The grace of God and the Law

[rogerg]

Well that'sinteresting but you have had to do a mashup of scriptures to come to your conclusion. I prefer to stick to the op but thanks for your response. There will be a new earth and heavens, but I am referring to Jesus doing the work of His Father on this earth a few thousand yrs ago. I am not going to debate it but again, thanks for the trouble of responding.

I'm not trying to brush you off, but I just would really like to get back to my op. Thanks

I was trying to answer your reply that asked for further explanation:

" do not think scripture supports that conclusion, but feel free to explain why you think that."

But that's okay - besides which world is which, I pretty much agree with your basic point.

 

[pinebeach]

Understanding grace from the position of already having accepted Christ may sometimes create a little forgetfullness regarding where we started from. Sometimes people start thinking they need to 'do' things to be or stay saved. Neither of those concepts
reflect the grace of God and scripture addresses that way of thinking very clearly.

Before a person is saved, they are without the grace of God. The Bible reflects the fact we were born in sin. Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. Psalms 51:5 Notonly that, but we were actually enemies of God. That is, against Him; in rebellion to Him.

For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. Romans 5:10

We deserved a death sentence from God because of these things. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

This is where God revealed His grace, His forgiveness through the sacrifice of His Son. The righteousness we receive is entirely given through our faith in Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, Ephesians 2:80

2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our fleshand following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4;But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Ephesians 2

So we are saved by grace; a gift and nothing we earn or keep through our efforts. Grace is not on loan to us; we do not pay interest on it by doing works. Works did not get us forgiven and works do not keep us forgiven. This is perhaps the most important concept to grasp when it comes to the grace of God. I can already hear all the objections but we have to believe what scripture teaches us

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Well always something new to learn it seems. I've never heard that teaching about grace. Sounds wonky and kind of reverse thinking exegesis.

Appreciate your post and the fact you know the truth about the grace of God.

so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it. Isaiah 55:11”

Amen …. That’s always been true

“And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Same principle when he speaks to a person like this including the person in the word he’s spoken

“And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt.

And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days:”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭10:


When God speaks its going to happen even if it’s through an apostle like Paul

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:

Our solution is in the doctrine

“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭1:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Often we fall into the “ grace means we never have to do anything God says we need to do “ or grace means I’m never going to be judged for what I do good and bad “ but it would require us to basically ignore half of the New Testament

Gods grace found in the gospel actually teaches believers to repent and live upright lives while we await the lords coming and kingdom . This according to Paul

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Im old so it’s reletively new to me over the past thirty five years maybe . But this message disappeared from “ Paul’s doctrine “ that gets spoken about anyways in all the new modern grace alone books

“This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭3:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Now again this isn’t an argument for “ you must be perfect , or you must work your way into heaven “ the message to Christian’s to repent of sin and do Gods Will being good and not evil towards thier fellow man , is simple a message of Gods true grace. That is found in the doctrine.

Amy probably clumsy point was simply to watch out for grace messages that require one to reject Jesus words in the gospel

He was preaching this
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the the same folks he was preaching this to

“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Mercy is reciprocal. It’s given by God to all humanity and then it’s expected of them come judgement ….As learned in the parable of the i forgiving debtor


a man is totally forgiven of all his great debt but then he goes out and refuses to forgive another man a little he’s owed and is harsh has him thrown in prison until he can pay the whole debt …..when he does this his lord who had forgiven him his great debt , calls him back before him and reinstates the debt. Fully which was too great for him to pay he’s then assigned a place of torment

NOT BECAUSE HE OWED THE DEBT BUT BECAUSE HE DID NOT GOVE MERCY AND GORFIVE THE OTHER MANS DEBT TO HIM !!!!!

thats what many don’t understand about the gospel . God onows we aren’t perfect we all already failed that test . Now he’s taught us the things Jesus taught like this

“Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:36-38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

remember how sinners reacted to Jesus preaching his sermons ?

“Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭15:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s because his message was a new message that was offering sinners , destined for hell ……..the free and true hope of eternal life , but it made self righteousness useless….

 

[pinebeach]

Amen …. That’s always been true

“And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Same principle when he speaks to a person like this including the person in the word he’s spoken

“And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt.

And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days:”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭10:


When God speaks its going to happen even if it’s through an apostle like Paul

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:

Our solution is in the doctrine

“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭1:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Often we fall into the “ grace means we never have to do anything God says we need to do “ or grace means I’m never going to be judged for what I do good and bad “ but it would require us to basically ignore half of the New Testament

Gods grace found in the gospel actually teaches believers to repent and live upright lives while we await the lords coming and kingdom . This according to Paul

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Im old so it’s reletively new to me over the past thirty five years maybe . But this message disappeared from “ Paul’s doctrine “ that gets spoken about anyways in all the new modern grace alone books

“This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭3:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Now again this isn’t an argument for “ you must be perfect , or you must work your way into heaven “ the message to Christian’s to repent of sin and do Gods Will being good and not evil towards thier fellow man , is simple a message of Gods true grace. That is found in the doctrine.

Amy probably clumsy point was simply to watch out for grace messages that require one to reject Jesus words in the gospel

He was preaching this
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the the same folks he was preaching this to

“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Mercy is reciprocal. It’s given by God to all humanity and then it’s expected of them come judgement ….As learned in the parable of the i forgiving debtor


a man is totally forgiven of all his great debt but then he goes out and refuses to forgive another man a little he’s owed and is harsh has him thrown in prison until he can pay the whole debt …..when he does this his lord who had forgiven him his great debt , calls him back before him and reinstates the debt. Fully which was too great for him to pay he’s then assigned a place of torment

NOT BECAUSE HE OWED THE DEBT BUT BECAUSE HE DID NOT GOVE MERCY AND GORFIVE THE OTHER MANS DEBT TO HIM !!!!!

thats what many don’t understand about the gospel . God onows we aren’t perfect we all already failed that test . Now he’s taught us the things Jesus taught like this

“Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:36-38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

remember how sinners reacted to Jesus preaching his sermons ?

“Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭15:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s because his message was a new message that was offering sinners , destined for hell ……..the free and true hope of eternal life , but it made self righteousness useless….

This is just plain rude. I'm not surprised though. Apparently you think you are more important than learning about the grace of God. If I could delete your post I would but I am going to just ignore your apparent consideration of yourself and your bad teaching as typical of what you do

 

[pinebeach]

I was trying to answer your reply that asked for further explanation:

" do not think scripture supports that conclusion, but feel free to explain why you think that."

But that's okay - besides which world is which, I pretty much agree with your basic point.

I know you were. I appreciate all the time you took. As you can see, I'm trying hard to just get back to the op...God's grace. Thanks

 

[pinebeach]

sigh.....Anyone want to talk about the actual op?

Understanding grace from the position of already having accepted Christ may sometimes create a little forgetfullness regarding where we started from. Sometimes people start thinking they need to 'do' things to be or stay saved. Neither of those concepts
reflect the grace of God and scripture addresses that way of thinking very clearly.

Before a person is saved, they are without the grace of God. The Bible reflects the fact we were born in sin. Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. Psalms 51:5 Notonly that, but we were actually enemies of God. That is, against Him; in rebellion to Him.

For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. Romans 5:10

We deserved a death sentence from God because of these things. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

This is where God revealed His grace, His forgiveness through the sacrifice of His Son. The righteousness we receive is entirely given through our faith in Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, Ephesians 2:80

2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our fleshand following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4;But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Ephesians 2

So we are saved by grace; a gift and nothing we earn or keep through our efforts. Grace is not on loan to us; we do not pay interest on it by doing works. Works did not get us forgiven and works do not keep us forgiven. This is perhaps the most important concept to grasp when it comes to the grace of God. I can already hear all the objections but we have to believe what scripture teaches us

 

[studentoftheword]

The Law, Old Testament, says do and live while the grace of God says live in Christ and then do.

I think we need to understand that Grace is not a thing that God gives us apart from Himself -----Grace is God's Nature ---Grace is a person ---Jesus who is God came Full of Grace ----God who is full of Grace gives us Himself by us having a personal relationship with Him -----and through God who is full of Grace we are shown undeserved unmerited Favor -----

Grace is not a substance that God stockpiles and then dished out to us ------He Graces us with Himself --that is why Grace is very powerful ----

In the Old Testament ----God didn't give Israel grace ----He Himself was their Grace many times -----He got them out of Bondage ===opened the Sea for their escape ---provided them a path to the promised land --provided food in the wilderness ---God full of Grace never abandoned them even though they mocked Him and complained ---built an idol to worship -----He continually Graced them with His Presents ----

From Google ---
Does the Bible say Jesus is grace?

God's grace is a person. Jesus Christ is God's grace personified.


AI
What Grace Is

A Person: , Grace is not a "thing" but a person, Jesus Christ, who embodies God’s love.

Empowering Power: It provides strength to overcome sin, live righteously, and fulfill God's purpose.

Justification: It allows sinners to be declared righteous through faith alone, not by works.

God's Initiative: Grace is God acting on behalf of humanity through Christ before repentance or improvement.
The Gospel Coalition +4

What Grace Is Not

• A License to Sin: Grace is not permission to live in sinful disobedience or immoral living.
• Lowered Standards: Grace does not mean God disregards holiness, but rather that Jesus met God's standards on behalf of humanity.
• Cheap Grace: Grace is not something that requires nothing of the recipient, as it is a gift that calls for a changed life, notes The Gospel Coalition.
• Earned Merit: If deserved, it is wages or debt, not grace.
• Mere Forgiveness: Grace includes forgiveness, but it also includes the power for transformation.
  The Gospel Coalition +4

Key Distinctions

• Grace vs. Mercy: As discussed in this Desiring God Interview, mercy is not getting the punishment one deserves, while grace is getting the blessing one does not deserve.
• Grace vs. Works: Grace is "no longer grace if it is earned".

The Gospel Coalition
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org › Articles

Grace Is Not a Thing​

 

[pinebeach]

I think we need to understand that Grace is not a thing that God gives us apart from Himself -----Grace is God's Nature ---Grace is a person ---Jesus who is God came Full of Grace ----God who is full of Grace gives us Himself by us having a personal relationship with Him -----and through God who is full of Grace we are shown undeserved unmerited Favor -----

Grace is not a substance that God stockpiles and then dished out to us ------He Graces us with Himself --that is why Grace is very powerful ----

In the Old Testament ----God didn't give Israel grace ----He Himself was their Grace many times -----He got them out of Bondage ===opened the Sea for their escape ---provided them a path to the promised land --provided food in the wilderness ---God full of Grace never abandoned them even though they mocked Him and complained ---built an idol to worship -----He continually Graced them with His Presents ----

From Google ---
Does the Bible say Jesus is grace?

God's grace is a person. Jesus Christ is God's grace personified.


AI
What Grace Is

A Person: , Grace is not a "thing" but a person, Jesus Christ, who embodies God’s love.

Empowering Power: It provides strength to overcome sin, live righteously, and fulfill God's purpose.

Justification: It allows sinners to be declared righteous through faith alone, not by works.

God's Initiative: Grace is God acting on behalf of humanity through Christ before repentance or improvement.
The Gospel Coalition +4

What Grace Is Not

• A License to Sin: Grace is not permission to live in sinful disobedience or immoral living.
• Lowered Standards: Grace does not mean God disregards holiness, but rather that Jesus met God's standards on behalf of humanity.
• Cheap Grace: Grace is not something that requires nothing of the recipient, as it is a gift that calls for a changed life, notes The Gospel Coalition.
• Earned Merit: If deserved, it is wages or debt, not grace.
• Mere Forgiveness: Grace includes forgiveness, but it also includes the power for transformation.
  The Gospel Coalition +4

Key Distinctions

• Grace vs. Mercy: As discussed in this Desiring God Interview, mercy is not getting the punishment one deserves, while grace is getting the blessing one does not deserve.
• Grace vs. Works: Grace is "no longer grace if it is earned".

The Gospel Coalition
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org › Articles

Grace Is Not a Thing​

I would basically agree. I do not see grace, the grace of God, apart from God Himself. As you state, there are many aspects of this grace.

My main focus for the purpose of this thread is God's grace in light of the law and there are some great points made in your post. Its helpful to also list 'what grace is not.' I think the idea of holding grace (always referring to God's grace when I say grace) as apart from ourselves is or should be basic to understanding but I don't think it's uncommon for people to add to it at times or abuse it at others.

Both reasons I wanted to have (hopefully) a good biblical discussion on it. Thanks

 

[rogerg]

This is where God revealed His grace, His forgiveness through the sacrifice of His Son. The righteousness we receive is entirely given through our faith in Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, Ephesians 2:80

I understand that differently than you do: if one's faith is a prerequisite to the receiving of grace (as I understood you to say above), then that makes the requirement for faith into a law for salvation. I do not believe that law in any form can bring anyone to a grace that leads to salvation, and as a law, it is actually and directly opposed to grace. Therefore, grace and salvation must precede faith with faith as byproduct and gift. The only way a requirement to have faith does not turn into a law for man to satisfy, is when that law is satisfied by God's work not man's - when faith is given and received solely as a free gift.

[Rom 3:27 KJV] 27 Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

 

[markss]

sigh.....Anyone want to talk about the actual op?

Understanding grace from the position of already having accepted Christ may sometimes create a little forgetfullness regarding where we started from. Sometimes people start thinking they need to 'do' things to be or stay saved. Neither of those concepts
reflect the grace of God and scripture addresses that way of thinking very clearly.

For me the heart of the matter is being reconciled to God, and that in God's grace He removed the sin that separates man from God. Having been reconciled to God, His grace completes it's purpose, that as a dispensation of His grace He makes us His very children, born of Him.

Much love!

 

[GWH]

We live in a magical planet. We reside in a part of the universe that has the fundamentals of supporting life on it. The Genesis creation and the birth of life.

You can say that again!

 

[pinebeach]

I understand that differently than you do: if one's faith is a prerequisite to the receiving of grace (as I understood you to say above), then that makes the requirement for faith into a law for salvation. I do not believe that law in any form can bring anyone to a grace that leads to salvation, and as a law, it is actually and directly opposed to grace. Therefore, grace and salvation must precede faith with faith as byproduct and gift. The only way a requirement to have faith does not turn into a law for man to satisfy, is when that law is satisfied by God's work not man's - when faith is given and received solely as a free gift.

[Rom 3:27 KJV] 27 Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

I think you do not understand what I posted. At least it seems to be the case, because I said nothing whatsoever about law bringing anyone to God's grace.

I posted alot of scripture. Maybe reference my post 26

 

[pinebeach]

For me the heart of the matter is being reconciled to God, and that in God's grace He removed the sin that separates man from God. Having been reconciled to God, His grace completes it's purpose, that as a dispensation of His grace He makes us His very children, born of Him.

Much love!

Right. I went into detail on that in my post 26

My concern is those who try to say that if you simply 'believe' that means you also think you are free to sin. Nothing of the sort at all yet people continue along those lines as you prob experienced in the commandments thread.

I don't know why it seems so hard for some to grasp that faith should be in God and not our own efforts and instead conclude that means believers who are of that understanding, continue to sin. I don't think it's my job to convince someone of what scripture plainly states. A person can only present scripture; it's the work of the Holy Spirit to do that.

 

[BetterCallPsalms]

I think we need to understand that Grace is not a thing that God gives us apart from Himself -----Grace is God's Nature ---Grace is a person ---Jesus who is God came Full of Grace ----God who is full of Grace gives us Himself by us having a personal relationship with Him -----and through God who is full of Grace we are shown undeserved unmerited Favor -----

Grace is not a substance that God stockpiles and then dished out to us ------He Graces us with Himself --that is why Grace is very powerful ----

In the Old Testament ----God didn't give Israel grace ----He Himself was their Grace many times -----He got them out of Bondage ===opened the Sea for their escape ---provided them a path to the promised land --provided food in the wilderness ---God full of Grace never abandoned them even though they mocked Him and complained ---built an idol to worship -----He continually Graced them with His Presents ----

From Google ---
Does the Bible say Jesus is grace?

God's grace is a person. Jesus Christ is God's grace personified.


AI
What Grace Is

A Person: , Grace is not a "thing" but a person, Jesus Christ, who embodies God’s love.

Empowering Power: It provides strength to overcome sin, live righteously, and fulfill God's purpose.

Justification: It allows sinners to be declared righteous through faith alone, not by works.

God's Initiative: Grace is God acting on behalf of humanity through Christ before repentance or improvement.
The Gospel Coalition +4

What Grace Is Not

• A License to Sin: Grace is not permission to live in sinful disobedience or immoral living.
• Lowered Standards: Grace does not mean God disregards holiness, but rather that Jesus met God's standards on behalf of humanity.
• Cheap Grace: Grace is not something that requires nothing of the recipient, as it is a gift that calls for a changed life, notes The Gospel Coalition.
• Earned Merit: If deserved, it is wages or debt, not grace.
• Mere Forgiveness: Grace includes forgiveness, but it also includes the power for transformation.
  The Gospel Coalition +4

Key Distinctions

• Grace vs. Mercy: As discussed in this Desiring God Interview, mercy is not getting the punishment one deserves, while grace is getting the blessing one does not deserve.
• Grace vs. Works: Grace is "no longer grace if it is earned".

The Gospel Coalition
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org › Articles

Grace Is Not a Thing​

Christ is beyond a person, as he stated, he was the I AM before he took on flesh to deliver all who believed in him from sin, both those in hades awaiting salvation in Abraham's bosom, present sin, as he forgave many before the cross, and after the cross, all the way to those who call on the Lord during the day of his wrath are able to be forgiven and receive eternal life. So to see Christ as a man when he is God is looking at it all wrong.

 

[studentoftheword]

The Law, Old Testament, says do and live while the grace of God says live in Christ and then do.

So you have here the Law says do and live -- ---not sure of your meaning for life here ---but it is not eternal life ----it is a Blessed life =====there is a difference in the 2 ----and this Blessed life was only if the Jews obeyed all 613 laws ----

God gave the Israelite's the the ceremonial laws—including dietary restrictions, sacrifices, and purification rituals -----to set them apart as a holy nation, distinguish them from surrounding cultures, and illustrate their need for spiritual cleansing.

Now the Mosaic Moral Law the 10 Commandments were given because the Israelite's themselves said they were willing to obey the rules God set before them -----

• Exodus 19:8: Following Moses presenting the covenant terms, the people responded together, "All that the LORD has spoken we will do".

No Israelite could keep all the laws ----if you failed to obey one law --then you failed to obey all the laws -----

So God brought in the -----the Blessings and Curses ----

Blessed life ---abundant-- prosperous ---healthy Life ---- for obedience on keeping all the laws =

He brought in the Cursed life --Failure --sickness -disease -for disobedience in keeping the laws -----

so the Cursed life --was in place because the Jews couldn't keep the laws so the Curse was the order of the day for the Jewish Nation ----

So when God said
Deuteronomy 30:19 “I have set before you life and death... therefore choose life”

God is not speaking of Eternal life at that point -Folks ----He is speaking here of the Blessed life not eternal life ------just so people know ------

What Grace does to the law

Then Grace comes -----who is Jesus ----Fulfills All 613 laws -----and by willingly sacrificing Himself ---shedding His Blood --- being nailed to the Cross -----taking with Him all sin ------dies and is resurrected -bringing the Blessed life to the forefront and now eternal life is at hand ----

Grace Has now eliminated the Curse being in place all the time ---which was there because of the laws that the Israelite's were under and couldn't keep -----so now the Blessing are in place and are obtainable for the Jewish Nation through receiving Jesus as Lord and Saviour by and through His Faith -----

Grace Says -------Keeping The law is no longer needed for the Jewish Nation to obey to obtain the Blessings of God ------Grace who is Jesus broke the yoke and burden of keeping the law for the Jewish Nation ----but they refused to accept Jesus as their Messiah ---and so the Gentiles now had the opportunity to accept Grace and have the Blessings in this life and eternal life just like the Israelite's have -----

 

[pinebeach]

So you have here the Law says do and live -- ---not sure of your meaning for life here ---but it is not eternal life ----it is a Blessed life =====there is a difference in the 2 ----and this Blessed life was only if the Jews obeyed all 613 laws ----

God gave the Israelite's the the ceremonial laws—including dietary restrictions, sacrifices, and purification rituals -----to set them apart as a holy nation, distinguish them from surrounding cultures, and illustrate their need for spiritual cleansing.

Obey the commandments = life. People in the camp died when they disobeyed...such as the fellow out getting firewood (I think it was firewood) on the Sabbath. He paid for that trangression with his life. Of course its not eternal life and I did not say it was. I take for granted (silly me I know) folks already know that...but I forget many just disregard the OT' Obviously you are not

No Israelite could keep all the laws ----if you failed to obey one law --then you failed to obey all the laws -----

So God brought in the -----the Blessings and Curses ----

Blessed life ---abundant-- prosperous ---healthy Life ---- for obedience on keeping all the laws =

He brought in the Cursed life --Failure --sickness -disease -for disobedience in keeping the laws -----

so the Cursed life --was in place because the Jews couldn't keep the laws so the Curse was the order of the day for the Jewish Nation ----

So when God said
Deuteronomy 30:19 “I have set before you life and death... therefore choose life”

God is not speaking of Eternal life at that point -Folks ----He is speaking here of the Blessed life not eternal life ------just so people know -

Right. The law was a shadow of what was to come (salvation through Christ)

I believe believers should study and acquaint themselves with the Old Testament in order to better understand the New. We do not have eternal life until Jesus rises from the dead.

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

There are many verses in the NT that describe eternal life in Jesus. The blood of animals never forgave sin but the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.

 

[Deuteronomy]

For your assessment to be correct and Christ actually be Savior of the world as the verse tells us He is, and His mission be a success, whichever world that He is the Savior of, it, and all that is in it, must become saved.

Hello Rogerg, I have a few thoughts about this, but first, here's v16 with a bit of surrounding context.

John 3​

14 “As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; ​

15 so that ~whosoever believes~ will in Him have eternal life. ​

16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that ~whoever believes~ in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. ​

17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.” ​

First of all, the Gospels were written from a Jewish POV, and when Jews spoke of things like "the world", or "all men", etc., in the Bible, what they often meant by that was, "not just the Jews"! IOW, "the world" meant, "us ~AND~ them", "Jews ~AND~ Greeks", the "Jewish Nation ~AND~ the Gentile Nations", because "us AND them" is how they viewed the world.

"The world/all men" can certainly refer to everyone in it, "all people w/o exception", that is, but those phrases can also mean "people of all kinds from every corner of the planet" or "men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation" .. Revelation 5:9, IOW, ~all w/o distinction~, rather than, ~all w/o exception~.

Lastly, the qualifying phrase, "whosoever believes" tells us who will be saved and why they will be saved, and "the world", then, tells us that God did not limit salvation to the Jews/Israel alone, but to "whosoever believes" instead, wherever they come from/whoever they are, whether they are Jewish, or not

That's how I understand it all anyway.

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy
p.s. - "have eternal life" (v16) is in the Greek present tense, IOW, "eternal life" is something that true believers come into an ongoing possession of while we are still living here, in this world, which I believe helps us understand that "the world", spoken of in the verses above, refers the "this" world (in the here and now), rather than to the world/new earth in the age to come. As the Lord Jesus also told us,

John 5​

24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, ~has~ eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.​

.

 

[rogerg]

Hello Rogerg, I have a few thoughts about this, but first, here's v16 with a bit of surrounding context.

John 3 14 “As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that ~whosoever believes~ will in Him have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that ~whoever believes~ in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.”

Hi Deuteronomy, thanks for your reply. I agree that whosoever truly believes has eternal life. However, the more important question
is who will believe and why will they believe? My understanding of scripture is that true belief is a gift given from God to those
whom He chose to salvation with faith/belief as a result, not a cause. Please observe in 2 Pe 1:1 following, that true faith was obtained from Jesus, not caused nor initiated by the "with us(s)" or the "to them(s)" of the verse; in other words, it was a free gift that was given from Jesus's righteousness. It can also be seen that since it was obtained by the "to them(s)" and "with us(s)", that it was not given to everyone, not even to those who think they, of their efforts, have produced it, but only to those for whom God intended it be given.

[2Pe 1:1 KJV] 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
[Phl 1:29 KJV] 29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

First of all, the Gospels were written from a Jewish POV, and when Jews spoke of things like "the world", or "all men", etc., in the Bible, what they often meant by that was, "not just the Jews"! IOW, "the world" meant, "us ~AND~ them", "Jews ~AND~ Greeks", the "Jewish Nation ~AND~ the Gentile Nations", because "us AND them" is how they viewed the world.

I do not think Scripture in general or the gospels in particular were written to any point of view besides God's. I believe the writers
wrote exactly what God wanted them to write exactly how He wanted it written, of course that being in the original autograph copies, but which translators tried to faithfully maintain. Therefore, when God tells us that He would destroy the world, He was actually speaking about the world, all of it, which is repeated throughout Scripture regarding its destruction, so when He said "world" in John 3, I believe that's exactly what He meant - the world. Therefore, respectfully, I don't think your narrowing of the definition of "world" is correct. Again, it was God who moved the writers to write exactly what He wanted written, so when He said "world", He meant world, although, admittedly, the word "world" is used in Scripture, with several variation to represent different aspects of it, but it was still intended to be understood in a global sense.

Lastly, the qualifying phrase, "whosoever believes" tells us who will be saved and why they will be saved, and "the world", then, tells us that God did not limit salvation to the Jews/Israel alone, but to "whosoever believes" instead, wherever they come from/whoever they are, whether they are Jewish, or not

No, I don't think it tells us why they will be saved; I think it describes an attribute common to all those who became saved, but which came from salvation. I do agree, however, that the world to come will be inhabited by people redeemed from all groups of people regardless of their earthly, human lineages.

[Rev 5:9 KJV] 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

 

[Roger316]

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The Law, Old Testament, says do and live while the grace of God says live in Christ and then do.

Grace put very simply: God's grace is greater than all our sin and Jesus died for the sins of the world. John 3:16

............................................... Grace is not earned nor kept.

....................................... For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. John 1:17


Of course this op is going to be like a waving red flag to some and that's ok. The truth is still the truth and the word of God does not return to Him void.

so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it. Isaiah 55:11

Apart from the spoken word of God, the word according to scripture, is also Jesus. Jesus is sent from God. Jesus, who absolutely accomplished all of the purposes of God and in whom we are righteous before God.

And, John testifies of this also.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
4In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.
5The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. John chapter 1...................................

The Law gives us neither feet nor hands; grace bids us fly and gives us wings.

 

[rogerg]

I think you do not understand what I posted. At least it seems to be the case, because I said nothing whatsoever about law bringing anyone to God's grace.

I posted alot of scripture. Maybe reference my post 26

Thanks for the reply, pinebeach. I think that I understood your point but probably didn't do a very good job of explaining mine.
I realize that you didn't mention law, but I did. I was trying to demonstrate that if faith is a requirement for salvation, then that makes faith also a law that must be satisfied, but no one can become saved by their satisfying of law.
I'm trying to think of a simpler way to explain it and hopefully will try again tomorrow. Basically, it is that there is nothing that could restrict someone from becoming saved if God had chosen that person to salvation - that everything comes as a result of salvation.
I know, off topic, sorry.