Who Justifieth the Ungodly

[brightfame52]

renewed

Not true, brightfame52. Unbelievers "do and can believe !"

The only unbeliever that can believe and will believe is one that has been born again . Once an individual is born of the Spirit then they have spiritual ears to hear spiritually. Thats why its written Rev 2:7


He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

The Gospel is the voice of Christ and its Spirit Jn 6:63


It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

The born again one believes the truth of the gospel

Thats True, but you dont have to be born again to be Justified before God, the persons Jesus died for, His Sheep only, Gods elect, Are Justified before God even while they are unregenerate, God hating enemies and unbelievers.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

The issue is not that natural man can't believe. The issue is that they believe lies.

It is the issue, the natural man unbeliever cant believe the Truth so they believe lies, to believe a lie is to remain in unbelief.

But the person who Christ died, has been Justified by His Blood, so eventually they will be given the New Birth and the Gift of Faith to believe the Truth. But their Justification before God by the Blood of Christ existed way before they were born again and believed, in fact thats why they were born again inorder to believe.

 

[VARob]

The only unbeliever that can believe and will believe is one that has been born again . Once an individual is born of the Spirit then they have spiritual ears to hear spiritually. Thats why its written Rev 2:7

This is false. People do not become born again until they hear the gospel and decide to believe it (Eph 1:13).

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Not true, brightfame52. Unbelievers "do and can believe !"

The only unbeliever that can believe and will believe is one that has been born again.

Unbelievers can believe ... the muslim believes in allah with the same faith the born again one believes in the Lord Jesus Christ.

It is the Object of our faith which determines our salvation. When a person believes a lie, salvation does not occur. In the case of the muslim, allah cannot save him/her.

I know your dogma will not allow you to believe that. God is just going to have to work in your heart to help you rid yourself of error.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

The born again one believes the truth of the gospel

... Justified before God even while they are unregenerate, God hating enemies and unbelievers.

Not according to Romans 4:24

Romans 4:24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead


The words "shall be imputed" are translated from the Greek word mellō. And please note, the verb is in the present tense and it is in the indicative mood, which means it denotes present time (i.e. at the time the person believes).

If the righteousness was imputed "even while they are unregenerate, God hating enemies and unbelievers", the verb would be in the perfect or pluperfect tense

 

[reneweddaybyday]

The issue is not that natural man can't believe. The issue is that they believe lies

It is the issue, the natural man unbeliever cant believe the Truth so they believe lies, to believe a lie is to remain in unbelief.

The lie is believed with the same faith a person believes truth.

Matthew 13:58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

The word "unbelief" is translated from the Greek word apistia which means "withholding belief".

It wasn't that they couldn't believe. It was that they withheld belief. The same truth is revealed in Romans 1:18 where God tells us men restrain the truth in unrighteousness.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold [Greek katechō] the truth in unrighteousness;

The words "who hold" are translated from the Greek word katechō which means to suppress, restrain.

God does not withhold anything from those who suppress. Those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness reject God. They are without excuse (Rom 1:20).

so eventually they will be given the New Birth and the Gift of Faith to believe the Truth.

To be "given the New Birth" is to be born again. So you're saying they will be born again in order to believe the Truth and be born again.

You're also saying they will be given "the Gift of Faith" which, according to you is the fruit of the Spirit. A person does not exhibit fruit of the Spirit until he/she is born again of Holy Spirit. So, again, you're saying they will be born again in order to believe the Truth and be born again.

Your erroneous dogma does not stand when the light of God's Word shines upon it. Your foundation crumbles under the slightest scrutiny.

Align your dogma to Scripture. Do not attempt to align Scripture to your dogma.


2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ
.

 

[brightfame52]

All that believe are or have been Justified ! 2

Again, the point being made here is that only those already Justified believe as an evidence of the fact !

Now the word Justified in Rom 3:24

Being justified freely [without conditions by us] by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Its the greek word dikaioō:

I.
to render righteous or such he ought to be

II.
to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered

III.
to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

As we can see, one of its fundamental meanings is to render Righteous, to regard as Righteous, so its very appropriate to translate the verse as follows Rom 3:24

Being made Righteous freely by his grace through dia[because of] the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Yes, by that fact alone, not because of their Faith, or Repentance, or Calling on the Name of the Lord, but solely and completely by His Blood. Now understand, all such ones, shall have their Free Gift of Righteousness and acquittal made known to them, or revealed to them, by a Powerful persuasion of the Gospel as the Power of God in the Hand of the Spirit, by this powerful persuasion they do believe, and so it is, all that come to believe by the Power of the Gospel, had been Justifed from all things, and of course all who never come to believe by Spiritual persuasion, its simply because they were not of the Sheepfold Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

And so they never had the Right to believe, nor the ability Jn 12:37-39

37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:

38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

And they were never Justified from all things !


12

 

[brightfame52]

ahhh-hahahahahahaha!!!

Here's what I submitted in Post #1333 over a month ago ...

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.​

​

it is not faith that saves. It is the OBJECT of faith Who saves ... the on Him that justifieth the ungodly is Who saves. Him that justifieth the ungodly imputes righteousness on those who believe when they believe ... not before they believe.​

.

There you again, you condition Justification before God, you base it upon when a sinner believes, that Justification by works. The scripture and I agree condition the sinners Justification before God on the Blood of Christ before they believe.

 

[brightfame52]

No you don't. you rip single verses from their context and then go off on an erroneous dogmatic tangent in your attempt to align Scripture to your dogma.

Then when I submit a post with the full context within which the verse sits, you claim "evasion" and/or "rabbit trail", and refuse to consider the context.

I've even explained to you the difference between eisegesis (your approach to studying Scripture) and exegesis (the proper approach to studying Scripture):

Exegesis and eisegesis are two conflicting approaches in Bible study. Exegesis is the exposition or explanation of a text based on a careful, objective analysis. The word exegesis literally means “to lead out of.” That means that the interpreter is led to his conclusions by following the text.​

​

The opposite approach to Scripture is eisegesis, which is the interpretation of a passage based on a subjective, non-analytical reading. The word eisegesis literally means “to lead into,” which means the interpreter injects his own ideas into the text, making it mean whatever he wants.​

​

Obviously, only exegesis does justice to the text. Eisegesis is a mishandling of the text and often leads to a misinterpretation. Exegesis is concerned with discovering the true meaning of the text, respecting its grammar, syntax, and setting. Eisegesis is concerned only with making a point, even at the expense of the meaning of words.​

https://www.gotquestions.org/exegesis-eisegesis.html​

.

Yes I do. I all the time show you a scripture that is found within a given context, and you immediately reject it and claim Im ripping it out of its context. Which is a lie, Im merely highlighting a truth found in the context. You do this all the time because you condition Justification before God on what man does, works !

 

[brightfame52]

r-i-g-h-t ... we don't need the full context of the verse when you peddle your erroneous dogma ... sneaky sneaky

All who have posted on this thread know why you do not like immediate context ... and now, apparently, remoter context ... all because when the light of God's Word shines on your dogma, your error is exposed.
.

The Truth is found within the context, it doesnt matter if its at beginning of the context, in the middle of it, at the end of it. Each verse contains Truth and shouldn't be discarded because it doesnt fit ones traditions ! If things were the way you say, not even the Apostles could have borrowed scriptures from the Old Testament to make New Testament points. All you doing is giving yourself an excuse not to believe the Truth.

 

[brightfame52]

context context context

Romans 4:

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ


Romans 4:25 is sandwiched between two verses which make clear God's perspective on faith/believing.


It is a fact that the Lord Jesus Christ is the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. That is truth even if some do not believe.

It is not a fact that those who are "pronounced Righteous before God" are made righteous "before they believe a thing"

God makes clear the error of your dogma.
.

There you again, avoiding a truth clearly stated within a context. According to Rom 4:25 why was Jesus risen again ?25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

 

[brightfame52]

This is false. People do not become born again until they hear the gospel and decide to believe it (Eph 1:13).

Eph 1:13 agrees with me. Its about regenerated unbelievers who hear spiritually the word of Truth, the Gospel of their Salvation. They are saved spiritually before they believe, else how could it the Gospel of their [possesive] Salvation. In other words it was their Salvation, they possessed it before they believed. Also they had to be born of God to Hear the word of Truth. Jesus says its those who are God that hears Spiritually Gods words Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

What you are doing is giving the flesh spiritual credit and ability !

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

Unbelievers can believe ...

Not just any unbelievers, but elect Justified born again unbelievers who have yet to hear the Gospel.

 

[brightfame52]

renew

It is the Object of our faith which determines our salvation. When a person believes a lie, salvation does not occur.

I agree, just like if a person believes God loves everyone and Christ died for everyone, thats believing a lie. To deny that a sinner whom Christ died, is not Justified by Christs death, means Christ isnt the object of their Faith, but their act of believing is, thats also believing a lie friend.

 

[brightfame52]

Not according to Romans 4:24

Romans 4:24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead


The words "shall be imputed" are translated from the Greek word mellō. And please note, the verb is in the present tense and it is in the indicative mood, which means it denotes present time (i.e. at the time the person believes).

If the righteousness was imputed "even while they are unregenerate, God hating enemies and unbelievers", the verb would be in the perfect or pluperfect tense

Yeah, thats why scripture says that we were reconciled/justified, to God by Christs death while we are enemies/unbelievers. Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

According to Rom 5:10 when were the believers reconciled to God and how ?

 

[brightfame52]

The lie is believed with the same faith a person believes truth.

Matthew 13:58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

The word "unbelief" is translated from the Greek word apistia which means "withholding belief".

It wasn't that they couldn't believe. It was that they withheld belief. The same truth is revealed in Romans 1:18 where God tells us men restrain the truth in unrighteousness.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold [Greek katechō] the truth in unrighteousness;

The words "who hold" are translated from the Greek word katechō which means to suppress, restrain.

God does not withhold anything from those who suppress. Those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness reject God. They are without excuse (Rom 1:20).





To be "given the New Birth" is to be born again. So you're saying they will be born again in order to believe the Truth and be born again.

You're also saying they will be given "the Gift of Faith" which, according to you is the fruit of the Spirit. A person does not exhibit fruit of the Spirit until he/she is born again of Holy Spirit. So, again, you're saying they will be born again in order to believe the Truth and be born again.

Your erroneous dogma does not stand when the light of God's Word shines upon it. Your foundation crumbles under the slightest scrutiny.

Align your dogma to Scripture. Do not attempt to align Scripture to your dogma.


2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ
.

The natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God, nor can he know/understand them, since they are spiritually judged 1 Cor 2:13-14

13 Which things also we speak[The Gospel], not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The unregenerate sinner doesnt have the spiritual capacity to spiritually believe the Gospel nor understand it.

 

[brightfame52]

The lie is believed with the same faith a person believes truth.

Matthew 13:58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

The word "unbelief" is translated from the Greek word apistia which means "withholding belief".

It wasn't that they couldn't believe. It was that they withheld belief. The same truth is revealed in Romans 1:18 where God tells us men restrain the truth in unrighteousness.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold [Greek katechō] the truth in unrighteousness;

The words "who hold" are translated from the Greek word katechō which means to suppress, restrain.

God does not withhold anything from those who suppress. Those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness reject God. They are without excuse (Rom 1:20).





To be "given the New Birth" is to be born again. So you're saying they will be born again in order to believe the Truth and be born again.

You're also saying they will be given "the Gift of Faith" which, according to you is the fruit of the Spirit. A person does not exhibit fruit of the Spirit until he/she is born again of Holy Spirit. So, again, you're saying they will be born again in order to believe the Truth and be born again.

Your erroneous dogma does not stand when the light of God's Word shines upon it. Your foundation crumbles under the slightest scrutiny.

Align your dogma to Scripture. Do not attempt to align Scripture to your dogma.


2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ
.

Yes, a person must be born of the Spirit to have Faith, for Faith is the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22. So believing Faith is limited to the Born again ones.

 

[brightfame52]

Discharged by His death !

Anyone Christ died for is a Justified person, because through Christ death for him or her, they have been discharged, acquitted of all guilt and sin before God's Law and Justice, Heb 1:3

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Listen, all for whom He died, He purged their sins and then sat down at the Right Hand of the Majesty on High, God !

The word purged is the greek word katharismos and it does mean:

C.a cleansing from the guilt of sins wrought by the expiatory sacrifice of Christ

They have been cleansed from the penalty and guilt of their sins, they have been made clean. They have been discharged , declared not guilty, and neither shall any charges ever be laid to their account, they are these Rom 4:8

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

No, not now, not never, being that Christ has taken away the guilt and penalty of it forever !

 

[VARob]

Discharged by His death !

Anyone Christ died for is a Justified person, because through Christ death for him or her, they have been discharged, acquitted of all guilt and sin before God's Law and Justice, Heb 1:3

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Listen, all for whom He died, He purged their sins and then sat down at the Right Hand of the Majesty on High, God !

The word purged is the greek word katharismos and it does mean:

C.a cleansing from the guilt of sins wrought by the expiatory sacrifice of Christ

They have been cleansed from the penalty and guilt of their sins, they have been made clean. They have been discharged , declared not guilty, and neither shall any charges ever be laid to their account, they are these Rom 4:8

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

No, not now, not never, being that Christ has taken away the guilt and penalty of it forever !

Christ died for everyone (1 John 2:2). God wants everyone to be saved (1 Tim 2:4). God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Pet 3:9).

Are these verses not in Calvinist’s Bibles?