The grace of God and the Law

[markss]

its just my own belief and how my belief operates . I don’t let one point erase the rest if I had to choose a “ most important thing to our salvation , ot would of course be the lord Jesus coming freely into the world living among us and suffering and dying not for any sin he committed because he didn’t but for our mistakes and t failures and addictions and shortcomings and flat out rebellion at times …..and then rising up again the third day ascending into heaven where he intercedes for believers now then and forever ……

John 17:1-3 LITV
1) Jesus spoke these things and lifted up His eyes to Heaven, and said, Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son may also glorify You,
2) as You gave to Him authority over all flesh, so that to all which You gave to Him, He may give to them everlasting life.
3) And this is everlasting life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

For me this is the heart of the matter, that we may know God. All else comes after that.

Much love!

 

[Pilgrimshope]

OH REALLY ------your Thread title is

The grace of God and the Law ------​

Seriously --

The law

“breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again.”
‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭24:20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭19:21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Grace and truth the word of Christ

“Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

but I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:38-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Don’t have any mercy upon the sinner , You shall take equal revenge you must remove the evil from among you v

judge not , be merciful to the offender don’t take any revenge at all but pardon the blow or offense…..

One follows what the flesh wants when we’re offended we want to lash out in retaliation . The other follows the spirits desire spoken by Christ in the gospel don’t retaliate but forgive the offense be merciful as God has been merciful to you who also have sinned ……

the law means there’s a written law and you either follow it tonthe letter or you receive what it says for breaking it . There’s no grace for a sinner in the process like this

“And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.”
‭‭Numbers‬ ‭15:32-33, 35-36‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He had broken the sabbath commandment by picking up sticks . And for this because the law was thoer governing decree there’s no place for repentance , no place for mercy or a second chance because again the commandments themselves only show us what sin is not what righteousness is we find righteousness in Christs doctrine the gospel not the law there we could only hope to find self righteousness . Which would have us disobeying the things jesus taught


alike we would feel like “ an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth “ was what god had said to us but it’s not what Jesus said is what god said Tony’s in the new covenant where all the true things and grace is found .

“For the law was given by Moses,


but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬



The gospel is Gods expression of his Will for mankind the law was about restraining these folks

“knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers( honor your mother and father ) , for manslayers, ( do nOt kill ) for whoremongers, ( do not commit adultery or fornications ) for them that defile themselves with mankind, ( let not a man lie with another man ) for menstealers, for liars, ( do not lie ) for perjured persons, ( do not bear false witness ) and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭1:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬


the gospel will redeem us from all that …..the law is meant to govern man in the state of flesh without the Holy Spirit . The gospel is meant to give us the Holy Ghost and teach us the Will of God our Heavenly Father

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Amen!

Putting what we've learned into practice is key to learning more.

Hebrews 5:12-14 KJV
12) For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13) For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14) But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

2 Corinthians 3:17-18 LITV
17) And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
18) But we all with our face having been unveiled, having beheld the glory of the Lord in a mirror, are being changed into the same image from glory to glory, as from the Lord Spirit.

Seeing God reflected in us changes us into that same image. When we act like Him, when we look like Him, it makes us like Him, because we learn of Him in a deeper way.

Much love!

“Seeing God reflected in us changes us into that same image. When we act like Him, when we look like Him, it makes us like Him, because we learn of Him in a deeper way.“

like that a lot we’ll said it reminds me of this verse


“But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3:18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[pinebeach]

OH REALLY ------your Thread title is

The grace of God and the Law ------​

Seriously --

You think I'm unaware of what goes on whenever someone brings up the fact that God is our salvation and none of our efforts compliment or help Him out with that?

The op was further developed once we got past the objections and personal opinions this way:

Understanding grace from the position of already having accepted Christ may sometimes create a little forgetfullness regarding where we started from. Sometimes people start thinking they need to 'do' things to be or stay saved. Neither of those concepts
reflect the grace of God and scripture addresses that way of thinking very clearly.

Before a person is saved, they are without the grace of God. The Bible reflects the fact we were born in sin. Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. Psalms 51:5 Notonly that, but we were actually enemies of God. That is, against Him; in rebellion to Him.

For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. Romans 5:10

We deserved a death sentence from God because of these things. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

This is where God revealed His grace, His forgiveness through the sacrifice of His Son. The righteousness we receive is entirely given through our faith in Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, Ephesians 2:80

2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our fleshand following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4;But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Ephesians 2

You had plenty of time to read this, but you preferred trying to correct me which is fine, but it's not fine at this point.

 

[pinebeach]

OK Pilgrim...shall we have another go? I hope you understand where I'm coming from and the fact that most threads go so far off course they end up devouring themselves and are meaningless. Yeah I am a bit of a stickler. Listen, I like honesty and I know that does not always go over but I think you also prefer that so.....

I am wondering what you think about believing obedience to laws adds to our salvation? (not a trick question honestly)

 

[Pilgrimshope]

John 17:1-3 LITV
1) Jesus spoke these things and lifted up His eyes to Heaven, and said, Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son may also glorify You,
2) as You gave to Him authority over all flesh, so that to all which You gave to Him, He may give to them everlasting life.
3) And this is everlasting life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

For me this is the heart of the matter, that we may know God. All else comes after that.

Much love!

That’s a good foundational point couldn’t argue with it. Sort of reminds me of the beginning of johns gospel

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:1-2, 4, 9-10, 12-14, 16-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I think hearing the gospel and listening to Jesus word is how we can begin getting to know him ….

“All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11:27-30‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Really we’re meant to be disciples of Jesus because we believe the gospel …seems simple this is how we come to know him hearing his word and beginning to accept and trust what he was telling us about God the Father and the Son and our own corrupted selves our world aboit life and death and what comes after about our promised land ahead ect

 

[Pilgrimshope]

OK Pilgrim...shall we have another go? I hope you understand where I'm coming from and the fact that most threads go so far off course they end up devouring themselves and are meaningless. Yeah I am a bit of a stickler. Listen, I like honesty and I know that does not always go over but I think you also prefer that so.....

I am wondering what you think about believing obedience to laws adds to our salvation? (not a trick question honestly)

Yeah again I’m not offended I like discussing the Bible with anyone . I have found that when you speak face to face you can say something and then if you write it in text form ….. sometimes there’s “ tone and intention” we perceive that we wouldn’t if we were speaking because a lot of the tone and manner things are being said is misinterpreted


i don’t mean you any offense but we may disagree about some things …… which I expect is probably not the end of the world for either of us lol

 

[markss]

I've seen several threads in this forum wherein faith is actually considered a law....law as in commandment. And right, we do not find faith described as a law but interestingly, Abraham is declared righteous because of his faith/belief. I think we (anyone) might start to run into a little trouble if we become too philosophical (if that's the right word for getting stuck and start splitting hairs)

For myself I like to order my thoughts according to the words of Scripture, and try not to go too far away from that in my explanations and interpretations.

Words have meanings, as they say

Really we’re meant to be disciples of Jesus because we believe the gospel …

Disciples, that is, learners of Him, yes, not to overshadow our relationship, that we are Jesus' brothers, family. In that basis we are also His students.

Much love!

 

[pinebeach]

Yeah again I’m not offended I like discussing the Bible with anyone . I have found that when you speak face to face you can say something and then if you write it in text form ….. sometimes there’s “ tone and intention” we perceive that we wouldn’t if we were speaking because a lot of the tone and manner things are being said is misinterpreted


i don’t mean you any offense but we may disagree about some things …… which I expect is probably not the end of the world for either of us lol

I'm not really talking about tone and intention. I was trying to keep to the op. Just using scripture for that. My intent is always to bring our faith back to Jesus and not our efforts. Too many are substituting their own efforts and adding it to their understanding of salvation when salvation does not consist of our efforts at all!

It's simple really

 

[pinebeach]

For myself I like to order my thoughts according to the words of Scripture, and try not to go too far away from that in my explanations and interpretations.

Words have meanings, as they say

 

[markss]

My concern is those who try to say that if you simply 'believe' that means you also think you are free to sin.

In Christ, you could say we ARE free to sin, in the same way that anyone is free to thrust their hand into a pile of burning coals.

It won't kill you, but it won't help you, and you won't like it, and it may leave some nasty scars! It may even render you less useful to the Lord. Lost opportunity and all that.

Much love!

 

[studentoftheword]

You had plenty of time to read this, but you preferred trying to correct me which is fine, but it's not fine at this point.

So what your saying here is you don't like it when people Correct you with the Truth ----

You think ---What you post is right and what others post you find fault with -----this is being prideful ---as others here just may have a little more Spiritual Knowledge than you do -----this is what you don't like that I see from your post to others including me ----------

Now for instance this you say

Before a person is saved, they are without the grace of God.

This is not really true ------you say this without Specifying what Grace you Speak of here ---if your going to try teach here ---you need to clarify what you mean so that people understand that your Rightly Dividing the Word of God -----and not Wrongly dividing it -------

There is Common Grace which God who is Grace allows all of us to experience ------

The scripture is quite clear on Common Grace --

Matthew 5:45. Jesus teaches that God shows common grace by causing His sun to rise and rain to fall on both the righteous and the unrighteous,

So what your Talking about is -----Saving Grace------ which comes through Saving Faith ------and you should State that so people know what Grace you speak of ------

Your good at quoting Scripture -----but not so good on your Clarifying of it -----Just saying
And
do you really fully understand the Spiritual meaning of the Scriptures you quote -----
cause that is more important than just quoting a bunch of Scripture -----

anyone can quote Scripture -------but Getting the Rhema word behind the Words in the Scripture is very important and that comes by way of allowing the Holy Spirit to direct you in Getting that meaning ------and then conveying the Spiritual meaning is very helpful ------

For instance the Scripture I quote here ----for Common Grace

Matthew 5:45 -----the spiritual take away is that this shows God's Love ----AGAPE ---and Grace -------
which is an unconditional, non-discriminating love and undeserved favor which He gives to all His Creation ---just and unjust ----

And as Believers we are to show His Agape and Grace to all people -----

If your going to speak on Grace you should Clarify which Grace your speaking of ------so people can get a better sense of your post ------Just saying

 

[markss]

My intent is always to bring our faith back to Jesus and not our efforts. Too many are substituting their own efforts and adding it to their understanding of salvation when salvation does not consist of our efforts at all!

It's simple really

Simple, but not easy!

For me, I have no illusions whatsoever that I can of myself do anything of eternal value, or to make myself prettier to God. Only in Christ. Only His plan.

Trying to "keep Law" of necessity means to keep part of the Law, because you cannot in the current time keep the Law. No temple, no Levites, no priests, these are integral to keeping the Law. And the Bible condemns anyone who does not keep all the Law. Carving it into pieces is to break the Law, become a Lawbreaker.

"All that you say we will do", this was the Israelite's side of the covenant. Not, some of what you say we will do. The modern day "Lawkeeper", if they actually do keep all the parts they think they can, it will still be a version of their own law, inspired by God's Law, but NOT God's Law.

Much love!

 

[markss]

Your good at quoting Scripture -----but not so good on your Clarifying of it -----Just saying
And
do you really fully understand the Spiritual meaning of the Scriptures you quote -----
cause that is more important than just quoting a bunch of Scripture -----

anyone can quote Scripture -------but Getting the Rhema word behind the Words in the Scripture is very important and that comes by way of allowing the Holy Spirit to direct you in Getting that meaning ------and then conveying the Spiritual meaning is very helpful ------

For instance the Scripture I quote here ----for Common Grace

You think ---What you post is right and what others post you find fault with -----this is being prideful ---as others here just may have a little more Spiritual Knowledge than you do -----this is what you don't like that I see from your post to others including me ----------

 

[Pilgrimshope]

For myself I like to order my thoughts according to the words of Scripture, and try not to go too far away from that in my explanations and interpretations.

Words have meanings, as they say

Disciples, that is, learners of Him, yes, not to overshadow our relationship, that we are Jesus' brothers, family. In that basis we are also His students.

Much love!

Agreed ! It’s all relevant and true but babes have to first be born …. And drink the good milk …. Before they will ever mature and eat the meat and potatoes

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I'm not really talking about tone and intention. I was trying to keep to the op. Just using scripture for that. My intent is always to bring our faith back to Jesus and not our efforts. Too many are substituting their own efforts and adding it to their understanding of salvation when salvation does not consist of our efforts at all!

It's simple really

Right it’s about gods grace correct ? That’s why I was quoting scripture about it from the bible like this

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I was discussing what that’s saying about gods grace that brings salvation that has appeared to us all ……which I apologize I thought the subject was grace according to scripture like this above

arhat else I had said is that peoppe use the word “ grace “ and thier own ideas and explainations to erase the things written that zgod has said about being saved and being born his children ect ect

Amy only point with that was just saying the word “ grace “ doesn’t change any of the doctrine Jesus and his apostles taught believers …..that type of grace that requires us to reject Jesus word about things isnt from God it’s the grace the Bible warns us about used to justify ongoing sinful lifestyle free of any guilt …..

 

[markss]

Amy only point with that was just saying the word “ grace “ doesn’t change any of the doctrine Jesus and his apostles taught believers …..that type of grace that requires us to reject Jesus word about things isnt from God it’s the grace the Bible warns us about used to justify ongoing sinful lifestyle free of any guilt …..

Could you give an example?

Much love!

 

[pinebeach]

In Christ, you could say we ARE free to sin, in the same way that anyone is free to thrust their hand into a pile of burning coals.

It won't kill you, but it won't help you, and you won't like it, and it may leave some nasty scars! It may even render you less useful to the Lord. Lost opportunity and all that.

Much love!

Right it’s about gods grace correct ? That’s why I was quoting scripture about it from the bible like this

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I was discussing what that’s saying about gods grace that brings salvation that has appeared to us all ……which I apologize I thought the subject was grace according to scripture like this above

arhat else I had said is that peoppe use the word “ grace “ and thier own ideas and explainations to erase the things written that zgod has said about being saved and being born his children ect ect

Amy only point with that was just saying the word “ grace “ doesn’t change any of the doctrine Jesus and his apostles taught believers …..that type of grace that requires us to reject Jesus word about things isnt from God it’s the grace the Bible warns us about used to justify ongoing sinful lifestyle free of any guilt …..

OK. Let me try again. Perception can vary. Anyway

There is a conflict for some between God's grace and keeping the law to be in His grace. I tried to make this clearer in my post 26.

Of course saying 'grace' does not mean free to sin (although some people, who think law keeping is closer to God's heart despite the fact no one is sinless)

I am positioning myself from the biblical message of salvation/the gospel, meaning we cannot achieve salvation nor can we keep salvation nor can we add to salvation. All the glory goes to Jesus and He is our salvation and we cannot add to it.

Not talking about sanctification or obedience or anything in how we live our lives for Him/in Him....just the plain simple fact of Jesus being our justification and righteousness before the Father. The conflict I am trying to address is Jesus being complete salvation or do we need to do our part once saved, in keeping it

Even simpler: Is Jesus enough or do we need to complete our salvation

Note: I'm not talking about obedience or works we might do for God...just the most simple parts of an equation that people often do not agree on if this forum is any indication or even outside of it

 

[pinebeach]

So what your saying here is you don't like it when people Correct you with the Truth ----

You think ---What you post is right and what others post you find fault with -----this is being prideful ---as others here just may have a little more Spiritual Knowledge than you do -----this is what you don't like that I see from your post to others including me ----------

Now for instance this you say



This is not really true ------you say this without Specifying what Grace you Speak of here ---if your going to try teach here ---you need to clarify what you mean so that people understand that your Rightly Dividing the Word of God -----and not Wrongly dividing it -------

There is Common Grace which God who is Grace allows all of us to experience ------

The scripture is quite clear on Common Grace --

Matthew 5:45. Jesus teaches that God shows common grace by causing His sun to rise and rain to fall on both the righteous and the unrighteous,

So what your Talking about is -----Saving Grace------ which comes through Saving Faith ------and you should State that so people know what Grace you speak of ------

Your good at quoting Scripture -----but not so good on your Clarifying of it -----Just saying
And
do you really fully understand the Spiritual meaning of the Scriptures you quote -----
cause that is more important than just quoting a bunch of Scripture -----

anyone can quote Scripture -------but Getting the Rhema word behind the Words in the Scripture is very important and that comes by way of allowing the Holy Spirit to direct you in Getting that meaning ------and then conveying the Spiritual meaning is very helpful ------

For instance the Scripture I quote here ----for Common Grace

Matthew 5:45 -----the spiritual take away is that this shows God's Love ----AGAPE ---and Grace -------
which is an unconditional, non-discriminating love and undeserved favor which He gives to all His Creation ---just and unjust ----

And as Believers we are to show His Agape and Grace to all people -----

If your going to speak on Grace you should Clarify which Grace your speaking of ------so people can get a better sense of your post ------Just saying

You simply do not understand my op and what you say about me is not true. I do not have one single thought or hope of changing your perception of me or my op. I understand you need to justify yourself but that is a you problem. Sorry, it's not that we should agree to disagree. We are not on the same planet

 

[pinebeach]

This is Who I believe in. Why do we think we can do a single thing to impress God or add to His salvation? I'm not special but I think a little differently and when I see this as pictured in Revelation, I rejoice that I can do nothing. What could I possibly ever ever do to make any difference to this Being? Do you get the picture? Do we really understand all God did when sending His only begotten Son to die in our place because He loved us so much His heart could not stand the separation?

I don't know. Somehow in these days we have to get the picture of who God really is because things are closing in. I'm no prophet but how can we as believers be satisfied with the status quo? And I know that some resent me for pointing this out and saying these things. Who do I think I am? Actually I don't usually wonder about that at all. I'm too busy looking at someone Else because what else is there to live for when everything on this earth is temporary


John's Revelation

4 After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 2At once I was in the Spirit, and behold, a throne stood in heaven, with one seated on the throne. 3And he who sat there had the appearance of jasper and carnelian, and around the throne was a rainbow that had the appearance of an emerald. 4;Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and seated on the thrones were twenty-four elders, clothed in white garments, with golden crowns on their heads. 5From the throne came flashes of lightning, and rumblings and peals of thunder, and before the throne were burning seven torches of fire, which are the seven spirits of God, 6and before the throne there was as it were a sea of glass, like crystal.

And around the throne, on each side of the throne, are four living creatures, full of eyes in front and behind: 7;the first living creature like a lion, the second living creature like an ox, the third living creature with the face of a man, and the fourth living creature like an eagle in flight. 8And the four living creatures, each of them with six wings, are full of eyes all around and within, and day and night they never cease to say,

“Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty,
who was and is and is to come!”
9And whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to him who is seated on the throne, who lives forever and ever, 10the twenty-four elders fall down before him who is seated on the throne and worship him who lives forever and ever. They cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

11“Worthy are you, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they existed and were created.”