Hebrew Roots Movement

[just-me]

From what I have observed since receiving Salvation in 1968 on this subject:


1) Messianic Judaism is totally Jewish HRM is almost entirely non-Jewish.

2) Messianic Jews tend to serve in mainstream churches; while HRM tends to be separatist.

3) Messianic Jews are usually NOT Torah observant and do not attempt to put people under Law; while HRM attempts to be Torah observant (IMO unsuccessfully) and does try to put people under Law.

There are other distinctives; but this should clear a lot of confusion.

That's good input. Under the law is observing the law without spiritual understanding of the law. It is totally carnal.
Rejecting the law is due to carnality also on the opposite end of the spectrum because of no spiritual understanding.
The only recourse is to reject it all, even though God has preserved it in the English language for us.
I do sincerely believe that we should observe it spiritually.
God is Spirit, and not carnal, therefore Paul stating that the law is spiritual, becomes exactly true.
If I am not a Messianic Jew, and ascribe to the spiritual aspects of the law, then I must belong to the HRM? DUH
How does that one work, for false accusations cause separation in the long run?

 

[Brother_Don]

Matthew 5:11-13.

 

[Brother_Don]

Matthew chapter 5 is a great chapter, but it seems like a lot of people stop after the blessed are in the sermon on the mount, instead of whole chapter.

 

[Brother_Don]

Matthew 5:17-22

 

[Brother_Don]

i don't know how to copy and paste, but i think the whole sermon on the mount is a great study.

 

[Brother_Don]

The teachings of Jesus are all out of proportion when compared to our natural way of looking at things, and they come to us initially with astonishing discomfort. We gradually have to conform our walk and conversation to the precepts of Jesus Christ as the Holy Spirit applies them to our circumstances. The Sermon on the Mount is not a set of rules and regulations-it is a picture of the life we will live when the Holy Spirit is having His unhindered way with us. Words of Oswald Chambers. he says it better than i can.

 

[just-me]

More stuff I'm confused about.

God elects some from all nations, right? At one time Israel was a nation. It's a nation again. We're from different nations. If we weren't from Israel originally, we're gentiles. So Israel or those who can go back to Israel as their home country or those who adopted into the Israel beliefs (aka the Jews, although that's not exactly accurate either, since Jews come from Judah, not all of Israel for some reason) and gentiles become Christians. It's not gentiles separated from the Jews. It's gentiles and Jews becoming Christians.

Sort of like I used to be Catholic, but now I'm not.

So how do you get separated in this? Both groups left their groups to become a new group.

I repeat "Supersessionism, also called replacement theology or fulfillment theology, is a Christian theological view on the current status of the church in relation to the Jewish people and Judaism."

This is really a Constantine theology that is now (today right here) showing up as people naming others as "Judaizers" just because we esteem the law as relevant for today. It didn't begin with the Jews.

 

[just-me]

According to the OP, I still have no clue as to how I fit into what I am labeled as fitting into. The following show me one thing about myself. "I am more adamant not to change what I believe just because I'm labeled and and accused falsely." My accusers seem more HRM minded even than the first Roman Catholic church. "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:" Matthew 12:25

I know you have all the Hebrew Roots talking points down pat. You conveniently left out vs 17 from my quote...

Colossians 2:17 (KJV) Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

That's all those things are...shadows, we are to live in His Light not the shadows...but you're free to study the shadows if you want. Pagans weren't calling them shadows, Paul did.

You seek to discredit NT Christianity because it makes the reality of Christ its focus rather than the shadows of the law.

Scripture clearly explains, in both the Old and New Testaments that Pagans hated celebrations that were observed contrary to their own false religion. The Old Testament shadow confirmed that substance and light were present and available to us. The shadow should cause people to turn and look for the substance and the Light that makes substance possible to identify. (Hebrew 11:1)

The reasoning that the Sabbath and Holy Days do not apply to New Covenant Christians is inescapable.

I have heard from others that there are only 9 commandments that need to be observed in the New Testament church. Sabbath is out, so entering into His rest (Hebrews 4:10) is also out. But then we are forced back into our own works (under the law) that is contrary to the abolition of Sabbath.

Keeping in mind that to lable the doctrine whose purpose is to discredit NT Christianity is not to label the person who subscribes to aspects of it.

That's a convenient way to blur the important distinction.

Separation, eh?
So my purpose is to discredit the New Testament? I quote the reality of the NT I would hope, as much as I do the reality of the Old, but I refuse to discredit the Old also. It is all God's Word, and Jesus is the Creator of it all, including the Old Covenant. If giving respect for the Old Testament is degradation of the New, then I reject that religion!

1) They believe in replacement theology.

Supersessionism, also called replacement theology or fulfillment theology, is a Christian theological view on the current status of the church in relation to the Jewish people and Judaism.

This propagates separation between the Jews and the Gentiles. I believe the opposite. Togetherness in Christ is Biblical, and it also is what Paul revealed to us.

This doesn't sound like Judaism, is sounds like what my Christan accusers are trying to convince me of.

You are quite confused regarding propagation of the separation of believing Jews and Gentiles.

I'm thankful to say that I've seen a plateauing of growth in the HRM in the last year or so, partly due to growing awareness in the Body, more pastors preaching the Gospel of Grace message without a mixture of Law, and the continued demonstration of bad fruit in the Hebrew Roots Movement.
Grace and peace,
-JGIG

plateauing = to reach a state or level of little or no growth or decline, especially to stop increasing or progressing; remain at a stable level of achievement; level off:
My belief is to not stalemate and to continue to increase in faith. Believing in Christ is "going forward." Yet we hear the political phrase "going forward" when in fact we are going in the opposite direction. Are my accusers propagating the same thing? Scripture defines leveling off, (stop increasing) as "falling away" because of a content apathy and or endorsing replacement theology. Hebrews 6:1-6
As the knowledge of the law declines, the more that lawlessness increases, but Paul wrote that "the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;" (1 Timothy 1:8)

Replacement Theology is indeed a theology, and not what HRMers teach.

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...-old-covenant-observance-causes-division.html

If you're not HRM, you really should look into it - you'd find a LOT of like-minded folks there ! You're preaching the same stuff.
And your Law-keeping theology does not stand up to a plain reading of the New Covenant Scriptures.

I have truly been edified by all that I have quoted here. It has been confirmed to me to continue as I have for the last year as a member of cc. "Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth..." Ephesians 6:14a

"For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed." Malachi 3:6

 

[just-me]

For the first 280 years of Christian history, Christianity was banned by the Roman Empire, and Christians were terribly persecuted. This changed after the “conversion” of the Roman Emperor Constantine. Constantine “legalized” Christianity with the Edict of Milan in A.D. 313. Later, in A.D. 325, Constantine called the Council of Nicaea in an attempt to unify Christianity. Constantine envisioned Christianity as a religion that could unite the Roman Empire, which at that time was beginning to fragment and divide. While this may have seemed to be a positive development for the Christian church, the results were anything but positive. Just as Constantine refused to fully embrace the Christian faith, but continued many of his pagan beliefs and practices, so the Christian church that Constantine promoted was a mixture of true Christianity and Roman paganism.

In 325 A.D. it was declared official by Constantine at the Council of Nicene (Roman decree), whereby worshipping on the Sabbath or in a synagogue was prohibited, as well as celebrating the feasts. In order to become a Christian under Constantine's reign, a new Jewish believer had to renounce all customs, rights, legalisms, unleavened breads and feasts ...new moons...synagogues, shabbats... everything Jewish, every right, law and custom. To make an even more defined division of the two sects, Constantine at this time declared that Christians would worship only on the first day of the week, now called Sunday, the day of the sun god. He further changed the observance of Passover to the spring pagan holiday of Ishtar, now known as Easter, as well as changing the birth of Yeshua from the first day of the Feast of Tabernacles (Succoth) to the pagan winter solstice, the birthday of Nimrod on December 25, now known as Christmas. Nowhere in Scripture are we told to celebrate the birth of Yeshua, but we are commanded in Leviticus 23 to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. Thus, we began to lose our Jewish roots as pagan idolatry entered into the worship of the God of Israel.

The following creed is from a church at Constantinople at the same period, and condemns practices of the Nazarenes: Quote..........
“I renounce all customs, rites, legalisms, unleavened breads & sacrifices of lambs of the Hebrews, and all other feasts of the Hebrews, sacrifices, prayers, aspersions, purifications, sanctifications and propitiations and fasts, and new moons, and Sabbaths, and superstitions, and hymns and chants and observances and Synagogues, and the food and drink of the Hebrews; in one word, I renounce everything Jewish, every law, rite and custom and if afterwards I shall wish to deny and return to Jewish superstition, or shall be found eating with the Jews, or feasting with them, or secretly conversing and condemning the Christian religion instead of openly confuting them and condemning their vain faith, then let the trembling of Gehazi cleave to me, as well as the legal punishments to which I acknowledge myself liable. And may I be anathema in the world to come, and may my soul be set down with Satan and the devils." [end quote]

Now I certainly do not ascribe to works of the law for righteousness sake, and neither do I ascribe to faith without works. If The Roman Catholic church in Constantinople had the same outlook as those that label me as a “Hebrew Roots Movement” person, what is the difference between them and Constantine of the first Roman Catholic sect?

This is the thread Robop started
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/41911-catholic-heresy-record.html

This is the thread I started
http://christianchat.com/conspiracy...olic-traditions-began-during-1st-century.html

So I see accusations toward me, based on false principles, that are no different than the Council of Nicene/ Nicaea under Constantine. What's up if we cannot recognize the adversaries tactics? Are those people I quoted any different than the Roman Catholics during the time of Constantine?

Yes, that is the thread where you seek to discredit NT Christianity as does the HRM.

You're equating the Body of Christ with Roman Catholicism.

That is error.

If you really do believe that Christ of the Tribe of Judah is your Mediator, then you have died to the Law and its Levitical priesthood.

Welcome to the New Covenant! \o/

No. I'm equating the religion of my accusers with Roman Catholicism.

They seek to put other believers under the Law; they spend almost NO TIME attempting to reach the Lost.

Do as Paul did. Those without the law, or under it, are to be reached for Christ's sake and for His glory. Speaking against those like myself who are supposedly "under the law" has no sway in converting me to the truth if that were the case, which it isn't. "And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;" (1 Corinthians 9:20)

Would you condemn those who are truly under the law in the same way? The end result is the same for what the HRM does, and what you are accusing them of. Is there a log in the eye somewhere?

Separation continues right here in cc with the Constantine pattern. This is one of our adversary's tactics. When will we wake up and be more than conquerors through Christ Jesus, and begin quoting the law as Jesus did to Satan while He was templed in the wideness? (Deuteronomy) God's word is quick and powerful. It has immense strength against our adversary! Use it! Stop demanding its annihilation with false accusations while saying it's been made void! Is it the law that's carnal or the mindset that is against it? Are my accusers carnally minded proving themselves as such “because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.?” (Romans 8:7)

 

[sparkman]

Scripture clearly explains, in both the Old and New Testaments that Pagans hated celebrations that were observed contrary to their own false religion. The Old Testament shadow confirmed that substance and light were present and available to us. The shadow should cause people to turn and look for the substance and the Light that makes substance possible to identify. (Hebrew 11:1)




I have heard from others that there are only 9 commandments that need to be observed in the New Testament church. Sabbath is out, so entering into His rest (Hebrews 4:10) is also out. But then we are forced back into our own works (under the law) that is contrary to the abolition of Sabbath.

"For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed." Malachi 3:6

So, let's cut down to the chaste.

Do you say that those who do not keep the Sabbath and Holy Days are unsaved or spiritually inferior to yourself? Is that the intent of your message?

I clearly explained that the context of Colossians 2:16-17 cannot be used to support your point. It is speaking of those who are judging the Gentiles for not keeping the Sabbath and the Holy Days. The context of the entire chapter proves this. They are complete in Christ and don't need to be observing Sabbaths or any other thing to approach Christ.

In addition, the language of shadows implies their transcient nature. The exact same language is used in Hebrews 10:1-2 in regards to animal sacrifices.

But..the important question I have is whether you are attempting to assert that Christians who reject your views on the Sabbath and Holy Days are unbelievers or spiritually inferior. I don't care about whether a person has an individual preference or conscience on these issues, but when you step into the realm of claiming that those who are non-observers are unsaved or in sin, that's a different story.

 

[just-me]

So, let's cut down to the chaste.

Do you say that those who do not keep the Sabbath and Holy Days are unsaved or spiritually inferior to yourself? Is that the intent of your message?

Where did I say that? Assumptions again?

 

[just-me]

But..the important question I have is whether you are attempting to assert that Christians who reject your views on the Sabbath and Holy Days are unbelievers or spiritually inferior. I don't care about whether a person has an individual preference or conscience on these issues, but when you step into the realm of claiming that those who are non-observers are unsaved or in sin, that's a different story.

Are not those things spiritual in the New Covenant with Christ? Can you only view those things with the carnal mind? Are we not supposed to enter into His rest? Are not the feasts a spiritual foreshadowing on the reality of the spiritual? Is not "tabernacles" going to be observed in the reign of Christ when He comes to establish His Kingdom? False accusations against God's law are completely spurred on by carnal thinking. Spiritual thinking accepts what the law (spiritually) represented during the time of Moses. Jesus didn't change that, and neither should we. We are suppose to have the mind of Christ, and be conformed into His image.

 

[sparkman]

in A.D. 325, Constantine called the Council of Nicaea in an attempt to unify Christianity. Constantine envisioned Christianity as a religion that could unite the Roman Empire, which at that time was beginning to fragment and divide. While this may have seemed to be a positive development for the Christian church, the results were anything but positive. Just as Constantine refused to fully embrace the Christian faith, but continued many of his pagan beliefs and practices, so the Christian church that Constantine promoted was a mixture of true Christianity and Roman paganism.

In 325 A.D. it was declared official by Constantine at the Council of Nicene (Roman decree), whereby worshipping on the Sabbath or in a synagogue was prohibited, as well as celebrating the feasts. In order to become a Christian under Constantine's reign, a new Jewish believer had to renounce all customs, rights, legalisms, unleavened breads and feasts ...new moons...synagogues, shabbats... everything Jewish, every right, law and custom. To make an even more defined division of the two sects, Constantine at this time declared that Christians would worship only on the first day of the week, now called Sunday, the day of the sun god. He further changed the observance of Passover to the spring pagan holiday of Ishtar, now known as Easter, as well as changing the birth of Yeshua from the first day of the Feast of Tabernacles (Succoth) to the pagan winter solstice, the birthday of Nimrod on December 25, now known as Christmas. Nowhere in Scripture are we told to celebrate the birth of Yeshua, but we are commanded in Leviticus 23 to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. Thus, we began to lose our Jewish roots as pagan idolatry entered into the worship of the God of Israel.

The following creed is from a church at Constantinople at the same period, and condemns practices of the Nazarenes: Quote..........
“I renounce all customs, rites, legalisms, unleavened breads & sacrifices of lambs of the Hebrews, and all other feasts of the Hebrews, sacrifices, prayers, aspersions, purifications, sanctifications and propitiations and fasts, and new moons, and Sabbaths, and superstitions, and hymns and chants and observances and Synagogues, and the food and drink of the Hebrews; in one word, I renounce everything Jewish, every law, rite and custom and if afterwards I shall wish to deny and return to Jewish superstition, or shall be found eating with the Jews, or feasting with them, or secretly conversing and condemning the Christian religion instead of openly confuting them and condemning their vain faith, then let the trembling of Gehazi cleave to me, as well as the legal punishments to which I acknowledge myself liable. And may I be anathema in the world to come, and may my soul be set down with Satan and the devils." [end quote]

Now I certainly do not ascribe to works of the law for righteousness sake, and neither do I ascribe to faith without works. If The Roman Catholic church in Constantinople had the same outlook as those that label me as a “Hebrew Roots Movement” person, what is the difference between them and Constantine of the first Roman Catholic sect?

This is the thread Robop started
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/41911-catholic-heresy-record.html

This is the thread I started
http://christianchat.com/conspiracy...olic-traditions-began-during-1st-century.html

So I see accusations toward me, based on false principles, that are no different than the Council of Nicene/ Nicaea under Constantine. What's up if we cannot recognize the adversaries tactics? Are those people I quoted any different than the Roman Catholics during the time of Constantine?



Do as Paul did. Those without the law, or under it, are to be reached for Christ's sake and for His glory. Speaking against those like myself who are supposedly "under the law" has no sway in converting me to the truth if that were the case, which it isn't. "And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;" (1 Corinthians 9:20)

Would you condemn those who are truly under the law in the same way? The end result is the same for what the HRM does, and what you are accusing them of. Is there a log in the eye somewhere?

Separation continues right here in cc with the Constantine pattern. This is one of our adversary's tactics. When will we wake up and be more than conquerors through Christ Jesus, and begin quoting the law as Jesus did to Satan while He was templed in the wideness? (Deuteronomy) God's word is quick and powerful. It has immense strength against our adversary! Use it! Stop demanding its annihilation with false accusations while saying it's been made void! Is it the law that's carnal or the mindset that is against it? Are my accusers carnally minded proving themselves as such “because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.?” (Romans 8:7)

Constantine did not prohibit observance of the Sabbath; he simply required Sunday as a day of mandatory rest. If individuals wanted to rest on the Sabbath, they could continue to do so. Sunday observance was for the benefit of slaves who were being required to work without rest every day of the week.

Later, at the council of Laodicea in AD363, there was a law prohibiting Judaizing on the Sabbath, but I believe this was mandated due to individuals like yourself who sought to cause division in the church over the issue of days.

It is the same situation as today..declaring that others are spiritually inferior or unsaved due to the issue of days.

The conspiracy theory that is weaved by Sabbatarians is a mixture of fact and fiction, with fiction being the bigger part of it. I believed their faulty view of history for a decade...a lot of this came from the SDAs and the Seventh Day Baptists including Joseph Bates and Ellen G. White.

By the way, even SDA historian Samuele Bacchiocchi admitted that the vast majority of Christianity had moved to Sunday meetings by AD 150 and the Council of Constantinople ruling affected very few.

Judaizers simply want to proclaim themselves to be the true followers of God and reject the Christianity of others. They have been very active in this regard recently, and they were just as active during the New Testament period. Paul's letters clearly show that:

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...-old-covenant-observance-causes-division.html

Herbert Armstrong, the leader of my former Judaizing cult, constantly called others "so-called Christians" and claimed they were a "counterfeit Christianity".

 

[just-me]

Constantine did not prohibit observance of the Sabbath; he simply required Sunday as a day of mandatory rest. If individuals wanted to rest on the Sabbath, they could continue to do so. Sunday observance was for the benefit of slaves who were being required to work without rest every day of the week.

What does this creed say that Jews were forced to read so they could join the Roman Catholic church?
I renounce all customs, rites, legalisms, unleavened breads & sacrifices of lambs of the Hebrews, and all other feasts of the Hebrews, sacrifices, prayers, aspersions, purifications, sanctifications and propitiations and fasts, and new moons, and Sabbaths,

And if they didn't condemn their own beliefs they had to submit to.....

"then let the trembling of Gehazi cleave to me, as well as the legal punishments to which I acknowledge myself liable. And may I be anathema in the world to come, and may my soul be set down with Satan and the devils."

 

[sparkman]

Where did I say that? Assumptions again?

Maybe I need to clarify.

1. Are those who don't keep the Sabbath or annual festivals spiritually inferior or unsaved?
2. Is Sabbath-breaking a sin?
3. Are non-Sabbathkeeping Christians following a counterfeit form of Christianity?

If you want to make such accusations or allusions, man up and admit to exactly what you are trying to say.

 

[sparkman]

The Roman Catholic church did not come into being as we know it until about 600 AD and this has no bearing on Constantine's edict. To quote it in this context is disingenuous.

What does this creed say that Jews were forced to read so they could join the Roman Catholic church?
I renounce all customs, rites, legalisms, unleavened breads & sacrifices of lambs of the Hebrews, and all other feasts of the Hebrews, sacrifices, prayers, aspersions, purifications, sanctifications and propitiations and fasts, and new moons, and Sabbaths,

And if they didn't condemn their own beliefs they had to submit to.....

"then let the trembling of Gehazi cleave to me, as well as the legal punishments to which I acknowledge myself liable. And may I be anathema in the world to come, and may my soul be set down with Satan and the devils."

 

[just-me]

Maybe I need to clarify.

1. Are those who don't keep the Sabbath or annual festivals spiritually inferior or unsaved?
2. Is Sabbath-breaking a sin?
3. Are non-Sabbathkeeping Christians following a counterfeit form of Christianity?

If you want to make such accusations or allusions, man up and admit to exactly what you are trying to say.

If they only do those things without faith, all those things mean nothing. Why are you always bringing Sabbath keeping up. I'm not a big proponent of that. I have never pumped Sabbath keeping. I started a thread about that quite some time ago so that you will know the truth about what I believe rather than consistently assume. Get over it!

Here's my thread about Sabbath days and times.
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/100193-counting-sabbath-days.html?highlight=

Read it and then make your judgment about me. Edify instead of condemn!

 

[Elin]

Just me,
I got to thinking. (ut-oh. lol) Why not just tell what you believe that is similar and what is different from HRM?

The way I understand you is you do believe Christ was/is the Savior. You don't believe you are still waiting for the Messiah (which seems prevalent in the HRM.) So instead of combating misconception after misconception, why not just tell? And I know it takes a long time to cover everything anyone believes, but since so many are under the concept you do believe as the HRM, why not just cover that stuff?

What he has shown so far that he has in common with HRM is his view that NT Christianity is tainted by the assimilation of paganism and by the doctrine of ancient heretics.

I suspect that came from a non-identified-as-HRM web page.

 

[Elin]

How can I do that when I am asking what they represent? I cannot define a difference between me and what I know nothing about.

I have defined my beliefs to CC the first day that a began posting on this forum. I joined 2 years ago. I think that's plenty of time for people to know what I believe, and why, leaving no room for assumption on my part. That hasn't changed. I did not, and have no started the conflict. Those who rail accusations in assumptions have declared "war" i.e."combat" against me. The only way I cannot be involved in this, is to be silent according to Biblical principles. What would have happened if Jesus, or any of the apostles chickened out and became silent about the truth?

That NT Christianity is tainted by the assimilation of paganism and the false doctrine of ancient heretic is not true.

That is classic HRM.

 

[sparkman]

Regarding your remark about the Feast of Tabernacles in the Millennium, if you want to use consistent reasoning, you would have to promote animal sacrifices now, as the Prophets also spoke about them in the same context.

The Prophets spoke in the context of the Old Covenant, with Old Covenant eyes. They were sent to warn Israel to return back to the Old Covenant. Any reference they made to the Millennium was made with similar Old Covenant eyes. They portrayed a return to devotion to God in a manner that the Israelites could understand, which was the context of the Old Covenant.

Some dispensationists may disagree with me on this point, but this view is more reasonable.

Either way, you would need to promote animal sacrifices for New Covenant Christians if you employ your reasoning consistently. Sabbath/festival keepers aren't noted for consistency, though.

This topic is explained more thoroughly in this thread:

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...eeping-references-old-testament-prophets.html

Are not those things spiritual in the New Covenant with Christ? Can you only view those things with the carnal mind? Are we not supposed to enter into His rest? Are not the feasts a spiritual foreshadowing on the reality of the spiritual? Is not "tabernacles" going to be observed in the reign of Christ when He comes to establish His Kingdom? False accusations against God's law are completely spurred on by carnal thinking. Spiritual thinking accepts what the law (spiritually) represented during the time of Moses. Jesus didn't change that, and neither should we. We are suppose to have the mind of Christ, and be conformed into His image.