Total inability - original sin - inherited from adam
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A
Interesting, Never thought about it this way..
Imagine leading the whole way, The before you get to the end of the race, get disqualified. (I like it)
(not that we are working for reward anyway, at least we should not be concerned with those things in my view)
I always took that verse to be paul saying his whole christian life was spent gibving the gospel and starting new churches as an ambassador of Christ, He ran hard, because no matter how many churches he started, no matter how many people he helped lead to the lord. A few wrong actions on his part could take that all away, and his ministry and ability to continue doing what he was cast to do would be destroyed (he would be disqualified)
which goes with what you are saying.. It is good to learn new things, Thanks sis
I took it as a more personal walk..,for example Paul preaches for walking in the Spirit not the flesh.
To walk in the flesh disqualified you from the race. But there is more than one race and the prize is not your salvation but another soul won for Christ.
We run according to the law to win souls to God by how we run, but other brothers and sisters run too and strive to win that soul as well.
However what if everyone gets disqualified?
The Enemy tries to get people to cheat,lures them with false shortcuts, etc.
E
ok, I see it deeper than this.
I see it as we all have our gifts, And god has plans for all of us, Not everyone wil be an apostle. but each persons job is just as important.
No matter what Job we have, We can disqualify ourselves from being able to be used by God by just one sin. (imagine of paul came in the flesh and got caught in an adulterous affair with another mans wife,
It may have been a moment of time walking in the flesh, But his disqualification would have been for along time, if not permanent (he may never have regained peoples trust)
Thats the Way I always saw it anyway,, As usual, I could be wrong..lol or we both could be right
I see it as we all have our gifts, And god has plans for all of us, Not everyone wil be an apostle. but each persons job is just as important.
No matter what Job we have, We can disqualify ourselves from being able to be used by God by just one sin. (imagine of paul came in the flesh and got caught in an adulterous affair with another mans wife,
It may have been a moment of time walking in the flesh, But his disqualification would have been for along time, if not permanent (he may never have regained peoples trust)
Thats the Way I always saw it anyway,, As usual, I could be wrong..lol or we both could be right
"what is love" interesting you started with this phrase. Is it something you are asking?
A traditional presentation is God is where hearts should be but self is evil and selfish. If God is making us into righteous, pure holy people, self is not evil, but outward caring and loving. What is on the throne of ones life is the principles and focuses Jesus has put into us and taught us to follow. Everything is about seeing need, meeting, and serving others. This is love.
The dilemma with obedience, is not the reason to obeying, but is the obedience real. The cleansing power of obedience is asking why you cannot obey, repenting, stopping sin, and walking in righteousness. As a disciple you start with the simple stuff and work upwards. When people have the wisdom to see specks, then it is time to talk about attitudes approaches to life etc. 99% of christians are not even at this level, they find the basics too hard.
A traditional presentation is God is where hearts should be but self is evil and selfish. If God is making us into righteous, pure holy people, self is not evil, but outward caring and loving. What is on the throne of ones life is the principles and focuses Jesus has put into us and taught us to follow. Everything is about seeing need, meeting, and serving others. This is love.
The dilemma with obedience, is not the reason to obeying, but is the obedience real. The cleansing power of obedience is asking why you cannot obey, repenting, stopping sin, and walking in righteousness. As a disciple you start with the simple stuff and work upwards. When people have the wisdom to see specks, then it is time to talk about attitudes approaches to life etc. 99% of christians are not even at this level, they find the basics too hard.
A
If you want more, we have tons of threads about free will, Armenian versus Calvin theology....
It's not that I haven't or don't understand the theology behind total depravity or Original sin (which is tied to the idea but not quite the same).
It's just I don't really know what you want to discuss concerning it and I don't think it's key to hash it all out again.
I would rather focus on how does God help us become holy, righteous and perfect people.
But I can let you go and beat up the horse, some folks might join you.
Just don't assume that you two are the,only ones on the site who get a it, just cuz you can shout the,loudest today.
It's not that I haven't or don't understand the theology behind total depravity or Original sin (which is tied to the idea but not quite the same).
It's just I don't really know what you want to discuss concerning it and I don't think it's key to hash it all out again.
I would rather focus on how does God help us become holy, righteous and perfect people.
But I can let you go and beat up the horse, some folks might join you.
Just don't assume that you two are the,only ones on the site who get a it, just cuz you can shout the,loudest today.
E
Yes that was my question. Thanks for trying to answer it..
I asked what Gods view of love is,, Are you holding to the traditional view? I think it is much deeper than that, and that ony maybe scratches the surface, what do you think?
I will hold of responding to your paragraph about obedience, since I asked about love and want to get that issue settled first.
I asked what Gods view of love is,, Are you holding to the traditional view? I think it is much deeper than that, and that ony maybe scratches the surface, what do you think?
I will hold of responding to your paragraph about obedience, since I asked about love and want to get that issue settled first.
A
ok, I see it deeper than this.
I see it as we all have our gifts, And god has plans for all of us, Not everyone wil be an apostle. but each persons job is just as important.
No matter what Job we have, We can disqualify ourselves from being able to be used by God by just one sin. (imagine of paul came in the flesh and got caught in an adulterous affair with another mans wife,
It may have been a moment of time walking in the flesh, But his disqualification would have been for along time, if not permanent (he may never have regained peoples trust)
Thats the Way I always saw it anyway,, As usual, I could be wrong..lol or we both could be right
I see it as we all have our gifts, And god has plans for all of us, Not everyone wil be an apostle. but each persons job is just as important.
No matter what Job we have, We can disqualify ourselves from being able to be used by God by just one sin. (imagine of paul came in the flesh and got caught in an adulterous affair with another mans wife,
It may have been a moment of time walking in the flesh, But his disqualification would have been for along time, if not permanent (he may never have regained peoples trust)
Thats the Way I always saw it anyway,, As usual, I could be wrong..lol or we both could be right
E
Yes he can..
and yes they are. Thats why we need to take the focus of our self and what we do. And on God and what he can do..
and all things, whether in serving others, working inside our gifts, Maturing in Christ, Learning to change our sin habits, If God is not our primary focus We will not win any races..
and yes they are. Thats why we need to take the focus of our self and what we do. And on God and what he can do..
and all things, whether in serving others, working inside our gifts, Maturing in Christ, Learning to change our sin habits, If God is not our primary focus We will not win any races..
This is just too simplistic. The law just shows us the alien world of the heart of God.
Jesus shows in the cross the open door of love working in a human body.
You see Jesus as a free ticket to heaven and the law just as an exam you failed.
There are some very strong emotional issues here about how emotions lead us to behaviour that is sinful, which is bound up in who we are. If you become someone different, then the behaviour changes. Jesus is into behaviour change, and into changing our emotional frameworks.
And we do understand this concept and the one you are talking about.
You also miss-understood what I was saying.
I am always ignorant about how others are thinking, which is a human failing, but you bring me down to earth.
What I was saying is if you believe you can actually be righteous, pure and holy, not just taking Jesus's imputed status, you need to answer the question of total inability. You from your comments believe this is impossible.
So this is not silly, by a serious goal, which you are not commited to obviously. From our past communications you would also regard any beliefs in this direction as being evil, so already you have a bias. Never a good place to start.
Jesus shows in the cross the open door of love working in a human body.
You see Jesus as a free ticket to heaven and the law just as an exam you failed.
There are some very strong emotional issues here about how emotions lead us to behaviour that is sinful, which is bound up in who we are. If you become someone different, then the behaviour changes. Jesus is into behaviour change, and into changing our emotional frameworks.
And we do understand this concept and the one you are talking about.
You also miss-understood what I was saying.
I am always ignorant about how others are thinking, which is a human failing, but you bring me down to earth.
What I was saying is if you believe you can actually be righteous, pure and holy, not just taking Jesus's imputed status, you need to answer the question of total inability. You from your comments believe this is impossible.
So this is not silly, by a serious goal, which you are not commited to obviously. From our past communications you would also regard any beliefs in this direction as being evil, so already you have a bias. Never a good place to start.
Galatians 3:24-25
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
We are no longer under the law when we come to Christ by faith.
Why?
Because our work at it was a lack of understanding. Or rather, we twist it to think it can be fulfilled by our own carnal will and strength.
The law cannot be fulfilled by a carnal man. Because the law always was spiritual.
The next problem we have is that we can't cause our selves to be spiritual by an act of will and strength. We have to rely on the Lord Jesus Christ, by faith, to become spiritual.
When we rely on the Lord Jesus Christ we repent of our own "understanding" and turn to His Knowledge and Wisdom.
As soon as we turn to our own understanding of what we think the law says and begin working at it we have stopped relying on the Lord Jesus Christ and have abided in our own will and strength.
Inability is not that big of a deal. You can't do it. But Christ can. Have faith that He will guide you in the path of Righteousness.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Ezekiel 36:26-27
[SUP]26 [/SUP]A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
You can't do any of this. Only God can. It is all a blessing, His Gift. All you can do is attempt to emulate what you think is righteousness. But the bible says lean not unto your own understanding. Because Gods Thoughts are far higher than your thoughts, and His Ways are far higher than your ways.
Hebrews 7:16-19
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
I could go on and on about the Lord Jesus.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
We are no longer under the law when we come to Christ by faith.
Why?
Because our work at it was a lack of understanding. Or rather, we twist it to think it can be fulfilled by our own carnal will and strength.
The law cannot be fulfilled by a carnal man. Because the law always was spiritual.
The next problem we have is that we can't cause our selves to be spiritual by an act of will and strength. We have to rely on the Lord Jesus Christ, by faith, to become spiritual.
When we rely on the Lord Jesus Christ we repent of our own "understanding" and turn to His Knowledge and Wisdom.
As soon as we turn to our own understanding of what we think the law says and begin working at it we have stopped relying on the Lord Jesus Christ and have abided in our own will and strength.
Inability is not that big of a deal. You can't do it. But Christ can. Have faith that He will guide you in the path of Righteousness.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Ezekiel 36:26-27
[SUP]26 [/SUP]A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
You can't do any of this. Only God can. It is all a blessing, His Gift. All you can do is attempt to emulate what you think is righteousness. But the bible says lean not unto your own understanding. Because Gods Thoughts are far higher than your thoughts, and His Ways are far higher than your ways.
Hebrews 7:16-19
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
I could go on and on about the Lord Jesus.
I think to say that to walk in the flesh disqualifies you from the race needs some breathing room and I think that breathing room is mercy, forgiveness, and...trusting God that He will always do what is good concerning us.
If to walk in the flesh means immediate disqualification, no one would ever make the cut. All would be disqualified before breakfast time was over. BUT, His mercies begin anew each morning.
It takes SO much patience to raise up a child. How many times does a mother have to tell a toddler to stop throwing toys at the dog? Or to use their inside voice to a child? We wouldn't expect LESS patience from God. We would expect...infinitely MORE patience.
But a mother doesn't just let it all go until some future time. It almost seems this is what some people might think by the things they say.
Hence peter jens objections and struggle with some of the things he hears from people.
Is Gods goal simply that we all receive eternal life? And IF that is His main goal, why did Israel have it so hard with God demanding obedience to the law and we have it so easy, with no law at all?
If to walk in the flesh means immediate disqualification, no one would ever make the cut. All would be disqualified before breakfast time was over. BUT, His mercies begin anew each morning.
It takes SO much patience to raise up a child. How many times does a mother have to tell a toddler to stop throwing toys at the dog? Or to use their inside voice to a child? We wouldn't expect LESS patience from God. We would expect...infinitely MORE patience.
But a mother doesn't just let it all go until some future time. It almost seems this is what some people might think by the things they say.
Hence peter jens objections and struggle with some of the things he hears from people.
Is Gods goal simply that we all receive eternal life? And IF that is His main goal, why did Israel have it so hard with God demanding obedience to the law and we have it so easy, with no law at all?
I agree with two points here
1. Man without God will always sin
2. Man without God will always think the wrong things are good and bad
I also agree that emotional lostness is complete, and unless God breaks in we create for ourselves a self justifying existance.
But once God has broken in, and brought His love and Spirit things change.
The key question for me is what is behaviour and why is it focused one way or the other. Now I know after 30+ years walking with the Lord and learning His ways, and becoming a "mature" christian, which is always relative, I have many faults, I find my understanding of life and what I do and not do are very different than in my youth.
This therefore leads me to understand if ones theology is based on man alone you miss the promise of the Kingdom.
1. Man without God will always sin
2. Man without God will always think the wrong things are good and bad
I also agree that emotional lostness is complete, and unless God breaks in we create for ourselves a self justifying existance.
But once God has broken in, and brought His love and Spirit things change.
The key question for me is what is behaviour and why is it focused one way or the other. Now I know after 30+ years walking with the Lord and learning His ways, and becoming a "mature" christian, which is always relative, I have many faults, I find my understanding of life and what I do and not do are very different than in my youth.
This therefore leads me to understand if ones theology is based on man alone you miss the promise of the Kingdom.
Inherited sin nature has two real aspects
1. We are biological creatures limited by our DNA from our parents
2. We are born separate from God
There are two very important aspects of existance
1. Empathy
2. Options
Our brains have to construct what is happening in other people to understand them and have empathy. Without this we could never have a sense of relationships and oneness.
Our brains have to present to us a series of opportunities along with all the emotional paybacks involved. These options have no limit or filter, so can be truly evil or good, because the driving force is survival and optimising the benefits.
Again the fact we are driven and present with all these experiences and alternatives does not mean with a heart of love we cannot choose that which is righteous.
Now many would say Jesus says because the heart pollutes the soul, the heart cannot not be purified.
If you look closely Jesus is saying, purify the heart and then things will be seen correctly. It was the critism of the pharisees that they cleaned the cup but not the heart. To then take that to mean Jesus does not purify our hearts and consciencies is to believe defeat is the way of Christ.
1. We are biological creatures limited by our DNA from our parents
2. We are born separate from God
There are two very important aspects of existance
1. Empathy
2. Options
Our brains have to construct what is happening in other people to understand them and have empathy. Without this we could never have a sense of relationships and oneness.
Our brains have to present to us a series of opportunities along with all the emotional paybacks involved. These options have no limit or filter, so can be truly evil or good, because the driving force is survival and optimising the benefits.
Again the fact we are driven and present with all these experiences and alternatives does not mean with a heart of love we cannot choose that which is righteous.
Now many would say Jesus says because the heart pollutes the soul, the heart cannot not be purified.
If you look closely Jesus is saying, purify the heart and then things will be seen correctly. It was the critism of the pharisees that they cleaned the cup but not the heart. To then take that to mean Jesus does not purify our hearts and consciencies is to believe defeat is the way of Christ.
E
why do you seem to be afraid of everything you think is simple..
I ask of a genuine concern and wonder
Is it realy simple?
Maybe that makes it heard for that very reason. Because our flesh (pride) always gets in the way.
what you see as simple, I see proven every day is one of the hardest things we can ever do.
I think it is deeper than this, The law shows us, If you want to get to me your way, this is what I require (remember, He made moses demand thay, and everyone after, confirm that covenant, by agreeing to confirm and obey every last word completely. One slip up and they failed. The penalty for failing was a curse..
Paul said Christ on the cross removed that curse, Because everyone of us fell short of that standard.
Yes, Love,, The start of Gods type of love, Not mans kind.
I see it different, if you reject the ticket Jesus came to give you, Your left with the law as your only other option.
Yes, All based according to scripture on thankfulness and gratitude which is a response to Gods love.
Forgive me if I misunderstood you,
I pray I understand better next time, But know I may not always understand all people.. Which is why we should always be open to the fact we could be talking about something totally different that they asked..
In your context. No I do not. I can be blameless in a wicked world.. Paul says as much in his letters.
We just have to be careful who we say this too. Some people think they can be this, and this is why they are going to heaven, we must not let them think this is true, because this is them trusting in self. and will lead to a multitude of sin, and a prideful judgmental heart.
which is why I always say, we must figure out context of what others are saying..
I am going to end my respond here, Because I pray we continue this good hearted discussion, so will finish my reply in another post.
I am saddened I have to do this..
I ask of a genuine concern and wonder
Is it realy simple?
Maybe that makes it heard for that very reason. Because our flesh (pride) always gets in the way.
what you see as simple, I see proven every day is one of the hardest things we can ever do.
I think it is deeper than this, The law shows us, If you want to get to me your way, this is what I require (remember, He made moses demand thay, and everyone after, confirm that covenant, by agreeing to confirm and obey every last word completely. One slip up and they failed. The penalty for failing was a curse..
Paul said Christ on the cross removed that curse, Because everyone of us fell short of that standard.
Yes, Love,, The start of Gods type of love, Not mans kind.
I see it different, if you reject the ticket Jesus came to give you, Your left with the law as your only other option.
Yes, All based according to scripture on thankfulness and gratitude which is a response to Gods love.
Forgive me if I misunderstood you,
I pray I understand better next time, But know I may not always understand all people.. Which is why we should always be open to the fact we could be talking about something totally different that they asked..
In your context. No I do not. I can be blameless in a wicked world.. Paul says as much in his letters.
We just have to be careful who we say this too. Some people think they can be this, and this is why they are going to heaven, we must not let them think this is true, because this is them trusting in self. and will lead to a multitude of sin, and a prideful judgmental heart.
which is why I always say, we must figure out context of what others are saying..
I am going to end my respond here, Because I pray we continue this good hearted discussion, so will finish my reply in another post.
I am saddened I have to do this..
Last edited by a moderator:
Okay!
Ezekiel 21 - He tells the prophet to tell the people, I am against you and all of your sanctuaries. I am about to destroy all of you - the righteous along with the wicked. (my paraphrase).
What the heck?? This doesn't fit with Noah, Lot, or any other thing He has ever said!
Is there even one example of God destroying the righteous along with the wicked? We're talking DESTRUCTION - not just like telling His people if they went peacefully to bondage in Babylon they would be safe but if they refused they would die. This is total destruction of the righteous?
It's like He's saying, I don't care if you are righteous or not, you will be destroyed just like the wicked. Was He just having a bad day and He changed His mind later?
And could this tie in somehow to Him saying He was mad at all the priests because they were making no distinction at ALL between what was holy and what was not?
As to the verse in Rev, the 4 groups, my question is, could these 4 groups be placed alongside the 4 soils? And if they were, which groups are the same and how many of the groups produce fruit? It is only the last group.
Could those who do harm be the first soil,
those who are filthy be the second soil,
those who live righteously be the third soil,
and those who are holy be the fourth soil?
Ezekiel 21 - He tells the prophet to tell the people, I am against you and all of your sanctuaries. I am about to destroy all of you - the righteous along with the wicked. (my paraphrase).
What the heck?? This doesn't fit with Noah, Lot, or any other thing He has ever said!
Is there even one example of God destroying the righteous along with the wicked? We're talking DESTRUCTION - not just like telling His people if they went peacefully to bondage in Babylon they would be safe but if they refused they would die. This is total destruction of the righteous?
It's like He's saying, I don't care if you are righteous or not, you will be destroyed just like the wicked. Was He just having a bad day and He changed His mind later?
And could this tie in somehow to Him saying He was mad at all the priests because they were making no distinction at ALL between what was holy and what was not?
As to the verse in Rev, the 4 groups, my question is, could these 4 groups be placed alongside the 4 soils? And if they were, which groups are the same and how many of the groups produce fruit? It is only the last group.
Could those who do harm be the first soil,
those who are filthy be the second soil,
those who live righteously be the third soil,
and those who are holy be the fourth soil?
E
Okay!
Ezekiel 21 - He tells the prophet to tell the people, I am against you and all of your sanctuaries. I am about to destroy all of you - the righteous along with the wicked. (my paraphrase).
What the heck?? This doesn't fit with Noah, Lot, or any other thing He has ever said!
Is there even one example of God destroying the righteous along with the wicked? We're talking DESTRUCTION - not just like telling His people if they went peacefully to bondage in Babylon they would be safe but if they refused they would die. This is total destruction of the righteous?
It's like He's saying, I don't care if you are righteous or not, you will be destroyed just like the wicked. Was He just having a bad day and He changed His mind later?
And could this tie in somehow to Him saying He was mad at all the priests because they were making no distinction at ALL between what was holy and what was not?
As to the verse in Rev, the 4 groups, my question is, could these 4 groups be placed alongside the 4 soils? And if they were, which groups are the same and how many of the groups produce fruit? It is only the last group.
Could those who do harm be the first soil,
those who are filthy be the second soil,
those who live righteously be the third soil,
and those who are holy be the fourth soil?
Ezekiel 21 - He tells the prophet to tell the people, I am against you and all of your sanctuaries. I am about to destroy all of you - the righteous along with the wicked. (my paraphrase).
What the heck?? This doesn't fit with Noah, Lot, or any other thing He has ever said!
Is there even one example of God destroying the righteous along with the wicked? We're talking DESTRUCTION - not just like telling His people if they went peacefully to bondage in Babylon they would be safe but if they refused they would die. This is total destruction of the righteous?
It's like He's saying, I don't care if you are righteous or not, you will be destroyed just like the wicked. Was He just having a bad day and He changed His mind later?
And could this tie in somehow to Him saying He was mad at all the priests because they were making no distinction at ALL between what was holy and what was not?
As to the verse in Rev, the 4 groups, my question is, could these 4 groups be placed alongside the 4 soils? And if they were, which groups are the same and how many of the groups produce fruit? It is only the last group.
Could those who do harm be the first soil,
those who are filthy be the second soil,
those who live righteously be the third soil,
and those who are holy be the fourth soil?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]and say to the land of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord: “Behold, I am against you, and I will draw My sword out of its sheath and cut off both righteous and wicked from you. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Because I will cut off both righteous and wicked from you, therefore My sword shall go out of its sheath against all flesh from south to north,
Context is the land, God is going to cut off all people from the land (as he promised in lev 26 he would do if the nation did not obey God)
He finally did it completely in AD 70.
yet as promised, there has always been a remnant,, The righteous are still saved, They just lost their earthly blessing (a home) because of what their bretheren did (sin against God)
Have to research the rev question a little more.
It does not fit to me to say, I will destroy the righteous along with the wicked, means they would just be cut off from the land. It doesn't fit with the following verses either. A slaughter of all people? A massacre? Why would He not just say, "cut off from the land?"
And the context cannot be land when He says He will bring out His sword against all FLESH, can it...?
And the context cannot be land when He says He will bring out His sword against all FLESH, can it...?