There is no such thing as Sola Scriptura
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No. You gave credit to men. The catholic church is no different than the jewsih religious leaders in the time of Christ, they make the same excuses and same arguments.
The apostles would not be caught dead giving credit to the Jewish leaders of God for putting the word together, Or without them there would be no word..
Keep fooling yourself into thinking you give no credit to men. the only one your fooling is yourself (and those who follow you, of which I would be afraid if I were you. that someone would be kept from Gods truth listening to you praise men..)
The apostles would not be caught dead giving credit to the Jewish leaders of God for putting the word together, Or without them there would be no word..
Keep fooling yourself into thinking you give no credit to men. the only one your fooling is yourself (and those who follow you, of which I would be afraid if I were you. that someone would be kept from Gods truth listening to you praise men..)
I was going to say this.
Without scripture, how does one test all things, to see if they are from God?
Without scripture as the final authority, how does a person know whether or not they are in error? Whether they are following a false teacher?
All things must be tested against God's word. Any teachings that don't agree are to be rejected.
The Bereans were admired for checking all things with scripture, to ensure what the disciples said agreed with scripture.
(The Bereans)
Acts 17:11: "These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so"
2 Timothy 3:16: "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work"
1 John 4:1: "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world"
Galatians 1:8: "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed" - we know the gospel as written in scripture, so we must reject any teaching that does not agree with scripture.
Catholicism isn't a christian denomination, because they believe a different gospel. They are a completely separate religious system.
Christian denominations are united when it comes to the gospel truth, but differ when it comes to non salvational topics, like eschatology, etc.
No one denies the protestant world is a mess, as many heresies have crept into the churches.
As for the queen of Heaven, look into that. The queen of Heaven originated in pagan Babylon and spread throughout the world under different names. It was very much part of their religious tradition to worship her as a goddess. Paganism and idolatry began in Babylon. This is the mystery system spoken of in scripture. When Christianity was merged with paganism this tradition remained.
Christian denominations are united when it comes to the gospel truth, but differ when it comes to non salvational topics, like eschatology, etc.
No one denies the protestant world is a mess, as many heresies have crept into the churches.
As for the queen of Heaven, look into that. The queen of Heaven originated in pagan Babylon and spread throughout the world under different names. It was very much part of their religious tradition to worship her as a goddess. Paganism and idolatry began in Babylon. This is the mystery system spoken of in scripture. When Christianity was merged with paganism this tradition remained.
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Actually, not so much! While I appreciate your testimony, the apostles and the gospels quote both the Hebrew and LXX. In fact, whole books have been written about why John or Mark or Matthew or Luke quoted Jesus using the Hebrew here, or the LXX there, or Paul using one or another version.
NOT that they are that different! Just a few places here and there on non- doctrinal issues!
As for being converted because the Catholic religion uses the Bible and oral tradition, well, not so much either. I am barely into this thread, and I am sure many good answers will come up. Oral tradition happens because people do not read or write, and even the Old Testament was written down! As for the Catholic Church, it was my understanding that a Magisterium has to vet everything that goes out as Catholic doctrine. That is the pope and his bishops, and it is certainly written down, from what I have read.
To me, the biggest issue is salvation BY WORKS and through the Catholic Church only. Sadly, you have believed the lies about Peter and the keys to the church, when in fact, Peter was just one among equals, spreading the gospel. There were originally 4 main centers for the church, Rome, Jerusalem, Antioch (which later became Constantinople) and Egypt. Three of those groups still exist, the Jerusalem church dying out by the 3rd or 4 century AD.
As for the pope, it was a term first coined for the bishop of Alexandria in the 3rd century, and the Roman church stole it. The Catholic church effectively blocked people from understanding the gospel for literally centuries.
I am so grateful for the Reformers, and for the men who made the Bible available in English and other languages so that we could read it, and be freed from this ignorance of the truth and devotion to a monolith called the Roman Catholic Church, which preaches salvation only through the church.
Do you really think that if the Reformers had not read the truth in the original languages, like Martin Luther and John Calvin, the Catholic church would have ever let people have access, let alone read the Bible? Menno Friesen, the first Anabaptist started as a Catholic priest and he was told as a priest it was better for him not to read the Bible. He went ahead anyway, then he broke away too! And he was hunted down the rest of his life!
Pardon me for venting, but sometimes a rant is all that one can do!
NOT that they are that different! Just a few places here and there on non- doctrinal issues!
As for being converted because the Catholic religion uses the Bible and oral tradition, well, not so much either. I am barely into this thread, and I am sure many good answers will come up. Oral tradition happens because people do not read or write, and even the Old Testament was written down! As for the Catholic Church, it was my understanding that a Magisterium has to vet everything that goes out as Catholic doctrine. That is the pope and his bishops, and it is certainly written down, from what I have read.
To me, the biggest issue is salvation BY WORKS and through the Catholic Church only. Sadly, you have believed the lies about Peter and the keys to the church, when in fact, Peter was just one among equals, spreading the gospel. There were originally 4 main centers for the church, Rome, Jerusalem, Antioch (which later became Constantinople) and Egypt. Three of those groups still exist, the Jerusalem church dying out by the 3rd or 4 century AD.
As for the pope, it was a term first coined for the bishop of Alexandria in the 3rd century, and the Roman church stole it. The Catholic church effectively blocked people from understanding the gospel for literally centuries.
I am so grateful for the Reformers, and for the men who made the Bible available in English and other languages so that we could read it, and be freed from this ignorance of the truth and devotion to a monolith called the Roman Catholic Church, which preaches salvation only through the church.
Do you really think that if the Reformers had not read the truth in the original languages, like Martin Luther and John Calvin, the Catholic church would have ever let people have access, let alone read the Bible? Menno Friesen, the first Anabaptist started as a Catholic priest and he was told as a priest it was better for him not to read the Bible. He went ahead anyway, then he broke away too! And he was hunted down the rest of his life!
Pardon me for venting, but sometimes a rant is all that one can do!
It has been stressed in this thread that folks could not alway read, but note this, when the Word did become available to the masses to read or have it read to them, the schism increased between the informed and the uninformed, betwee those who worshiped what they know and those who worshiped in darkness. Historical facts for those who like facts.
Well, I posted my last post here from page one, and I see the essential issue has not been addressed.
Catholics and Christians have the same Christology. That means how we see Christ - he is divine, he is Saviour, and Lord.
Where we fundamentally disagree is NOT as some would say, worship of Mary, or venerating saints. (Although I do not agree with those practices!)
The basic difference is soteriology. That is how we are saved. Christians believe, as it says in the Bible that we are saved through grace, not of works that any one should boast. Eph. 2:8-9.
Catholics believe the sacraments - baptism, etc, but especially the eucharist save.
In order for a wafer to save, it has to be magically turned into Jesus, through the office of the priest. Transubstantiation. Not a Bible word, and a big issue for debate for a long time. So basically, you MUST have the RCC church, or you cannot be saved.
What the Bible says, is:
"Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.' Romans 10:9-10
"Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” [SUP]31 [/SUP]And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Acts 16:30-31. Then Paul explained "THE WORD" of the Lord and they were all baptized.
Notice how there is no church, no Peter, no priest, no eucharist, no pope. Just believe and be saved. Confess and believe.
Of course, repentance also figures in many other places, and I am quite sure that Paul explained that FROM THE WORD, before he baptized these new Philippian believers.
"Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance." Luke 15:7
Of course, Peter did preach the gospel, especially on the day of Pentecost.
"And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Acts 2:38. But no where did he claim to be in charge, and later on Paul had to chastise him for giving into the Judaizers. So Peter was certainly not the leader of the church, nor the first pope. And he never said a thing about having to become a member of the Roman Catholic Church.
"But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas (Peter) before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?” Gal. 2:14
But Peter did say other good things about salvation, including:
"The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance." 2 Peter 3:9
Well, I don't want anyone to think I condemn all Catholics, I have known some very godly Catholics, who love Jesus, not Mary, and worship him with all their hearts. But this thread bears some honest answers.
I just want to leave the writings of Keith Green and the Catholic Chronicles for a reference to anyone who wants to read about salvation according to Rome. He went into all the Catholic documents and catechisms, and he quotes from those sources.
It is very informative, to hear what Catholics say about themselves about the means of salvation. I would not have entered into this thread, if it had not had been such an inflammatory start. So I apologize if I seem mean spirited, but the truth must be told.
Catholic Chronicles
http://www.sohmer.net/media/KG-TCC.pdf
Catholics and Christians have the same Christology. That means how we see Christ - he is divine, he is Saviour, and Lord.
Where we fundamentally disagree is NOT as some would say, worship of Mary, or venerating saints. (Although I do not agree with those practices!)
The basic difference is soteriology. That is how we are saved. Christians believe, as it says in the Bible that we are saved through grace, not of works that any one should boast. Eph. 2:8-9.
Catholics believe the sacraments - baptism, etc, but especially the eucharist save.
In order for a wafer to save, it has to be magically turned into Jesus, through the office of the priest. Transubstantiation. Not a Bible word, and a big issue for debate for a long time. So basically, you MUST have the RCC church, or you cannot be saved.
What the Bible says, is:
"Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.' Romans 10:9-10
"Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” [SUP]31 [/SUP]And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Acts 16:30-31. Then Paul explained "THE WORD" of the Lord and they were all baptized.
Notice how there is no church, no Peter, no priest, no eucharist, no pope. Just believe and be saved. Confess and believe.
Of course, repentance also figures in many other places, and I am quite sure that Paul explained that FROM THE WORD, before he baptized these new Philippian believers.
"Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance." Luke 15:7
Of course, Peter did preach the gospel, especially on the day of Pentecost.
"And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Acts 2:38. But no where did he claim to be in charge, and later on Paul had to chastise him for giving into the Judaizers. So Peter was certainly not the leader of the church, nor the first pope. And he never said a thing about having to become a member of the Roman Catholic Church.
"But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas (Peter) before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?” Gal. 2:14
But Peter did say other good things about salvation, including:
"The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance." 2 Peter 3:9
Well, I don't want anyone to think I condemn all Catholics, I have known some very godly Catholics, who love Jesus, not Mary, and worship him with all their hearts. But this thread bears some honest answers.
I just want to leave the writings of Keith Green and the Catholic Chronicles for a reference to anyone who wants to read about salvation according to Rome. He went into all the Catholic documents and catechisms, and he quotes from those sources.
It is very informative, to hear what Catholics say about themselves about the means of salvation. I would not have entered into this thread, if it had not had been such an inflammatory start. So I apologize if I seem mean spirited, but the truth must be told.
Catholic Chronicles
http://www.sohmer.net/media/KG-TCC.pdf
On the surface the following teaching may not seem to apply, but if given just a little thought, it turns out it is right on the subject. "You cannot serve God and mammon!"
To say the RCC has the same "christology" as do those who read the Word and do their best to follow it is a lie. It is not true. The One God does not share power or any responsibility with any of His creatures. Just because we are adopted is absolutely no excuse to seek flesh to honor in the stead of our Father in Yeshua, Jesus.
Please, diplomacy of any kind has no place when replacing the truth with a lie.
To say the RCC has the same "christology" as do those who read the Word and do their best to follow it is a lie. It is not true. The One God does not share power or any responsibility with any of His creatures. Just because we are adopted is absolutely no excuse to seek flesh to honor in the stead of our Father in Yeshua, Jesus.
Please, diplomacy of any kind has no place when replacing the truth with a lie.
I consider that some people belonging to the catholic church do not know the extent of what takes places under that religion.
I doubt if i visited a town in america i would find mary statues on corners throughout like i witnessed in some parts of italia..
I have never witnessed people pulling statues along but Jack in spain witnesses this.
All that said when the pope is pictured time and time again in front of mary statues, or another taking flowers to an image, should not those of that religion consider why they do these things, even if they themselves do not?
Reading the Bible i learnt that this is not pleasing to Heavenly Father and that is where my heart is.
i don't hate the people or bash them but try to inform them.. it puzzles me why they do not take heed and want to please Heavenly Father.
I for one will pray for strength and guidance on this matter.
i mean no one no evil but without mocking the Truth must be offered.
All those that were victims of the dark ages did not waiver but suffered torture for not accepting such things that many are willing to overlook for 'unity'.. no that is not how it ends my friends.
I doubt if i visited a town in america i would find mary statues on corners throughout like i witnessed in some parts of italia..
I have never witnessed people pulling statues along but Jack in spain witnesses this.
All that said when the pope is pictured time and time again in front of mary statues, or another taking flowers to an image, should not those of that religion consider why they do these things, even if they themselves do not?
Reading the Bible i learnt that this is not pleasing to Heavenly Father and that is where my heart is.
i don't hate the people or bash them but try to inform them.. it puzzles me why they do not take heed and want to please Heavenly Father.
I for one will pray for strength and guidance on this matter.
i mean no one no evil but without mocking the Truth must be offered.
All those that were victims of the dark ages did not waiver but suffered torture for not accepting such things that many are willing to overlook for 'unity'.. no that is not how it ends my friends.
Forgive me if this Scripture was already used, but I just don't have time to sift through six pages of nonsense. This shows sola scriptura was alive, well and had God's approval long before the usurpation of the Roman Catholic Churh (which by the way is an oxymoron) .
Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
My mother in-law lights candles to a statue of Mary and says prayers to her. It's very worrying.
The Jews were guilty of baking cakes to this 'queen of Heaven' which angered God. Loveme1 quoted the scriptures... Jeremiah I think. They dabbled in the idolatry.
Really interesting....
Luke 11: 24-28: “When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when he comes, he finds it swept and put in order. Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first”............ And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!” But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
Interesting that Jesus was speaking about demons and then this woman, mentioned here as "a certain woman," starts trying to elevate Mary who bore Jesus... but Jesus rebukes her.
Matthew 12:46-50: While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.” But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”
Again, Mary was not elevated here either. Another point... this is a scripture that confirms Jesus had brothers, so Mary did have other children. I know Catholics claim she always remained a virgin, not ever having other children. Scripture says differently though.
Mary actually had 4 sons (James, Joses, Simon & Judas) and daughters also (Matthew 13:55). Scripture mentions Jesus' sisters but does not give us names or say how many. It was actually normal for Jewish families to be large, and this is clear evidence that Mary consummated her marriage to Joseph. Not consummating the marriage would've been a sin anyway.
The Jews were guilty of baking cakes to this 'queen of Heaven' which angered God. Loveme1 quoted the scriptures... Jeremiah I think. They dabbled in the idolatry.
Really interesting....
Luke 11: 24-28: “When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when he comes, he finds it swept and put in order. Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first”............ And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!” But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
Interesting that Jesus was speaking about demons and then this woman, mentioned here as "a certain woman," starts trying to elevate Mary who bore Jesus... but Jesus rebukes her.
Matthew 12:46-50: While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.” But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”
Again, Mary was not elevated here either. Another point... this is a scripture that confirms Jesus had brothers, so Mary did have other children. I know Catholics claim she always remained a virgin, not ever having other children. Scripture says differently though.
Mary actually had 4 sons (James, Joses, Simon & Judas) and daughters also (Matthew 13:55). Scripture mentions Jesus' sisters but does not give us names or say how many. It was actually normal for Jewish families to be large, and this is clear evidence that Mary consummated her marriage to Joseph. Not consummating the marriage would've been a sin anyway.
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i'm not sure myself what name it was the the people baked cakes to only the 'queen of heaven' it could of been any of the pagan names etc.. there does seem to be a common theme throughout the pagan type worship, though like all things man will add or take or even change over time.
It was the behaviour that does resemble the practice of the catholic religion that i was bringing to light.
i'm by far the brightest spark but what is being done under the guise of reverence appears to me to be worshiping.
Taking flowers to an image is a far cry from us calling Mary blessed above all.
i mean Mary was chosen to carry the Messiah in her womb and raise Him for the Salvation of the world.. no getting past that and rightly so.
This does not warrant such abominable behaviour but acknowledgement certainly so.
The Humble Mary indeed.
It was the behaviour that does resemble the practice of the catholic religion that i was bringing to light.
i'm by far the brightest spark but what is being done under the guise of reverence appears to me to be worshiping.
Taking flowers to an image is a far cry from us calling Mary blessed above all.
i mean Mary was chosen to carry the Messiah in her womb and raise Him for the Salvation of the world.. no getting past that and rightly so.
This does not warrant such abominable behaviour but acknowledgement certainly so.
The Humble Mary indeed.
Here the Children of Israel are being addressed:
Jer 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
Jer 7:19 Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?
Reading before and after this helps understanding. This is not the only reference to the queen of heaven...
Jer 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
Jer 7:19 Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?
Reading before and after this helps understanding. This is not the only reference to the queen of heaven...