The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

[TheDivineWatermark]

A later form isn't "the same word". This is the same concept of a root word and later a new word created from that root.

Winer literally states, "
"d) Many words which had long been in use received a new form or pronunciation by which the older was in most cases superceded: as [...] apostasia (apostasis, Lob. p. 528), [...]"



[found on pgs 24-25]

-- https://books.google.com/books?id=i7kC8UOe-4cC&pg=PA24&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=true

The root word, the older word, means to change your mind and it can be about anything. The new word means to change your mind regarding a religious belief which is known as Apostasy.

Wow. Okay. Now it sounds like you are talking about the word "G3340 - metanoeō " - ""Repentance (metanoia, 'change of mind') involves [...]" - "μετανοέω metanoéō, met-an-o-eh'-o; from G3326 and G3539; to think differently or afterwards, i.e. reconsider (morally, feel compunction)"

Neither word has anything to do with moving physically. You don't even understand what it means to change one's "standing". It's not about literal standing.

I'm talking neither about "ONE'S standing" (as individuals) nor "literal standing [on one's two feet, upon the ground]".

What I am talking about is (more like this):

--presently, the Lord works IN AND THROUGH the entity known as "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" to show to everyone else God's address in this world (so to speak) [previously, He worked in and through Israel, to this same end / purpose, and in the FUTURE, will again...]; if someone wants to know who the True God is, "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" is where and by whom they can be / are pointed to Him--It is our [as a CORPORATE ENTITY] "standing" in this world (again, not literally "standing on two feet, upon the ground" that I'm talking about; but our position / placement by God, our function / purpose, etc);

--when God's [specific] purposes for "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" on this earth is completed (at a time FIXED by our Father), we will CORPORATELY EXPERIENCE "our Rapture" (an event aka "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" [IN THE AIR]... which concludes our "STANDING" in the world, we'll at that point receive our glorified bodies, etc...); This is pretty much the same sense that Hebrews 9:8-9a is using the word "STANDING," regarding "the first tabernacle [the one in the wilderness, per the furnishings named in v.4 of that context] yet HAVING A STANDING, which IS A PARABLE for the PRESENT TIME" (note that the text does NOT say: "while the first tabernacle STOOD [verb; or while the first tabernacle WAS STANDING - verb]". NO.
Not talking about its four walls in an upright position anchored to the ground (like, prior to [and contrasted with] being "razed [/destroyed / torn down]" or the like. NOT WHAT IT'S SPEAKING ABOUT... and not what I'm saying either )






It seems like some in this thread (not you ewq, usually) are not grasping the CORPORATE NATURE of "our Rapture / SNATCH / CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH... [IN THE AIR]" event (nor the purposes involved regarding it).

 

[cv5]

And it is always a religious departing as in Apostasy.

Here are 5 expert sources that prove the "departure" in 2 Thess 2:3 is the Apostasy:

Strong's definition G646

apostasia

ap-os-tas-ee'-ah

Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”) : - falling away, forsake.

Total KJV occurrences: 2


Thayer Definition:

G646 apostasia


1) a falling away, defection, apostasy

Part of Speech: noun feminine

A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: feminine of the same as G647

Citing in TDNT: 1:513, 88

Total KJV occurrences: 2





Abbott-Smith Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament

Apostasia

defection, apostasy, revolt; in late Gk. (MM, Exp., viii; Lft., Notes, 111; Cremer, 308) for cl. ?p?stas?? , freq. in sense of political revolt, in LXX (e.g. Joshua 22:22, 2 Chronicles 29:19, Jeremiah 2:19) and NT always of religious apostasy: Ac21:21, II Th 2:3.







Liddell and Scott:

A defection, revolt, v.l. in D.H.7.1, J.Vit.10, Plu.Galb.1; esp. in religious sense, rebellion against God, apostasy, LXX Jo.22.22, 2 Ep.Th.2.3 .





Winer's Grammar:

Apostasia, a falling away, defection, apostasy; in the Bible namely, from the true religion: Acts 21:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:3 ; ((Joshua 22:22; 2 Chronicles 29:19; 2 Chronicles 33:19); Jeremiah 2:19; Jeremiah 3629) 32 Complutensian; 1 Macc. 2:15). The earlier Greeks say Apostasis; see Lob. ad Phryn., p. 528; (Winer's Grammar, 24).

Nope. Dead wrong and completely unsupportable translation. Should be ignored and corrections need to be made.

 

[ewq1938]

Nope. Dead wrong and completely unsupportable translation. Should be ignored and corrections need to be made.

Sure, ignore the Greek expert sources in favor of made up nonsense definition. I'll choose the Greek experts everytime.

Liddell, Scott, Jones Ancient Greek Lexicon (LSJ):


apostasia
I a departure from one's religion, apostasy , Salv. Gub. Dei, 6, p. 128; Aug. c. Jul. 56.

apostasia apostasiae N F :: apostasy, departure from one's religion, repudiation of one's faith

 

[ewq1938]

Winer literally states, "
"d) Many words which had long been in use received a new form or pronunciation by which the older was in most cases superceded: as [...] apostasia (apostasis, Lob. p. 528), [...]"

That doesn't help your cause. Neither word means a physical departure. Always citing apostasis to distance away from apostasia is actually making the older supersede the newer which goes against what that quote says.

 

[cv5]

Sure, ignore the Greek expert sources in favor of made up nonsense definition. I'll choose the Greek experts everytime.

Liddell, Scott, Jones Ancient Greek Lexicon (LSJ):


apostasia
I a departure from one's religion, apostasy , Salv. Gub. Dei, 6, p. 128; Aug. c. Jul. 56.

apostasia apostasiae N F :: apostasy, departure from one's religion, repudiation of one's faith

Nope. Wrong. There is not the slightest nuance of "falling" or "faith" in that verse.
Such things only exist in your vivid imagination.

 

[ewq1938]

Nope. Wrong. There is not the slightest nuance of "falling" or "faith" in that verse.

You are wrong and know not the Greek language. Apostasia is Apostasy, and it is a departure or a fall from a true religion. Not one dictionary or concordance supports pre-tribs attempt to change the meaning of the word.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away (apostasia) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The word "falling away" is apostasia from where we get the words Apostate and Apostasy. Obviously it means a moral and spiritual religious "departure" not a physical departure.


Don't believe anything that says this event is the rapture. Here are 6 expert sources that prove the "departure" in 2 Thess 2:3 is the Apostasy:

Strong's definition:

G646 apostasia

ap-os-tas-ee'-ah

Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”) : - falling away, forsake.

Total KJV occurrences: 2


Thayer's Definition:

G646 apostasia

1) a falling away, defection, apostasy

Part of Speech: noun feminine

A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: feminine of the same as G647

Citing in TDNT: 1:513, 88

Total KJV occurrences: 2





Abbott-Smith Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament:

Apostasia

defection, apostasy, revolt; in late Gk. (MM, Exp., viii; Lft., Notes, 111; Cremer, 308) for cl. ?p?stas?? , freq. in sense of political revolt, in LXX (e.g. Joshua 22:22, 2 Chronicles 29:19, Jeremiah 2:19) and NT always of religious apostasy: Ac21:21, II Th 2:3.







Liddell and Scott:

A defection, revolt, v.l. in D.H.7.1, J.Vit.10, Plu.Galb.1; esp. in religious sense, rebellion against God, apostasy, LXX Jo.22.22, 2 Ep.Th.2.3 .


Liddell, Scott, Jones Ancient Greek Lexicon (LSJ):


apostasia
I a departure from one's religion, apostasy , Salv. Gub. Dei, 6, p. 128; Aug. c. Jul. 56.

apostasia apostasiae N F :: apostasy, departure from one's religion, repudiation of one's faith



Winer's Grammar:

Apostasia, a falling away, defection, apostasy; in the Bible namely, from the true religion: Acts 21:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:3 ; ((Joshua 22:22; 2 Chronicles 29:19; 2 Chronicles 33:19); Jeremiah 2:19; Jeremiah 36 29 ) 32 Complutensian; 1 Macc. 2:15). The earlier Greeks say Apostasis; see Lob. ad Phryn., p. 528; (Winer's Grammar, 24).

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

TheDivineWatermark said:
Winer literally states, "
"d) Many words which had long been in use received a new form or pronunciation by which the older was in most cases superceded: as [...] apostasia (apostasis, Lob. p. 528), [...]"

That doesn't help your cause. Neither word means a physical departure. Always citing apostasis to distance away from apostasia is actually making the older supersede the newer which goes against what that quote says.

"Supercede" (Winer's 1800s spelling) or "supersede" (ewq's 2022 spelling)... are these the same word and meaning? Or entirely distinct words with vastly differing meanings? Do we even know what Winer meant when he said "superceded"??




[quoting from Merriam-Webster]

Did you know?

Supersede ultimately derives from the Latin verb supersedēre, meaning "to sit on top of" (sedēre means "to sit"), "to be superior to," or "to refrain from," but it came to us through Scots Middle English, where it was rendered superceden and used in the sense of "to defer." It will come as no surprise that modern English speakers can be confused about how to spell this word—it sometimes turns up as supercede. In fact, some of the earliest records of the word in English show it spelled with a c. The s spelling has been the dominant choice since the 16th century, and while both spellings can be etymologically justified, supersede is now regarded as the "correct" version.

-- https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/supersede

[end quoting]




____________



Winer means: that we no longer spell THAT WORD the old way (in its "EARLIER FORM"), but now only spell it in its "LATER FORM" to which the old form / spelling completely "deferred" to the new spelling / form, i.e. the new spelling replaced the old spelling (but it's still the SAME WORD carrying the SAME MEANING... that is why he says "MANY WORDS... [such and such]"... because he's talking about [and LISTING OUT in those pages I linked] the numerous words that USED to be spelled a different way, and which are now spelled a new way... but they are the same word / meaning... otherwise there's no sense in saying a certain "word [or words]" received a new form, rather than saying something like, we threw an old word away... we came up with a completely new word that means nothing of the same thing that that other old word meant [not "FORM" but new WORD altogether], which isn't actually what he's saying )

 

[ewq1938]

(but it's still the SAME WORD carrying the SAME MEANING...

It's not the same word, nor do they have the same definition. Anyone reading and who checks can see that you are wrong. apostasia can only mean one thing according to all bible related dictionaries, Apostasy. Those of the Apostasy are Apostates from the Christian religion.

greeklexicon.org (Greek-English lexicon):


G646 apostasia

Part(s) of speech: Noun, Feminine

Definition: defection, apostasy, revolt.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Regarding "apostasia":

[...] ((Joshua 22:22; 2 Chronicles 29:19; 2 Chronicles 33:19); Jeremiah 2:19; Jeremiah 36 29 ) 32 Complutensian; 1 Macc. 2:15). The earlier Greeks say Apostasis; see Lob. ad Phryn., p. 528; (Winer's Grammar, 24).

What in the world could Winer mean by saying (under the entry "apostasia"), "The earlier Greeks SAY APOSTASIS"?? What, "just for fun, they go around saying the word 'APOSTASIS'"... "APOSTASIS"... "APOSTASIS" "lalalala... APOSTASIS [we mean NOTHING by it, we just like to SAY IT!!]"

(really? wow.... No. )

 

[cv5]

It's not the same word, nor do they have the same definition. Anyone reading and who checks can see that you are wrong. apostasia can only mean one thing according to all bible related dictionaries, Apostasy. Those of the Apostasy are Apostates from the Christian religion.

greeklexicon.org (Greek-English lexicon):


G646 apostasia

Part(s) of speech: Noun, Feminine

Definition: defection, apostasy, revolt.

No, no and no....

 

[cv5]

You are wrong and know not the Greek language. Apostasia is Apostasy, and it is a departure or a fall from a true religion. Not one dictionary or concordance supports pre-tribs attempt to change the meaning of the word.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away (apostasia) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The word "falling away" is apostasia from where we get the words Apostate and Apostasy. Obviously it means a moral and spiritual religious "departure" not a physical departure.


Don't believe anything that says this event is the rapture. Here are 6 expert sources that prove the "departure" in 2 Thess 2:3 is the Apostasy:

Strong's definition:

G646 apostasia

ap-os-tas-ee'-ah

Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”) : - falling away, forsake.

Total KJV occurrences: 2


Thayer's Definition:

G646 apostasia

1) a falling away, defection, apostasy

Part of Speech: noun feminine

A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: feminine of the same as G647

Citing in TDNT: 1:513, 88

Total KJV occurrences: 2





Abbott-Smith Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament:

Apostasia

defection, apostasy, revolt; in late Gk. (MM, Exp., viii; Lft., Notes, 111; Cremer, 308) for cl. ?p?stas?? , freq. in sense of political revolt, in LXX (e.g. Joshua 22:22, 2 Chronicles 29:19, Jeremiah 2:19) and NT always of religious apostasy: Ac21:21, II Th 2:3.







Liddell and Scott:

A defection, revolt, v.l. in D.H.7.1, J.Vit.10, Plu.Galb.1; esp. in religious sense, rebellion against God, apostasy, LXX Jo.22.22, 2 Ep.Th.2.3 .


Liddell, Scott, Jones Ancient Greek Lexicon (LSJ):


apostasia
I a departure from one's religion, apostasy , Salv. Gub. Dei, 6, p. 128; Aug. c. Jul. 56.

apostasia apostasiae N F :: apostasy, departure from one's religion, repudiation of one's faith



Winer's Grammar:

Apostasia, a falling away, defection, apostasy; in the Bible namely, from the true religion: Acts 21:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:3 ; ((Joshua 22:22; 2 Chronicles 29:19; 2 Chronicles 33:19); Jeremiah 2:19; Jeremiah 36 29 ) 32 Complutensian; 1 Macc. 2:15). The earlier Greeks say Apostasis; see Lob. ad Phryn., p. 528; (Winer's Grammar, 24).

Nope. I am definitely correct in this matter. So is TDW....

 

[ewq1938]

Regarding "apostasia":



What in the world could Winer mean by saying (under the entry "apostasia"), "The earlier Greeks SAY APOSTASIS"??

There's nothing complicated about it. Before apostasia was created, there was no specific word for Apostasy. The closest they had was apostasis which could mean a vast range of things that had to do with a change of position/mind etc. Eventually a new word was created with a specific meaning of falling away/departure from the truth. From that word a later word was also created, Apostasy.

That's why Winer and every Greek dictionary all agree that apostasia does mean departure from the truth and various other similar things that all equal to Apostasy.

Pre-tribs answer to this is to ignore all of those sources or claim they are "fibbing" What a joke.

 

[ewq1938]

Nope. I am definitely correct in this matter. So is TDW....

No you both are wrong. I've proven that many times. You live in a fantasy world where you think Greek dictionaries are "fibbing". LOL

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

So that would be a yes to YOU TEACHING AS GODS TRUTH

Don't be deceived by any man, the gathering unto the Lord will not happen until after the gathering unto the Lord.

Someone is clearly not following along in class.

[Verse 3] Don't be deceived by any man, the gathering unto the Lord [a] THE DAY OF THE LORD [EARTHLY TIME PERIOD unfolding] will not happen [WILL NOT BE PRESENT] until after [if not shall have come] the gathering unto the Lord [aka "THE DEPARTURE FIRST" / aka "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" / aka our "SNATCH / CAUGHT UP / HARPAZO"... "TO the meeting [noun] OF THE LORD IN THE AIR]" (etc)

See the two different-colored items?

It's the RED item which was the Subject of the "false claimants' msg" Paul is informing about back IN VERSE 2, that Paul is starting off v.3a pointing back to...

(thus showing the SEQUENCE between that and the BLUE ITEM THAT MUST COME *FIRST* before the OTHER ITEM can THEN *BE PRESENT* to unfold upon the earth in actuality / the claim of v.2 be actually TRUE... It wasn't.)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

G646 apostasia

Part(s) of speech: Noun, Feminine

Definition: defection, apostasy, revolt.

Would you agree that "A POLITICAL *REVOLT*" is not the same thing as (Acts 21:21) "a departure FROM MOSES"??



Acts 21:21 -

Literal Standard Version
and they are instructed concerning you, that you teach departure from Moses to all Jews among the nations, saying not to circumcise the children, nor to walk after the customs;

 

[ewq1938]

Someone is clearly not following along in class.





See the two different-colored items?

It's the RED item which was the Subject of the "false claimants' msg" Paul is informing about back IN VERSE 2, that Paul is starting off v.3a pointing back to...

(thus showing the SEQUENCE between that and the BLUE ITEM THAT MUST COME *FIRST* before the OTHER ITEM can THEN *BE PRESENT* to unfold upon the earth in actuality / the claim of v.2 be actually TRUE... It wasn't.)

Of course the blue "item" comes first but it's the Apostasy. Before the rapture can happen, the Apostasy and the man of sin must happen. That alone proves pre-trib wrong.

 

[ewq1938]

Would you agree that "A POLITICAL *REVOLT*" is not the same thing as (Acts 21:21) "a departure FROM MOSES"??

A religious revolt is the same as religious departure which is the same thing as Apostasy. "and NT always of religious apostasy: Ac21:21, II Th 2:3."

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Before the rapture can happen

Here's what you're missing ^ ... the text doesn't state THAT ^ ... instead, it is conveying before the DOTL can BE PRESENT [such and such evidences must be in play]

It wasn't.

(because they weren't...)





CLUE:

"the DOTL" is ENTIRELY EARTHLY-LOCATED.

"our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" IS NOT.




[nearly everyone commenting in this thread is BLURRING THESE TWO DISTINCT ITEMS into ONE... They AREN'T!]

 

[ewq1938]

Here's what you're missing ^ ... the text doesn't state THAT ^ ...

Yes it does. It uses "gather" as a rapture reference.

"the DOTL" is ENTIRELY EARTHLY-LOCATED.

"our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" IS NOT.

Christ comes to the clouds of the Earth, not mars or anywhere else.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Yes it does. It uses "gather" as a rapture reference.

You are ignoring what the false claimants were purporting... it had NOTHING TO DO WITH "gather" or "rapture".

Paul starts out verse 3a by referencing "that day" (the EARTHLY TIME PERIOD they said "IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE" v.2) and saying (of that), [v.3b] "NOPE! not till TWO EVIDENCES are 'in play,'" ... and NEITHER WERE!