I like Lord of the Rings but I 'expect to meet Frodo Baggins anytime soon.... Just saying
Why the Adversary HATES the Pre-Tribulation Resurrection-Rapture
- Thread starter Nehemiah6
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I like Lord of the Rings but I 'expect to meet Frodo Baggins anytime soon.... Just saying
How do you get everything in phrase wrong??!!
No one ever disputes resurrection but attaching mass rapture to it doesn't change mass rapture falsehood to truth.
The million verses you have quoted don't show anything related to pre trib rapture and they are all disqualified by one word in one verse:
Rev 20:4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. Theya had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
For all your narrative to gain relevance, you have to remove the word FIRST from that verse.
These are among the things you get wrong- you are not alone, the entire church has it wrong for the last 2000 years:
1. Rapture
Rapture is real but it is never mass rapture, it is individualistic and it happens every day.
2. Great tribulation
The great tribulation is not an extra ordinary event that people should wait with baited breath. The great tribulation is happening even now and has been for the last 2000 years. The GT as described in Rev 6 is nothing more than sword (wars), pestilences (Diseases), Famine(Natural disasters), beasts of the earth (Animals & Machinery- accidents). Only that these things will increase in intensity but no one will even notice. There's no such thing as 3.5 years of trib or even 7 years- these are just figurative duration but one has to understand the 70 weeks prophesy in full to understand the real duration.
In Matt 24, Jesus said before the end everything will be normal, people will be marrying and given to marriage- these means that the tribulation is not an extra ordinary event.
3. The coming of the Lord
One of the greatest misconception ever is around the coming of the Lord. Despite Jesus saying severally that He is coming back doesn't mean that He is coming as a physical entity. This issue really requires wisdom- Jesus comes back as the kingdom of God and the kingdom of God doesn't come with physical observation. The coming of the kingdom is only described as is and was and is to come the Almighty because it is always coming everyday from 2000 years ago when saints are being added into it daily until their predetermined number will be achieved at the end of the age.
The son of man coming has always been used interchangeably with the kingdom of God coming and at one point Jesus also describes His coming with terms used to describe the coming of the kingdom of God. take a keen look:
Matt 16: 28Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”
Mark 9:1 Then Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God arrive with power."
Luke 17:
20Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.”c
22Then he said to his disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. 23People will tell you, ‘There he is!’ or ‘Here he is!’ Do not go running off after them. 24For the Son of Man in his dayd will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. 25But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation
No one ever disputes resurrection but attaching mass rapture to it doesn't change mass rapture falsehood to truth.
The million verses you have quoted don't show anything related to pre trib rapture and they are all disqualified by one word in one verse:
Rev 20:4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. Theya had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
For all your narrative to gain relevance, you have to remove the word FIRST from that verse.
These are among the things you get wrong- you are not alone, the entire church has it wrong for the last 2000 years:
1. Rapture
Rapture is real but it is never mass rapture, it is individualistic and it happens every day.
2. Great tribulation
The great tribulation is not an extra ordinary event that people should wait with baited breath. The great tribulation is happening even now and has been for the last 2000 years. The GT as described in Rev 6 is nothing more than sword (wars), pestilences (Diseases), Famine(Natural disasters), beasts of the earth (Animals & Machinery- accidents). Only that these things will increase in intensity but no one will even notice. There's no such thing as 3.5 years of trib or even 7 years- these are just figurative duration but one has to understand the 70 weeks prophesy in full to understand the real duration.
In Matt 24, Jesus said before the end everything will be normal, people will be marrying and given to marriage- these means that the tribulation is not an extra ordinary event.
3. The coming of the Lord
One of the greatest misconception ever is around the coming of the Lord. Despite Jesus saying severally that He is coming back doesn't mean that He is coming as a physical entity. This issue really requires wisdom- Jesus comes back as the kingdom of God and the kingdom of God doesn't come with physical observation. The coming of the kingdom is only described as is and was and is to come the Almighty because it is always coming everyday from 2000 years ago when saints are being added into it daily until their predetermined number will be achieved at the end of the age.
The son of man coming has always been used interchangeably with the kingdom of God coming and at one point Jesus also describes His coming with terms used to describe the coming of the kingdom of God. take a keen look:
Matt 16: 28Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”
Mark 9:1 Then Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God arrive with power."
Luke 17:
20Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.”c
22Then he said to his disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. 23People will tell you, ‘There he is!’ or ‘Here he is!’ Do not go running off after them. 24For the Son of Man in his dayd will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. 25But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation
The problem with the staunch Pre-tribbers is that post after post, everything they say just screams that they believe the pre-trib rapture theory is set in stone and the Bible verses must be arranged and trimmed to fit that theory. They seem to believe the pre-trib doctrine more than they believe the Bible. That makes it highly suspect IMO.
Following my last post here is a few other thoughts regarding the ''tribulation saints'' In Revelation you have this huge crowd
that we are told come out of the great tribulation. In this system they form a group distinct from those known as the Bride
who according to this teaching were raptured before the tribulation started. If the crowd are tribulation saints who missed the rapture then where is the Bride? We have twenty four elders,a hundred and twenty four thousand and the ''tribulation saints''. All the supporting cast are there but the Bride is nowhere mentioned until you come to chapter 19 where we are told she has made herself ready for the marriage supper. Could it possibly be that the tribulation saints and the bride are identical. We are told no because the church cant be here while Gods wrath is poured out in the tribulation but that appears to be fine for these supposed trib saints.
that we are told come out of the great tribulation. In this system they form a group distinct from those known as the Bride
who according to this teaching were raptured before the tribulation started. If the crowd are tribulation saints who missed the rapture then where is the Bride? We have twenty four elders,a hundred and twenty four thousand and the ''tribulation saints''. All the supporting cast are there but the Bride is nowhere mentioned until you come to chapter 19 where we are told she has made herself ready for the marriage supper. Could it possibly be that the tribulation saints and the bride are identical. We are told no because the church cant be here while Gods wrath is poured out in the tribulation but that appears to be fine for these supposed trib saints.
1 Thess 4: 15According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
Remember, this is one of the main verses that pre tribers rely on and they usually say that this group in 1 Thess 4 is the bride. There's no indication that this event happens some time time before the tribulation, on the contrary, the promise that these group will always be with the Lord forever dismantles the idea that they are pre trib saints because at Rev 20, we see another group that died during the tribulaion; there's no trace of the pre trib saints at Rev 20. It clearly shows that the resurrection being spoken of at 1Thess 4 happens at the very end of age after tribulation but before the millenial rule.
Amen, so true.
Like all false doctrine, those who promote get caught in their own lies.
JPT
NayborBear
Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Romans-11:5 (KJV)
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Those of the "Bride of Christ", are unable in "seeing" the (how can I say) the "unseen efforts" of those "chosen" as "the remnant according to the election of grace." Also called "elect." As the "bride OF Christ", are those to whom the Father has "given" UNTO Christ! These people, whom, are referred to as "sheeple", in many circles, in condescension, at best, and fairly derogatorily, most of the time? Are, for the better part, doing "their" part, in the Great Commission, at best, and "Snake Oil" sales people, in the majority of cases, that Bible Collages (lol) "stamp out" in ever increasing numbers!
(further in this chapter)
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes (Bride OF Christ): but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
(as Paul would say) Does this infer there AREN'T "any" of these 7,000 "remnant" in today's "church?" GOD FORBID! What I shall infer however, is that these same remnant, which haven't already "ran away" from today's "churches of stone?" Are in all likelihood, being "shown the door!" Of course, the "symbolism" of being shown the door, takes on several "meanings."
The Bible does use a "method" of short hand, in the usage of numbers, as a, well?, for several reasons, that come to mind. One, is to "make a long story short." Another, is in "hiding" a long story from enemies. Same thing concerning "names" in the Bible. More, rather, then less! (ALAS!!...I have let the "cat" out of the bag!
))Cuz, ya see? Their is more then 1 enemy, of the Kingdom of God, and Kingdom of Light! As beezelbub, has "it's" own "governmental structure" (aka "the world"), as also does the Kingdom of God, and Kingdom of Light.
(still in Romans 11)
7 What then? Israel (consider, churches of stone) hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. "Traditions of man", even rampant back in those early days of the "germinating church", are not so rampant during these last days? In this writer's opinion? Even MORE so! Elstwise? What meaning of "the GREAT Apostasy?"
Hello Rickyz,
If that was the case we could never understand God's word, nor could we trust in His promises. If you read the scripture it describes the gathering of the church, which takes place in a moment of time to short to divide, as a group event involving the entire church from the on-set of the church up to when the resurrection takes place. Just as the scripture states (in human time) the Lord will descend from heaven to the atmosphere and the dead in Christ will rise first, i.e. everyone who will have died from the on-set of the church to the last believer to die just before the resurrection takes place. At that time they will all receive their immortal and glorified bodies. Immediately after that, those in Christ who are still alive when the resurrection occurs will be changed into their immoral and glorified bodies and will be caught up with those who will have just resurrected. This means that the entire church will be present in the air at one time to meet the Lord. From there and according to John 14:1-3, the Lord will then take the entire church back to the Father's house to those places that he went to prepare for us. This is what the scripture teaches.
According to 2 Cor.5:6 and Phil.1:22-24, At the time of the death of the body, the spirit departs and goes to be in the presence of the Lord. When the it is time for the resurrection to take place, Jesus will bring with Him the spirits of all of those who will have died in Him and they will be reunited with their resurrected bodies.
Remember, the word "anastasis" translated as "Resurrection" is defined as "a physical, bodily, standing up again." That said, at the time of death the spirit leaves the body, where at the resurrection the spirit is returning to the body.
I don't believe God is constrained to our timeline ... that God can touch all of time, all of the time (I have a couple threads which discuss this). I think if more people could wrap their heads around that concept, there would be much less misinterpretation of scripture.
It would also show how, when we depart from this earth and our spirit rises to Christ, even tho our bodies 'sleep' until the resurrection, our spirits and resurrected bodies both arrive with Christ at the same time.
ie, when you die, there is no heavenly 'waiting room' where your spirit lingers awaiting it's resurrected body.
I disagree! Jesus is our example. After He died, His spirit, along with the spirit of the man crucified next to Him, departed from their bodies. Jesus body remained in the tomb (sleeping) while His spirit was conscious and was down in Sheol, I believe in the same place that Abraham and Lazarus were, that place of comfort. After three days, Jesus' spirit returned to His body in the tomb where He resurrected, standing up in that same body albeit immortal and glorified. In the same way that the Lord resurrected, He is every believers guarantee of the resurrection. At the time when the Lord descends, the those who have died in Him from the on-set of the church, God will reanimate their bodies and their spirits will be rejoined to their resurrected bodies.
We can't just make things up the way we want them, that is what scripture is for so that we have God's word on how things are going to take place. Your claim is not supported by scripture, at all! As I pointed out, the scripture describes the event of the resurrection and the living being changed as a group event, which will take place in the blink of an eye.
You need to stick with the scriptures. I guarantee you that, no one has resurrected in their immortal and glorified bodies yet, except for the Lord. But the day in which the entire church will be resurrected, changed and caught up is very, very, near.
The most amusing thing to me. They believe you head to heaven when you die. Then God rips you out of heaven and throws ya in the ground. Then resurrects ya. Then brings ya back to heaven. YIKES!
Then you have not comprehended what I have been claiming. At the time of the resurrection, the Lord will descend from heaven with those spirits those that have died in Him. At the same time, their bodies will be resurrected into the air and they will be reunited with their now immortal and glorified bodies. Take a hint from Jesus resurrection. His spirit was in Sheol and then reunited with His body in the tomb. If you tell me that didn't happen, then you have bigger problems then the issue we are discussing.
In addition to support the proof that the resurrection/rapture takes place as a group event, opposed to taking place each time a believer dies, please see the following:
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men. It instructs us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live sensible, upright, and godly lives in the present age, as we await the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.
As we wait i.e. all believers waiting for the bless hope, which is the appearing of our Lord to gather us.
We also have the following scripture regarding the same event:
"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. "
The scripture above is synonymous with I Thes.4:13-17. Obviously, the gathering/rapture cannot take place for each believer at the time of each persons death and that because the scripture says that it will take place at the "last trumpet," which again, would infer a one-time group event.
I'm just giving you advice to stick with scripture. Because this other stuff that you are claiming is not scriptural for one and it has the flavor of new age teachings, myths.
You are incorrect Lucy! We have posted on just about every Biblical subject. And we don't trim anything to fit what we are teaching, but come to our conclusions from cross-referencing and comparing scripture. If it was as you say, then I wouldn't even both. What would be the point if we were just trying to protect our own belief? We are contending for the truth and accuracy of God's word, period!
The reason why we have people denying the Lord's promise to gather His church prior to His wrath, why we have legalists, preterism, Amillennialism, annihilationist, soul-sleep, replacement theology, etc., etc., is because we are in the last days and the following is happening:
"For the time will come when men will not tolerate sound doctrine, but with itching ears they will gather around themselves teachers to suit their own desires. So they will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."
To put it into perspective for today, those teachers are YouTube, web-sites, false teachers, books written by men, seminars and hearsay. And all their adherents do is repeat the same false apologetics, while ignoring the truth of scripture. Satan is attacking every Biblical truth in these last days and he has a large following to spread those lies among believers.
The pre-tribulation, pre-seven years, pre-first seal, gathering of the church is set in stone, because those who believe in Christ have been credited with righteousness and reconciled to God and that because Jesus took upon Himself the wrath that every believer deserves. Therefore, the wrath of God no longer rests upon those in Christ. Because of this and the scriptures that proclaim it, believers are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath on this earth via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, nor the wrath at the great white throne judgment.
Paul, in writing to Titus called the gathering of the church, "the blessed hope." After giving a detailed account of this event to the Thessalonians, he said to them and us, "Therefore comfort one another with these words." That said, if the Lord was to put His church through the time of His wrath and gather us after it was completed, there would be no blessed hope, nor could believers comfort one another with those words, because we would be exposed to all of God's wrath. Also if this were true, God would be punishing the righteous with the wicked, which He doesn't do. And anyone who thinks that God is going to protect His church in the midst of His wrath, hasn't understood the severity and magnitude of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
Whenever I see a thread like this, I have to ask, "What difference does it make?"
God has the 'Final Things' well in hand and planned out, regardless of how we've interpreted what we think will happen.
What we believe or do not believe about how the Final Things will play out will not affect them in any way.
How we live today, however, how we love well those in our spheres of influence, will have eternal impact.
I find that my views on the Final Things changes over time the more I mature in Christ and become more and more familiar with the Scriptures. And my views don't matter! God will do what He will do! My job is to share the Good News of
And doing that when doors open in the course of loving those around me.
I have a hunch that when the Final Things all play out, we will all be looking around and realizing that God's reality is so superior to our interpretations!
Folks, please keep in mind that believing in and receiving the forgiveness, righteousness, and new life in Christ is what saves you, not in having the 'correct' view of the Final Things.
-JGIG
God has the 'Final Things' well in hand and planned out, regardless of how we've interpreted what we think will happen.
What we believe or do not believe about how the Final Things will play out will not affect them in any way.
How we live today, however, how we love well those in our spheres of influence, will have eternal impact.
I find that my views on the Final Things changes over time the more I mature in Christ and become more and more familiar with the Scriptures. And my views don't matter! God will do what He will do! My job is to share the Good News of
- Who Christ is
- What He came to do
- What He actually accomplished, and
- Who we who believe in Christ are in Him.
And doing that when doors open in the course of loving those around me.
I have a hunch that when the Final Things all play out, we will all be looking around and realizing that God's reality is so superior to our interpretations!
Folks, please keep in mind that believing in and receiving the forgiveness, righteousness, and new life in Christ is what saves you, not in having the 'correct' view of the Final Things.
-JGIG
It made enough difference to the troubled Thessalonian Christians that Paul had to clarify the matter properly. And it made all the difference to the troubled apostles who were dreading the departure of Christ when He gave them much assurance in John 14.
And if prophetic truth was not important for God and Christ, 2/3rds or more the Bible would not be prophetic. So it makes all the difference to either know the truth, believe it, share it, and teach it, or to believe the lies of Satan and be deluded.
The problem here is that Jesus said in the end many will turn away from Him. I imagine that many pre-tribbers, should they suddenly find themselves in the thick of it, will ask themselves "what else was I wrong about" and go apostate.