Two useless/inappropriate/wrong accusations

[Stunnedbygrace]

This is something that has always confused me. How people believe differently on this issue. I was taught that salvation can be lost because of how we treat it. According to our works or deeds. That is what scares me because I can't seem to quit sinning no matter how hard I try. I just keep on failing. I don't want to sin and feel so guilty over it. I'm afraid that God will not keep forgiving me and I really can't even forgive myself.

Oh my goodness, you are my twin!! This was exactly how I felt. Exactly. I was so distressed over not being able to stop the wicked motions of my heart!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What is LoF grace, seriously have no clue what you are saying.

LoF = Lake of Fire..

 

[Demi777]

LoF = Lake of Fire..

Oh I thought you were talking about Meat Loaf. I guess I got that wrong hugs

 

[eph610]

Faith is not mental ascent.

That is your first issue, Faith is an assurance that God will do what he promised to do. Based on a truly repent tent heart.

Mere belief has never, and will never save anyone.

I never suggested or said faith was mental assent EG...we agree here

 

[Gr8grace]

What is LoF grace, seriously have no clue what you are saying.

Lake of Fire.

 

[eph610]

Unless salvation is by works, your left with no choice. Making the "after we are saved" work a requirement to be saved is no different than making it a :before we are saved" requirement. I.e., We are not officially saved until we die. And are resurrected.



No one will work out the conditional aspects of sanctification and righteousness according to Gods requirement (perfection) it is a work we will continue until the day we die. We will not meet Gods standard until we are riesen, and given our new bodies completely free of sin and the flesh.

so to answer your question. If meeting those conditions are required. No one will be saved.

Does your spirit meet God's perfection at conversion?

 

[BrokenSparrow]

Look to God, not yourself. You will never meet Gods standard. That is sinless perfection. No one ever has, only Christ. That's why you need, and will always need grace, Satan wants to judge you, and keep you focused on how sinful you are. God wants to save you,. Become your abba Father, and love you as any father can love a precious child.

A parent does not disown a child because the child is not perfect. Neither would God.

Thank you. That was encouraging. I wished that I could just forgive myself and let the grace of God work for me. I just feel unworthy when I look at other people, especially in church. They seem to have it all together and life seems easy for them. It really makes me feel unworthy when they testify and talk about how they do so many good things for God. I feel like I am always constantly just asking for forgiveness and I am probably nothing but a burden to God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Oh I thought you were talking about Meat Loaf. I guess I got that wrong hugs

Thanks

Back at you

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Does your spirit meet God's perfection at conversion?

At conversion, God reckoned me his righteousness. So in Gods eyes, I was in Christ, this Christ's righteousness was inputed on my behalf.

My spirit was born again, It, which was dead, was made alive to Christ.

I have not met Gods requirement, and I would be a fool to think I ever will. Only God is good..

 

[eph610]

Are you perfect?

If you answered no, You answered your own question,

the Corinthian church were called babes, not able to eat meat. Why7 had they not grown to where Paul said they should be? They were not totally surrendered. Yet Paul calls them children of God.

.

I really think we have crossed wires here...I am not a works based/conditional salvation believer....and I think that is me, you and gr8's disconnect.....

I have not nor ever contended that fruit was needed for salvation, if that came across it was not what i was implying...I am asking at what point after conversion do we see evidences of being totally surrendered to Jesus Christ, which is consecration...

I think we probably disagree on something and it is our spirit. Our spirit is made perfect and blameless at conversion, the daily tug of war is between the soul and the spirit...and whoever wins that war is who the flesh/body will follow...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I never suggested or said faith was mental assent EG...we agree here

I was just answering your comment to me..

This smells a lot like universalism to me....that everyone who mentally assents will be saved and he has to save them because it is his faith that saves not personal faith of the unbeliever...and if he did'nt he would be found a liar...so he has to...

I was trying to explain, No it is not universalism or mental ascent.

and I am glad we agree here

 

[eph610]

At conversion, God reckoned me his righteousness. So in Gods eyes, I was in Christ, this Christ's righteousness was inputed on my behalf.

My spirit was born again, It, which was dead, was made alive to Christ.

I have not met Gods requirement, and I would be a fool to think I ever will. Only God is good..

So you are just born again and your Spirit has not been made perfect...I totally agree our soul and flesh is not, nor will not, but you seem to imply our Spirits are not either

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I really think we have crossed wires here...I am not a works based/conditional salvation believer....and I think that is me, you and gr8's disconnect.....

I have not nor ever contended that fruit was needed for salvation, if that came across it was not what i was implying...I am asking at what point after conversion do we see evidences of being totally surrendered to Jesus Christ, which is consecration...

Which is why I mentioned the corinthian church, After years of being saved, had they yet shown fruit of being totally surrendered to Christ? I think we would both agree. No. That is why Paul still called them babes.

in other words, it is impossible to answer when a child will produce fruit proving he is totally surrendered.. and total surrender of every aspect of your life is not required to be saved, It takes people different times to give God different parts of their life. But no one has ever given God all (even if they say they have, they would be sinless if they did)

I think we probably disagree on something and it is our spirit. Our spirit is made perfect and blameless at conversion, the daily tug of war is between the soul and the spirit...and whoever wins that war is who the flesh/body will follow...

This I can agree with here, but I would not use that term of the spirit being made perfect.

The war is between the flesh and the spirit, never heard thre soul and spirit. Maybe that is the confusion.

I am perfected forever by one sacrifice, at the same time, I am being sanctified daily by Christ (Hebrews)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So you are just born again and your Spirit has not been made perfect...I totally agree our soul and flesh is not, nor will not, but you seem to imply our Spirits are not either

The bible never says my spirit was made perfect. It says I was made perfect. It said i was dead in trespasses and sins, yet I was made alive in Christ, and given his righteousness..

I would not read more in it than what the word says. That is what causes so much confusion,

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Thank you. That was encouraging. I wished that I could just forgive myself and let the grace of God work for me. I just feel unworthy when I look at other people, especially in church. They seem to have it all together and life seems easy for them. It really makes me feel unworthy when they testify and talk about how they do so many good things for God. I feel like I am always constantly just asking for forgiveness and I am probably nothing but a burden to God.

I don't know if what helped me will help you or not, but it might, so I'll tell you how I got past that repeating cycle of trying harder, failing, then depression, then back to trying harder.

I gave up on trying to be good. I went through that cycle for so many years and finally one day I said: it's impossible. I can't do it. If it's going to be done - if I am ever going to be good as I so desperately want to be, YOU will have to do something. And if you don't, I will just remain this way, because I am just wicked inside.

And I don't know why this is so, but after I just saw it was beyond my power to change and I said He would have to do it, I began to have great victories over my anger, depression, snottiness, etc.

Afterwards, I realized that I fully understood that being saved was only by trusting Him but what I had not understood was that being made more holy and good was ALSO only by trusting Him.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't know if what helped me will help you or not, but it might, so I'll tell you how I got past that repeating cycle of trying harder, failing, then depression, then back to trying harder.

I gave up on trying to be good. I went through that cycle for so many years and finally one day I said: it's impossible. I can't do it. If it's going to be done - if I am ever going to be good as I so desperately want to be, YOU will have to do something. And if you don't, I will just remain this way, because I am just wicked inside.

And I don't know why this is so, but after I just saw it was beyond my power to change and I said He would have to do it, I began to have great victories over my anger, depression, snottiness, etc.

Afterwards, I realized that I fully understood that being saved was only by trusting Him but what I had not understood was that being made more holy and good was ALSO only by trusting Him.

wisdom by experience, that is the best!

 

[Chester]

Grrr! I could almost be in such agreement with some of you until you use phrases like, let go of sin-consciousness or trust in His finished work. I have some sort of mental block where I cannot understand these phrases as you do and they even appear to be crazy to me. I have spent a long time trying to understand them as you do but I just can't. And the result is that I skip over the posts of those who use them because it's obvious that if I've put in so much time diligently applying myself while reading and still can't understand, then I'm just not going to. As soon as I see the phrases, I just stop reading. And if the phrases are repeated by one person every single time they post, I stop reading their posts altogether. And that is awful to me but I can't just keep reading the same exact phrase, always repeated the same exact way (and which I cannot comprehend) and not get so frustrated that I have to stop trying to understand for the sake of my sanity. Sorry. You don't have to reply - in fact, how could you? I just can't take the repeated phrases any more. You could repeat them 5,000 more times and I do not think I would be any closer to understanding them. I love you guys but I can not understand these phrases and you can't seem to use different words to explain and I start getting a spooky feeling about that.

Interesting - this is probably true for all of us to a certain extent - probably different phrases just get us spooked (or maybe angry, or reactive?)

For me - I am so sick and tired of seeing "hyper-grace" I can hardly read the threads anymore - like you I probably don't understand the term and really don't feel like finding out anymore!

What to do? Maybe honest and be OK with one another . . .

In glory, I hope I can sit down with you and hear your story from beginning to end - I am really curious why these phrases cause a reaction for you.

 

[eph610]

Which is why I mentioned the corinthian church, After years of being saved, had they yet shown fruit of being totally surrendered to Christ? I think we would both agree. No. That is why Paul still called them babes.

in other words, it is impossible to answer when a child will produce fruit proving he is totally surrendered.. and total surrender of every aspect of your life is not required to be saved, It takes people different times to give God different parts of their life. But no one has ever given God all (even if they say they have, they would be sinless if they did)




This I can agree with here, but I would not use that term of the spirit being made perfect.

The war is between the flesh and the spirit, never heard thre soul and spirit. Maybe that is the confusion.

I am perfected forever by one sacrifice, at the same time, I am being sanctified daily by Christ (Hebrews)

This is part of the disconnect and confussion. I view man as a 3 part being, Man is a Spirit who has a soul[mind, will, emotions, passions, intellect, etc] who lives in a body...The Spirit is made perfect at conversion and our Spirit wars with the Soul for control of the body[flesh]

We agree[are you reading gr8grace] that total surrender is not required for salvation, so sorry If I was confusing on that.

We may agree or disagree on this. After someone says they are saved and who NEVER has evidence they have surrendered any part of their life to Jesus, most likely was mental assenting to the message of Jesus, or expressed worldly sorrow and not godly sorrow that leads to salvation and not truly had a heartfelt repentance....

I am hoping our disconnect gets straightened out...

 

[eph610]

Grrr! I could almost be in such agreement with some of you until you use phrases like, let go of sin-consciousness or trust in His finished work. I have some sort of mental block where I cannot understand these phrases as you do and they even appear to be crazy to me. I have spent a long time trying to understand them as you do but I just can't. And the result is that I skip over the posts of those who use them because it's obvious that if I've put in so much time diligently applying myself while reading and still can't understand, then I'm just not going to. As soon as I see the phrases, I just stop reading. And if the phrases are repeated by one person every single time they post, I stop reading their posts altogether. And that is awful to me but I can't just keep reading the same exact phrase, always repeated the same exact way (and which I cannot comprehend) and not get so frustrated that I have to stop trying to understand for the sake of my sanity. Sorry. You don't have to reply - in fact, how could you? I just can't take the repeated phrases any more. You could repeat them 5,000 more times and I do not think I would be any closer to understanding them. I love you guys but I can not understand these phrases and you can't seem to use different words to explain and I start getting a spooky feeling about that.

Simply put, stop remembering things in your life God has already forgiven you for and then forgotten about....

 

[Chester]

1. You added to the word. Naughty Naughty

2. Just take him literally. Why try to add anything.

If we are faithless (we lack faith) he is faithful He can not deny himself (he promised eternal life to all who hear the word of truth, and call out to him to be saved, He will keep his word. even when we lose faith. because to take his gift back would be to deny his own word.

?????? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You tell MessageofTheCross not to add to the Word, then you do it!

Ha! I guess we all do it, don't we?