Who Justifieth the Ungodly

[reneweddaybyday]

renewed on Acts 15:18

The verse does not support your claim that justification before God occurs before "those Christ died for" (which wouldl be all mankind – John 1:29, John 3:16-17, 1 John 2:2) "ever believe a thing".

Sure it does since Justification before God is a Work of God ! Rom 8:33,34

Why jump from Acts 15:18 to Romans 8? This is just another example of you lifting verses from the context within which the Author of Scripture has placed them in order to prop up a dogma never intended by the Author ...


Acts 15 tells us about the council at Jerusalem after there was no small dissension and disputation (Acts 15:2).


Paul and Barnabas were ministers to the gentiles. They faithfully taught the gospel of Christ to the gentiles. However, some men came down from Judaea and taught that the gentiles could not be saved except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses (Acts 15:1).

The apostles and elders came together for to consider this matter (Acts 15:6).

After there had been much disputing, Peter stood up and spoke (Acts 15:7-11); then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul (Acts 15:12).


Then James answered with the verse you quoted (out of context to support your erroneous dogma).

Acts 15:

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.


From Clarke's Commentary:

Known unto God are all his works from the beginning - As if he had said, This is not a new counsel of God: he had purposed, from the time he called the Israelites, to make the Gentiles partakers of the same grace and mercy; and ultimately to destroy those rites and ceremonies which separated them from each other.​

For you to misconstrue Acts 15:18 to indicate that God justifies anyone "before [they] ever believe" is improper interpretation of Scripture. Read the verse within the context ... do not rip a verse from its context to support erroneous dogma. Bring your dogma into alignment with Scripture. Do not attempt to align Scripture to your error.
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[reneweddaybyday]

renewed false statement

The will of God is that mankind is justified by faith:

Thats false, nowhere is that stated.

God's Word plainly states that man is justified by faith.

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.


And for bonus reading, check out Hebrews 11 where we read about the great cloud of witnesses who lived before Messiah came ...

By faith Abel
By faith Enoch
By faith Noah
By faith Abraham
Through faith Sara
By faith Isaac
By faith Jacob
By faith Joseph
By faith Moses
By faith Rahab
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[reneweddaybyday]

I dont think you understand. Explain to me what you understand me saying then ?

nope. It's much better for you to read the Scriptures which expose your erroneous dogma. It's Scripture you need to hear ... much better than me repeating to you vain imaginations which do not align with Scripture.
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[reneweddaybyday]

So addressing Matt 25 is an rabbit trail

... that's your standard response concerning all Scripture which exposes your faulty dogma ...

Reading Scripture is not following "an rabbit trail". Scripture reveals the path so we do not stray onto "an rabbit trail".


Psalm 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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[brightfame52]

nope. It's much better for you to read the Scriptures which expose your erroneous dogma. It's Scripture you need to hear ... much better than me repeating to you vain imaginations which do not align with Scripture.
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You confirm what I said then !

 

[brightfame52]

... that's your standard response concerning all Scripture which exposes your faulty dogma ...

Reading Scripture is not following "an rabbit trail". Scripture reveals the path so we do not stray onto "an rabbit trail".


Psalm 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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Matt 25 has absolutely nothing to do with Pauls epistle to the Church at Rome, them that had been called and called Saints.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Why is it arrogance ?

wow ... such arrogance ... claiming to know what only God knows ...

and more rationalization for your bad behavior.

move along ...

The text is red explains your arrogance.

move along ...
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[reneweddaybyday]

the world Christ died for cannot be condemned!

mm hmmm ... and God does not need to create a new heavens and new earth ... because according to your erroneous dogma the world in which we now live "cannot be condemned"???

Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
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[brightfame52]

The text is red explains your arrogance.

move along ...
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I never claimed that. I know what I see of your posts. You make the post for people to read, correct ? Your post reveal that you believe that people Christ died for, shall die in their sins. Its pride not to admit that !

 

[brightfame52]

Secured us from wrath !

Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Justification by the blood of Christ, has secured from Divine wrath, all for whom Christ died. This security from the wrath of God has nothing to do with mans faith, or repentance, but it is solely an accomplisment of the Blood of Christ; All for He died have been delivered from the wrath to come at the day of Judgment 1 Thess 1:10

10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Job 21:30

30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.

Rev 6:17

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 11:18

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Back up in 1 Thess 1:10 it reads with the definite article" The Wrath" its the Last Day of wrath commencing Judgement Day ! All for whom Christ died has been delivered from this wrath ! 11

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Again all men don't have faith 2 Thess 3:2 !

I have responded to your misinterpretation of 2 Thess 3:2. The verse is speaking of the faith ... the Christian faith.


2 Thessalonians 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

Here is the verse in the Greek:

SBL Greek New Testament 2010
καὶ ἵνα ῥυσθῶμεν ἀπὸ τῶν ἀτόπων καὶ πονηρῶν ἀνθρώπων, οὐ γὰρ πάντων ἡ πίστις.

Nestle Greek New Testament 1904
καὶ ἵνα ῥυσθῶμεν ἀπὸ τῶν ἀτόπων καὶ πονηρῶν ἀνθρώπων· οὐ γὰρ πάντων ἡ πίστις.

Westcott and Hort 1881
καὶ ἵνα ῥυσθῶμεν ἀπὸ τῶν ἀτόπων καὶ πονηρῶν ἀνθρώπων, οὐ γὰρ πάντων ἡ πίστις.

Westcott and Hort / [NA27 variants]
καὶ ἵνα ῥυσθῶμεν ἀπὸ τῶν ἀτόπων καὶ πονηρῶν ἀνθρώπων, οὐ γὰρ πάντων ἡ πίστις.

RP Byzantine Majority Text 2005
καὶ ἵνα ῥυσθῶμεν ἀπὸ τῶν ἀτόπων καὶ πονηρῶν ἀνθρώπων· οὐ γὰρ πάντων ἡ πίστις.

Greek Orthodox Church 1904
καὶ ἵνα ῥυσθῶμεν ἀπὸ τῶν ἀτόπων καὶ πονηρῶν ἀνθρώπων· οὐ γὰρ πάντων ἡ πίστις.

Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894
καὶ ἵνα ῥυσθῶμεν ἀπὸ τῶν ἀτόπων καὶ πονηρῶν ἀνθρώπων· οὐ γὰρ πάντων ἡ πίστις.

Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550
καὶ ἵνα ῥυσθῶμεν ἀπὸ τῶν ἀτόπων καὶ πονηρῶν ἀνθρώπων· οὐ γὰρ πάντων ἡ πίστις


See the word ἡ ?

That is the definite article "the".


The ISV correctly renders 2 Thess 3:2 as Also pray that we may be rescued from worthless and evil people, since not everyone holds to the faith.


The verse states that there are unreasonable and wicked men who are not of the faith ... the Christian faith. There are some of other faiths who are unreasonable and wicked men.
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[reneweddaybyday]

A person is justified by the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ when he/she believes:

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it [Abraham's faith] was counted unto him for righteousness.

Romans 4:20-24 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform. And therefore it [Abraham's faith] was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness] was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead

That's error a person is Justified by the blood of Christ at the Cross of Christ.

Believing Scripture is not "error".

Align your dogma to Scripture ... do not attempt to align Scripture to your dogma. Whatever does not align with Scripture, let it go.


1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
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[reneweddaybyday]

You confirm what I said then !

nope. I respond to your erroneous dogma by providing Scripture which shines a light on the error in your interpretation of Scripture. You prefer to hold to your error rather than to align your beliefs with Scripture ... and God allows you to hold to your error. Doesn't mean He likes it when we turn from Him ... just means He allows it.
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[reneweddaybyday]

Matt 25 has absolutely nothing to do with Pauls epistle to the Church at Rome, them that had been called and called Saints.

Actually Matthew 25:14-30 would be a great section of Scripture for you to read and understand:

Matthew 25:

14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.

17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.

18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.

19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.

20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.

21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.

23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:

25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.



Each servant had received from the lord of the servants and each servant utilized what he had been given as he saw fit.


The servants who had gained advantage with what he had been given were rewarded and entered into the joy of the lord.


The one who did nothing with what he had received was cast into outer darkness.


God does not withhold anything from mankind in order for mankind to respond to Him when He reaches out to us. When God reaches out, there are some who reject Him ... not because they do not have faith to believe ... but because they suppress the truth in unrighteousness ... just as we are shown in Romans 1:18-20. They are without excuse because they have been given all that is needed to believe the gospel of Christ, but they turn from the gospel to their own surmisings (man's wisdom) ... thereby suppressing the truth in unrighteousness.
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[reneweddaybyday]

wow ... such arrogance ... claiming to know what only God knows

I never claimed that.

yes, brightfame52, you do claim to know what only God knows because you claim to know what is in my heart ... and only God knows what is in my heart.

now ... please just move along. This line of discussion within this thread should have ended at Post #1375, but it has continued through this post.

Post #1387​

Post #1403​

Post #1417​

Post #1441​

Post #1447​

Post #1463​

Post #1474​

Post #1479​

Post #1493​

Post #1507​

Post #1509​

In Post #1441, I told you to move along and quit accusing believers ... yet rather than move along, you have continued to rationalize your bad behavior.

Now, will you please just move along? Thank you.
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[reneweddaybyday]

All for He died have been delivered from the wrath to come

The Lord Jesus Christ died for all mankind, the world, the whole world:


John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.


John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

This security from the wrath of God has nothing to do with mans faith, or repentance

According to Scripture, the above statement is not true ...

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;


Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:


You can deny all you want ... your denial of Scripture does not affect the truth of Scripture. Your denial only affects you in your relationship with God.

Job 21:30

30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.

You know what else God says about the wicked?

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways ...

The Wrath" its the Last Day of wrath commencing Judgement Day !

The wrath does not commence on judgment day.


Revelation 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Keep reading through Rev 15, Rev 16, Rev 17, Rev 18.


Judgment day is when those who restrained the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18) during their lifetime are judged for having turned from God because they believed the lies of the adversary.
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[brightfame52]

One People promised to be Justified in Christ !

Isa 45:25

25 In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

Justification in Christ the LORD was only promised to one particular people, Israel or the Seed of Israel !

These verses all apply to the Seed of Israel !

Rom 3:24

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus [The Lord]:

Rom 5:1

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Rom 5:9

Much more then, being now justified by his blood[The Lord], we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Rom 8:30

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

This is the Seed of Israel. Paul calls them a Seed here Rom 4:16

Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

What Seed ? What Promise ? This Seed and Promise Isa 45:25

In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

I have responded to your misinterpretation of 2 Thess 3:2. The verse is speaking of the faith ... the Christian faith.

Erroneously, still only some men are given faith, not all as Paul stated here 2 Thess 3:2

And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

Even some commentators agree with me or I with them :

for all men have not faith: no man has faith of himself, it is the gift of God, and the operation of his Spirit; and it is only given to the elect of God, who are ordained unto eternal life, and therefore it is called the faith of God's elect; all mankind have it not, none but Christ's sheep; and the reason why others have it not is, because they are not of his sheep. This is a truth; but rather the true sense of the words is, that all that are professors of religion, and members of churches, and even all that are preachers of the word, have not faith. They may have an historical and temporary faith and the faith of miracles, and even all faith but the true faith; they may profess to believe, and yet not believe, as Simon Magus, and his followers seem to be intended here; for this is given as a reason why the apostle desired to be delivered from the above men. The Jews say (o), that

Jn Gill

for all men have not faith] Or, not to all does the faith belong. There are those, alas, with “no part nor lot in the matter” (Acts 8:21). The Apostle puts his meaning in a pathetically veiled and softened way (see note on “not pleasing,” 1 Thessalonians 2:15). “It is not all who share our faith: many are its enemies, and bear us on its account a deadly hatred. Will you pray that we may be delivered from their power?” Their unbelief in Christ made the Corinthian opposers “perverse and evil.” Not being for Him, they came to be furiously against Him (Matthew 12:30). This is enough, in the Apostle’s view, to explain their conduct; comp. 2 Thessalonians 3:10, “they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.”

https://biblehub.com/commentaries/cambridge/2_thessalonians/3.htm

Also it doesnt matter if the Apostle used the definite article before Faith, either way, Faith is limited to only some. The Faith of Gods Elect Titus 1:1

Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

Faith of Gods elect will acknowledge the Truth, which is the Doctrine of the Faith. The Truth has the definite article because there is only one Truth/Faith, and its acknowledged by the Elect.

All men of course are Gods elect, so all men have not been given Faith to acknowledge the Faith !

 

[brightfame52]

renew

Believing Scripture is not "error".

Thats True, but when you dont believe it, it is ! I have been testifying unto you with scripture that the people Christ died for, are by His Death, Justified before God, yet you dont believe it. Isa 53:11

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

According to this scripture, what is the outcome of this servant bearing the iniquities of many ?

How are these said to be Justified here in Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I have responded to your misinterpretation of 2 Thess 3:2. The verse is speaking of the faith ... the Christian faith.

Erroneously

nope. It is not "erroneous" to clarify that the word "the" in 2 Thess 3:3 appears in the text.

What is "erroneous" is for you to not acknowledge that Scripture was changed and then argue that it's erroneous for me to point that fact out to you.

Jn Gill

John Gill (23 November 1697 – 14 October 1771) was an English Baptist pastor, biblical scholar, and theologian who held to a firm Calvinistic soteriology.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Gill_(theologian

“It is not all who share our faith: many are its enemies, and bear us on its account a deadly hatred. Will you pray that we may be delivered from their power?”

Exactly ... that's what I've been telling you.

Also it doesnt matter if the Apostle used the definite article before Faith

r–i–g–h–t ... it doesn't matter to you when words are removed from Scripture ... it's so much more important for you to align Scripture to your erroneous dogma.

Eve did the same thing back in Eden in Gen 3 ... look where it got her ... and all mankind.

Change a word here ... change a word there ... eh ... it's just Scripture ... doesn't matter.


GO PEDDLE THAT FLIM-FLAM ELSEWHERE.


Psalm 12:6-7 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
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