support secular Israel, that is equal to support the jew leaders 2000 years ago, fulfill the role to crucify Jesus.

You think Jesus need your help to go on the cross? Jesus need your help to 2nd coming?

So twisted beyond any Jesus teaching.

Choose this day who you want to serve, the almighty God Jesus, or the other side who is clearly mocking Jesus and doing all the murdering, pedophilia, sexual immorality.

 

[Beekeeper]

Yea but my point is even though you think there’s plenty of evidence . Someone arguing for after ad 70 would and do say the same thing . But neither side actually can prove when it was written


its sort of a point that both sides often use to support thier point or reject the other persons but in reality there is no way to empirically prove when it was written . It’s just a basic point bro I wasn’t saying it was written after I was saying there’s no way to prove when it was written by anyone

With the other books of the we first read the book to determine the date, so determining the date first to understand Revelation is kind of like putting the cart before the horse.

A few of date indicators within Revelation include John being requested to "measure" the temple and those that worship in it (11:1), indicating that the temple was not yet destroyed at the time of the vision, ie before 70AD.
The 2 witnesses in that chapter also prophesy in Jerusalem "a thousand two hundred and threescore days".
Jerusalem is identified in v.8, and in the passage appears to be populated and not yet destroyed.

Having identified the "great city" of 11:8 as Jerusalem, we already have the identity of the harlot in chapter 17.
We are told a great deal about this harlot, and it would be difficult to miss her identity.
The harlot seems alive and well as she sits on the beast (17:3), and the relationship between the woman and the beast has not yet become openly hostile.
This beast is identified as Rome in 17:9 by the seven mountains, but John seems to hope that mainly Christians will understand this identification, ie "the mind which hath wisdom".
In 17:16 John also predicts the Roman destruction of Jerusalem as future.

I have only covered these two chapters, because they are fresh in my mind from a recent conversation with @OMC, but the whole book is full if similar date indicators.

We could of course consider the possibility that Revelation was written after these events, explaining the past rather than predicting the future.
If we were discussing Moses writing Genesis that would be the case, but with Revelation I doubt it.
We are told that the book is about things that must shortly come to pass, not events of the past.

For people interested in exploring this view of Revelation I will also post a sermon by Chuck Baldwin.
At this point in time I find no reason not to endorse the things said in this sermon:

 

[Beekeeper]

Those approved by the Lord in the OT were not referred to as the Body of Christ

None of them kept the law of Moses either,
so who was it that redeemed them?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The only thing you keep forgetting is that Jesus is going to pour out His Holy Spirit in Jerusalem (Zechariah 13:1) upon His return and those who receive it will be heirs, but all of you act like that's never going to happen because you have a beef with the current Israel. That's the thing you have to shake and the reason you reject God's word on the matter.
“The only thing you keep forgetting is that Jesus is going to pour out His Holy Spirit in Jerusalem (Zechariah 13:1)”

naw what you are forgetting is god has already poured out his spirit in Jerusalem ….at pentocost as actually promised here

“And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:”
‭‭Joel‬ ‭2:28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, And your young men shall see visions, And your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:16-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Your interpretation of this verse referencing the spirit being. Poured out in Jerusalem

“In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.”
‭‭Zechariah‬ ‭13:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

sort of shows a lack of what the New Testament given first to israel says


“In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.”
‭‭Zechariah‬ ‭13:1‬

The blood of Jesus is the fountain that cleanses sin and makes clean ….it’s the only acceptable sacrifice for cleansing sin and there’s never going to be any other source. it’s not the pouring out of the spirit in Jerusalem…..that verse has nothing to do with that the verse that says “ in those days I’ll pour out my spirit …. That has to do with outing out his spirit and was fulfilled at pentocost in Jerusalem .

it’s not happening a second time. Neither his sacrifice for sin nor the outing out of his spirit it’s already purée out for anyone who accepts the gospel Jew or gentile individually by faith

“Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭4:21, 23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s sad that some want to demote Israel’s inheritance when Abraham and all the faithful knew much better

“These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:13, 16‬ ‭

look up like Abraham did when god showed him the stars and spoke of his seed don’t look down at the diety feet that never settled in the ond of Canaan there was a better promise made for Abraham’s seed

 

[Pilgrimshope]

With the other books of the we first read the book to determine the date, so determining the date first to understand Revelation is kind of like putting the cart before the horse.

A few of date indicators within Revelation include John being requested to "measure" the temple and those that worship in it (11:1), indicating that the temple was not yet destroyed at the time of the vision, ie before 70AD.
The 2 witnesses in that chapter also prophesy in Jerusalem "a thousand two hundred and threescore days".
Jerusalem is identified in v.8, and in the passage appears to be populated and not yet destroyed.

Having identified the "great city" of 11:8 as Jerusalem, we already have the identity of the harlot in chapter 17.
We are told a great deal about this harlot, and it would be difficult to miss her identity.
The harlot seems alive and well as she sits on the beast (17:3), and the relationship between the woman and the beast has not yet become openly hostile.
This beast is identified as Rome in 17:9 by the seven mountains, but John seems to hope that mainly Christians will understand this identification, ie "the mind which hath wisdom".
In 17:16 John also predicts the Roman destruction of Jerusalem as future.

I have only covered these two chapters, because they are fresh in my mind from a recent conversation with @OMC, but the whole book is full if similar date indicators.

We could of course consider the possibility that Revelation was written after these events, explaining the past rather than predicting the future.
If we were discussing Moses writing Genesis that would be the case, but with Revelation I doubt it.
We are told that the book is about things that must shortly come to pass, not events of the past.

For people interested in exploring this view of Revelation I will also post a sermon by Chuck Baldwin.
At this point in time I find no reason not to endorse the things said in this sermon:

“A few of date indicators within Revelation include John being requested to "measure" the temple and those that worship in it (11:1), indicating that the temple was not yet destroyed at the time of the vision, ie before 70AD.“

john is measuring the temple in heaven where he’s been taken to like Ezekiel was called to measure the inner parts of the heavenly temple when he sees the city John is taken into . This to me doesn’t indicate anything about a literal earthly temple not yet or already destroyed remember this about revelation
“After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭4:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This is different from any other perspective in the Bible. It’s why the imagery is different

“And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭11:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭15:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭15:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭16:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

These are heavenly perspectives regarding Old Testament prophecies not literal earthly references . Showing the interactions between heaven and earth “ let it be done on earth as it is in heaven “

“The LORD is in his holy temple, The LORD's throne is in heaven: His eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭11:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

John is seeing some of the same things other prophets saw but his perspective is different because he’s taken into heaven after Christ has ascended. In my own perspective this is near paramount to grasping what’s happening in johns apocalypse.

I could go on with another point but it’s gotten long sorry bout that

 

[Pilgrimshope]

None of them kept the law of Moses either,
so who was it that redeemed them?

Amen ….Ot perspective

“Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭53:1, 4-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

nt perspective

“who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭2:24-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The lords perspective

“But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: That the saying of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? And to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

Therefore they could not believe, because that Isaiah said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; That they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, And be converted, And I should heal them. These things said Isaiah, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:37-41‬ ‭KJV‬‬

they could believe in him before because gods word was telling them about what Jesus would do in thier future and we can believe in him because gods word tells us about what jesus did in our past. The actual event is somewhere in the center but faith extends both ways to believers who hear the word either before or after

“But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Whether a thousand years before or a thousand years after it’s still true and eternal

 

[Beekeeper]

“A few of date indicators within Revelation include John being requested to "measure" the temple and those that worship in it (11:1), indicating that the temple was not yet destroyed at the time of the vision, ie before 70AD.“

john is measuring the temple in heaven where he’s been taken to like Ezekiel was called to measure the inner parts of the heavenly temple when he sees the city John is taken into . This to me doesn’t indicate anything about a literal earthly temple not yet or already destroyed remember this about revelation
“After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭4:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This is different from any other perspective in the Bible. It’s why the imagery is different

“And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭11:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭15:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭15:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭16:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

These are heavenly perspectives regarding Old Testament prophecies not literal earthly references . Showing the interactions between heaven and earth “ let it be done on earth as it is in heaven “

“The LORD is in his holy temple, The LORD's throne is in heaven: His eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭11:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

John is seeing some of the same things other prophets saw but his perspective is different because he’s taken into heaven after Christ has ascended. In my own perspective this is near paramount to grasping what’s happening in johns apocalypse.

I could go on with another point but it’s gotten long sorry bout that

It is true that John was seeing this temple in a heavenly vision, as he also saw the beast and harlot.
This is the reason that many who attach earthly relevance to these things come to a range of conclusions other than the ones I have expressed, and probably also the reason why many turn to external sources to support their views on the date of writing.

Your references to the temple of God in heaven are also a fair point, yet the earthly temple had existed in better times when it represented the old covenant under the blessing and mercy of God.
It is only after the ministry and resurrection of Jesus that it came to represent a broken covenant to the pharisees and their followers.
It was none the less still "the temple of God" to the one who did not break the law.

Of course I am not saying that John left his vision and Patmos to measure the physical temple, but the vision is prophetic and there is much in 11:1 and 2 that corresponds with the events that have happened.

In v.1 john was also asked to measure "them that worship therein".
In the earthly context that I am considering that would of course be the Pharisees.
What does it mean to measure people?
Some say that it means here to mark them for destruction, and v.2 seems to support that.

The court outside is not to be "measured", because it is given to the Gentiles (Romans in my interpretation), "and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months" ie 3.5 years.

For me that sounds too much like what happened in the first century to ignore, but if there is more to understand from those 2 verses, or if you think I have applied them incorrectly I will respect what you say.

 

[Beekeeper]

Amen ….Ot perspective

“Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭53:1, 4-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

nt perspective

“who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭2:24-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The lords perspective

“But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: That the saying of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? And to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

Therefore they could not believe, because that Isaiah said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; That they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, And be converted, And I should heal them. These things said Isaiah, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:37-41‬ ‭KJV‬‬

they could believe in him before because gods word was telling them about what Jesus would do in thier future and we can believe in him because gods word tells us about what jesus did in our past. The actual event is somewhere in the center but faith extends both ways to believers who hear the word either before or after

“But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Whether a thousand years before or a thousand years after it’s still true and eternal

The dispensationalist answer to Isaiah 53:1 and 4-6 would be a very lengthy one.
They probably think Isaiah was talking about Gentiles in some future age.

Seriously though, Abram was a GENTILE when he received his salvation.
This thing has been going on for a long time.

Romans 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.