What is hyper grace........

[eternally-gratefull]

There is for me a simple point to be made here.

I am asking one focused question about a section of teaching from Christ.

I asked one simple question. Please show me a person who says a person will not be obedient to Gods commands after they are saved,

You responded to that question, and yet still have not answered me.

As for the sermon on the mount, I answered your question, By showing a child of God OBEYS Gods commands, WHich would include the sermon on the mount.

So please. Stop your rant, And please.

Answer my question (if you can not do that, then please say so. I will understand and have more respect)

 

[PeterJens]

first off. I asked you to name one person who teaches a child of God is not obedient to Gods commands (All of his commands, not just one set was inferred)

The answer to this question above is all of us.
We do not obey the dietry and ceremonial commands, or the ones relating to being an
Israelite convert. So implicit in all christian theology is a sense of reinterpretration and
dispensational positioning.

Even Abraham did not obey the Mosaic law, because it had not yet been given, and applied
to Israel and not Abraham.

Maybe this is beyond your ability to discuss, because it does not put me in a wrong or right
position, it just states the obvious.

And my point is mainly focused on Jesus's commands addressed to his disciples which extends
to us. Now if a believer cannot openly talk about these simple issues I wonder what type of
believer they are. Even a young convert should know these facts.

 

[Grandpa]

There is for me a simple point to be made here.

I am asking one focused question about a section of teaching from Christ.
The reason why it is important is because in general terms people will say I obey God,
but then deny which parts they are saying are applicable to them.

So I am interested in a simple answer to a simple question.
As I stated, I take the sermon on the mount as the cornerstone of Christs teaching so
of critical importance.

I have read dispensationalists take the Lords prayer and say it does not apply to
believers. So this particular piece of scripture becomes a telling point when trying to
understand peoples reference points.

There are two phrases that are problematic. Obeying the law until all is fulfilled and
being perfect as our Father is perfect. Now if we are to walk in openness these have to
be faced. But it appears some do not want to be.

What, exactly, is your question?

I'm not meaning to be facetious, I really don't see a question in there...

 

[PeterJens]

So please. Stop your rant, And please.

EG - this does not help your position or communication. You do know what communication is?
It appears for you it is just trying to put someone off and make yourself appear on the right side
of the argument even when wrong or the argument is somewhere else. Not very convincing...

 

[PeterJens]

What, exactly, is your question?

I'm not meaning to be facetious, I really don't see a question in there...

The question is simply does the sermon on the mount apply to believers, gentile
and jew alike?

Traditional christian faith says yes, HG says no.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG - this does not help your position or communication. You do know what communication is?
It appears for you it is just trying to put someone off and make yourself appear on the right side
of the argument even when wrong or the argument is somewhere else. Not very convincing...

Yes I do know what communication is.

It is 2 way communication. Which is something you seem not to understand how to do.

when you have a 1 way conversation, it is called a rant. Do you want to continue to do that, or would you like to communicate?

if you want to communicate, then please. STOP YOUR RANT, and ANSWER MY QUESTION.

 

[Willie-T]

The question is simply does the sermon on the mount apply to believers, gentile
and jew alike?

Traditional christian faith says yes, HG says no.

You keep on saying "HG says".... "HG says".... "HG says." Could you post this official "Statement of Faith" of this supposed HG denomination you quote (or 'fail to quote') incessantly? You seem to have some inside information the rest of us have never seen.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The answer to this question above is all of us.
We do not obey the dietry and ceremonial commands, or the ones relating to being an
Israelite convert. So implicit in all christian theology is a sense of reinterpretration and
dispensational positioning.

Even Abraham did not obey the Mosaic law, because it had not yet been given, and applied
to Israel and not Abraham.

Maybe this is beyond your ability to discuss, because it does not put me in a wrong or right
position, it just states the obvious.

And my point is mainly focused on Jesus's commands addressed to his disciples which extends
to us. Now if a believer cannot openly talk about these simple issues I wonder what type of
believer they are. Even a young convert should know these facts.

see Peter. Here we are with a RANT again.

I asked you to name a person who says a child of God is not obedient (an accusation yourself and others repeatedly make)

and you can not answer my question with the names of people who teach this, Instead you go off on a little rant about things which do not even have anything to do with the question I asked.

Again I ask, You can you answer my question or not?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You keep on saying "HG says".... "HG says".... "HG says." Could you post this official "Statement of Faith" of this supposed HG denomination you quote (or 'fail to quote') incessantly? You seem to have some inside information the rest of us have never seen.

seems he does not like it when you ask him specific questions. Maybe he will answer yours? I would love it..

 

[PeterJens]

But, you can't. You don't. And you never will. None of us can, do, or will.

If I will never be like Christ, then I will never have salvation.

This is why your position is a denial of the gospel and of the apostles teaching.

 

[PeterJens]

You keep on saying "HG says".... "HG says".... "HG says." Could you post this official "Statement of Faith" of this supposed HG denomination you quote (or 'fail to quote') incessantly? You seem to have some inside information the rest of us have never seen.

Willie - I wrote a blog post covering the points HG believed in gathered from their
preachers and web sites. So it is a fair approximation of this theological position.
We have discussed this particular subject for months and is extensively documented
on cc.

For me I am always interested in identifying where people are and answering the why.

 

[Depleted]

That is QUITE an accusation. Please tell me what my personal desires are that I am "patch-quilting Scripture to fit" since you know me so well.

http://christianchat.com/search.php?searchid=2203128

 

[Willie-T]

If I will never be like Christ, then I will never have salvation.

This is why your position is a denial of the gospel and of the apostles teaching.

Good grief. Now he is saying he is going to earn his Salvation by matching the life of Jesus.

The best I can do is be grateful that Christ accepts me even though I fall WAY short of being like Him.

 

[PeterJens]

see Peter. Here we are with a RANT again.

I asked you to name a person who says a child of God is not obedient (an accusation yourself and others repeatedly make)

and you can not answer my question with the names of people who teach this, Instead you go off on a little rant about things which do not even have anything to do with the question I asked.

Again I ask, You can you answer my question or not?

You have not read my response.

All of us are not obedient to all of Gods commands, because some are specific to a situation
and some not.

Maybe you are asking a different question to which this is not the answer.
If you feel you are asking a different question, can you elaborate?

 

[PennEd]

i believe number 2 fits here.

Are you so foolish, having begun in the spirit, are you now being perfected in the flesh..

I do not believe they had true faith in Christ, If they had faith in Christ, they would not keep trying to work to earn his salvation (or keep it)

Now I do believe satan can put doubt in our minds, and we can struggle with believing we are truly saved, But that to me is not the same. and I would agree with you there.

Yes. I see the distinction you are making and I think it's a valid one, but the verse you posted kinda makes my point. If they began in the Spirit, then they have the Spirit. Paul is telling them that they are foolish for trying to perfect themselves in the flesh, not that they are unsaved.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If I will never be like Christ, then I will never have salvation.

This is why your position is a denial of the gospel and of the apostles teaching.

How can you ever be perfect. And THINK you are ANYTHING even close to being like Christ?

I can be Christ like. But I WILL NEVER be like him..

by saying you think you can even be like him, and this is required to be saved, can only make me understand you do not know Who and WHAT Christ is, or his character (righteousness)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes. I see the distinction you are making and I think it's a valid one, but the verse you posted kinda makes my point. If they began in the Spirit, then they have the Spirit. Paul is telling them that they are foolish for trying to perfect themselves in the flesh, not that they are unsaved.

I see what your saying, i see what paul said differently

I think paul is trying to tell the they are foolish for saying we are saved by the spirit, but perfect that salvation by the flesh.

I will agree, If anyone has the spirit of God, they are gods children, and always will be.

 

[PeterJens]

Good grief. Now he is saying he is going to earn his Salvation by matching the life of Jesus.

The best I can do is be grateful that Christ accepts me even though I fall WAY short of being like Him.

Willie - this is not an honest answer. I am saying Jesus is openning the door to communion
with Him and the road to becoming like Christ.

Maybe you do not believe this is the walk or the goal, to become like Christ.

This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus.
1 John 4:17

To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy
Jude 1:24

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You have not read my response.

All of us are not obedient to all of Gods commands, because some are specific to a situation
and some not.

Maybe you are asking a different question to which this is not the answer.
If you feel you are asking a different question, can you elaborate?

You need to be more clear. How can anyone understand what you believe.

You made an accusation that people (namely HG) believes you can be gods children and not be obedient,

I asked you to name one person if you can.

You have yet to name one person. And here you just admitted, no one can be obedient to all of Gods commands.. So you teach the very thing you condem others of teaching, So which is it?

 

[gb9]

How can you ever be perfect. And THINK you are ANYTHING even close to being like Christ?

I can be Christ like. But I WILL NEVER be like him..

by saying you think you can even be like him, and this is required to be saved, can only make me understand you do not know Who and WHAT Christ is, or his character (righteousness)

they are so many verses we could post, but they do not care about verses, they just want to attack grace. but, just in case someone is interested, Titus 2 11-15 and 3 1-7 sum up grace-faith works very nicely.