Is the old testament laws still use today?

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crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#21
Now Peter's experience concerning all manner of unclean food is Spiritually referring to the Gentiles being co-heirs of the Kingdom of God along with the believing Jews. Peter didn't go to Cornelius's house to eat pork or snails etc.

Colossians 2:16 is what the pagans were saying to believers. They were railing accusations, and judging believers in Christ Jesus, who adhered to Paul's exhortations and partook of the feasts defined in scripture of the Old Testament (as we know it) because the New Testament had not been written yet.
I know you have all the Hebrew Roots talking points down pat. You conveniently left out vs 17 from my quote...

Colossians 2:17 (KJV) Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

That's all those things are...shadows, we are to live in His Light not the shadows...but you're free to study the shadows if you want. Pagans weren't calling them shadows, Paul did.
 
Mar 4, 2013
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#22
Technically you can't divide the Mosaic Law up in convenient sections of moral, ceremonial, national etc. The Law is one inseparable unit.
The Mosaic Law was conditional upon our obedience and to break one point you have broken the whole.
Christ fulfilled the Mosaic law and has placed in the believer's heart His Law, which is better understood as a reflection of His nature and which we call the new nature or new birth.
I agree and will add to your comment......
Then why not study the spiritual aspects of the law and take it to heart via the Holy Spirit given to us? (rhetorically) The Word and the Spirit work in coordination with each other. The word alone, or the spirit alone isn't the way God has created things for us to work right within us. If we don't include the word, how will we ever be able to define the spirit that motives is the right one? According to the word, at least 2 witnesses need to be in agreement so the truth can be established (seen).
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#23
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
That's because Christ fulfilled the law and when we take hold of Christ and His Righteousness by faith the law is honored.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#24
I agree and will add to your comment......
Then why not study the spiritual aspects of the law and take it to heart via the Holy Spirit given to us? (rhetorically) The Word and the Spirit work in coordination with each other. The word alone, or the spirit alone isn't the way God has created things for us to work right within us. If we don't include the word, how will we ever be able to define the spirit that motives is the right one? According to the word, at least 2 witnesses need to be in agreement so the truth can be established (seen).
Yes, His moral nature works in the regenerate, not the shadows given to Israel, that's how I see the Word explaining it.
 
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Mar 4, 2013
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#25
I know you have all the Hebrew Roots talking points down pat. You conveniently left out vs 17 from my quote...

Colossians 2:17 (KJV) Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

That's all those things are...shadows, we are to live in His Light not the shadows...but you're free to study the shadows if you want. Pagans weren't calling them shadows, Paul did.
Pagans didn't want celebrations that they observed being different than there's. They hated righteousness that was being practiced by the believers in Collosia.

You seem to be able to tell me more about HRM that I can tell you about that movement because your more educated on it than I am.
Yes, His moral nature works in the regenerate, not the shadows given to Israel, that's how I see the Word explaining it.
In order to understand the truth of the light, a shadow is cast shining on some type of substance. First is light, and then there's substance that casts a shadow. The substance was a "mystery" before Christ revealed it, and was ministered to the Gentiles via Paul. Now because of the New Covenant, we can understand the substance that casts the shadow. Get rid of any three of these entities, and the other 2 don't exist in the form God would desire us to see.

No light, no shadow,
No substance no shadow,
No shadow no light,
and the light without substance casts no shadow.
but if there i still light and substance, then a shadow is sure to be seen unless we don't want to see the reflection of the substance and turn away on purpose.

It's all three or it's all incomplete.
All three makes it all complete.
 
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Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
58,662
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#26
No light, no shadow,
No substance no shadow,
No shadow no light,
and the light without substance casts no shadow.

It's all three or it's all incomplete.
All three makes it all complete.
I would have to disagree with this (in bold above). It is like you are saying that God cannot exist unless He manifests Himself somehow... unless I am misunderstanding.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#27
Pagans didn't want celebrations that they observed being different than there's. They hated righteousness that was being practiced by the believers in Collosia.

You seem to be able to tell me more about HRM that I can tell you about that movement because your more educated on it than I am.

In order to understand the truth of the light, a shadow is cast shining on some type of substance. First is light, and then there's substance that casts a shadow. The substance was a "mystery" before Christ revealed it, and was ministered to the Gentiles via Paul. Now because of the New Covenant, we can understand the substance that casts the shadow. Get rid of any three of these entities, and the other 2 don't exist in the form God would desire us to see.

No light, no shadow,
No substance no shadow,
No shadow no light,
and the light without substance casts no shadow.

It's all three or it's all incomplete.
All three makes it all complete.
I've had my ' brushes' with the HRM. Many are influenced in different degrees and ways.

The Substance is Christ and the shadows led up to Christ. Once one has the substance the shadow is no longer needed.
Do you hug trees or their shadows? (I hope neither :p ) When your sweet heart finally arrives do you run over to her picture and start kissing it?

...and of course Christ is the Light as well as the Substance.
 
Mar 4, 2013
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#28
Originally Posted by just-me

No light, no shadow,
No substance no shadow,
No shadow no light,
and the light without substance casts no shadow.

It's all three or it's all incomplete.
All three makes it all complete.

I would have to disagree with this (in bold above). It is like you are saying that God cannot exist unless He manifests Himself somehow... unless I am misunderstanding.
If you detect a shadow on the floor of your house, turn the light off and the shadow disappears in the dark. God wants us to recognize the existence of His light. After heaven and earth were created, light was the very next thing God spoke into existence. (Genesis 1:3) "Light" is very important to Him for us to see Him as the true shining light.
 
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crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
3,670
113
#29
Originally Posted by just-me

No light, no shadow,
No substance no shadow,
No shadow no light,
and the light without substance casts no shadow.

It's all three or it's all incomplete.
All three makes it all complete.



If you detect a shadow on the floor of your house, turn the light off and the shadow disappears in the dark. God wants us to recognize the existence of His light. After heaven and earth were created, light was the very next thing God spoke into existence. (Genesis 1:3) "Light" is very important to Him for us to see Him as the true shining light.
bad analogy, as Scripture shows Jesus as both Substance and Light...kinda like our sun :)
 
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Biblelogic01

Guest
#30
"Master, which is the great commandment in the law?" Jesus said unto him, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."
You know Jesus is quoting the Torah right there? And also that verses stating the entire of the commandments and the prophets hang on these to, in other versions it also states as sums up the law and the prophets. Which is someone actually understands what Torah is and how to follow it properly, then yes you can sum up the entire of Torah with that verse. A lot of people want to bash on the Torah just because of what they read in Paul's letters. Paul says amazing things, but even Peter stated to be careful when reading Paul because it can be easily twisted. I didn't understand most of what Paul was saying until I did state Torah observance, it made a lot of the things he stated in his letters more clear.

Now I'm not saying you have to go and do this, but it is not wrong, to follow this things.
 
Dec 9, 2011
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#31
Here's the scoop...the Old Testament is a mirror of the New Testament. We get the pleasure of knowing the historical background of having GoD in our lives. Not only do we see the entire geneology of JESUS, the history of how the world was created, the way that GOD chose a little seemingly insignificant group of bedouins and deliver them from slavery into their own nation (Israel), but we also have all those awesome biblical heroes that teach us morals, and how to stay focused on GOD. As far as the "LAW" (Ten Commandments), nobody just obeys them and expects a ticket to heaven. What we now have is JESUS that fulfilled the Law in it's entirety. If we choose JESUS...we would not want to steal, commit crimes, etc. Jesus summed it up in LOVE. DO not discard the Old Testament, but rest assured that if you follow JESUS..you are following the updated version of the LAW to then "Inth" degree. Without JESUS..obeying the Law gets you nowhere as far as eternity in heaven, but it will keep you out of prison while on earth.
I was about to like your post until you said it will keep you out of prison here on earth.
GOD is a Spirit.
So are you talking about the spirit or the flesh?
 
S

sparkman

Guest
#32
Thank u exactly the answer I was looking for similar to the answer my lil sis gave me i asked her,she says that the Old Testament law was given to the nation of Israel, not to Christians. Some of the laws were to reveal to the Israelites how to obey and please God but I just want to be sure that I'm not breaking God's law.
If you can get the book Sabbath in Christ I highly recommend it. It is written by Dale Ratzlaff.

I used to be a member of a church that claimed these laws applied to New Covenant Christians. Particularly, they focused on the Sabbath, annual festivals of Leviticus 23, clean and unclean meats, and triple tithing. Their focus was not on Jesus Christ and placing one's faith in him; it was on keeping these ceremonial and ritualistic elements of the Old Covenant.

You will also find that groups which teach this often teach that other Christians who don't think the same as them are either unsaved or spiritually inferior. It is a very judgmental culture. I myself considered all Protestants and Catholics to be "so-called Christians" and unsaved and still in their sins.

I rejected these teachings after 10 years of observing them.

Concerning the Sabbath and Holy Days in particular, you might want to check this thread:

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...-17-sabbath-festival-new-moon-observance.html

Concerning clean and unclean meats, I will refer you to Romans 14:14-17 and Mark 7, where Jesus clearly stated that there is nothing eaten which defiles a person, but that evil attitudes and thoughts are what defiles a person (Mark 7:14-23). He declared all foods clean implicitly through these remarks. Luke recognized this in verse 19 when he said Thus he declared all foods clean.
There may be some health benefit from not eating these foods, though, and it's a matter of individual conscience. I would say the same thing with regards to the Sabbath or holy days. If a person wants to keep them without declaring others sinners for not keeping them, I see no issue with their observance. Romans 14 allows for this. Unfortunately, though, many who do keep them judge others....but not all.
 
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sparkman

Guest
#33
The context of this chapter of Colossians 2 clearly indicates contrary to your assertions. I used to read those verses exactly the same way that you do, and i was in error.

The context is how believers are complete in Christ and don't need to follow any observances to become complete in Him. They were already complete in Him and didn't need to do anything else.

In addition, the Sabbath and annual festivals are mentioned in exactly the same light as food and drink offerings. Food and drink offerings are obsolete, so by association, so are the Sabbath and annual festivals.

The Sabbath and annyal festivals are a "shadow of things to come". The same exact language is used in regards to animal sacrifices in Hebrews 10:1-2. We know that animal sacrifices are not applicable now, so by implication neither are Sabbaths and annual festivals.

I will re-post something I've written on another thread in this regard:


Colossians 2:16-17 [SUP]16 [/SUP]Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. [SUP]17 [/SUP]These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

Hebrews 9:10-12 [SUP]10 [/SUP]but deal only with food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until the time of reformation. [SUP]11 [/SUP]But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come,[SUP][a][/SUP] then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) [SUP]12 [/SUP]he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

Galatians 3:16-25 [SUP]16 [/SUP]Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. [SUP]17 [/SUP]This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. [SUP]22 [/SUP]But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. [SUP]23 [/SUP]Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. [SUP]24 [/SUP]So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. [SUP]25 [/SUP]But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,

Here is the reasoning:

1. Colossians 2:16-17 groups food and drink offerings, the Sabbath and annual festivals together.

2. Food and drink offerings were imposed until the time of Reformation..which was when Christ came and died for our sins
per Hebrews 9:10-12.

3. Galatians 3:16-25 provides further support that the Old Covenant was only in effect until Christ came and died for our
sins. It is no longer in effect.

4. Since Colossians 2:16-17 groups food and drink offerings, the Sabbath and annual festivals together, they are under the
same level of applicability to the New Covenant believer.

5. Additionally, Hebrews 10:1-2 uses the same language of "shadows of things to come" in reference to animal sacrifices that
is applied to the Sabbath and Holy Days, placing them in this same category of inapplicable things.

As indicated on other posts, an additional point is that Hebrews 10:1-2 uses the same reference of "shadow of things to come" in reference to the animal sacrifices as Colossians 2:16-17 uses in regards to the Sabbath, Holy Days, food and drink offerings.

Hebrews 10:1-2 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins?


The reasoning that the Sabbath and Holy Days do not apply to New Covenant Christians is inescapable. If someone wants to observe them, fine, but don't accuse other non-observant individuals of being false Christians or being in sin. Believers should not allow those claiming that such things apply to judge them...which is one of the favorite pasttimes of some. They usually like to accuse them of being false Christians or "so-called Christians"...or spiritually inferior to themselves.

Pagans didn't want celebrations that they observed being different than there's. They hated righteousness that was being practiced by the believers in Collosia.

You seem to be able to tell me more about HRM that I can tell you about that movement because your more educated on it than I am.

In order to understand the truth of the light, a shadow is cast shining on some type of substance. First is light, and then there's substance that casts a shadow. The substance was a "mystery" before Christ revealed it, and was ministered to the Gentiles via Paul. Now because of the New Covenant, we can understand the substance that casts the shadow. Get rid of any three of these entities, and the other 2 don't exist in the form God would desire us to see.

No light, no shadow,
No substance no shadow,
No shadow no light,
and the light without substance casts no shadow.
but if there i still light and substance, then a shadow is sure to be seen unless we don't want to see the reflection of the substance and turn away on purpose.

It's all three or it's all incomplete.
All three makes it all complete.
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#34
Jesus sure spent a lot of time teaching from the Hebrew bible. why would he do all that if those books have no purpose today?
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
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#35
The law about the clean and unclean food one states that he does not eat pork, shellfish, or any of the other foods listed as unclean in Leviticus 11:1-23 and Deuteronomy 14

Gen 9:3
3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
KJV

1 Tim 4:1-5
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
KJV


I view the Dietary Laws of Lev chapter 11 and Deu chapter 14 as a parentheses between Gen 9:3 and 1Tim 4:4.

I believe that their intent was simply a visible distinction between the nation of Israel and the surrounding people.

With all the food fads in modern society, they no longer even do that!
 

Sia12

Junior Member
Apr 24, 2015
29
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#36
No. The Law of Moses was never binding upon anyone but the Jew or a proselyte. Now, the old covenant has been removed and is no longer binding on anyone. But, the eternal principles upon which the law was established are also the foundational for the new covenant as well.
So,I was reading the old testament and got me thinking do we still have to obey the old testaments laws?
The 613 laws (Mitzvot) can be divided into several categories concerning not just dietary laws but G-d, Torah, signs and symbols, prayer and blessings, love and brotherhood, the poor and unfortunate, treatment of Gentiles, marriage divorce and family, forbidden sexual relations, times and seasons, business practices, employees servants and slaves, vows oaths and swearing, the Sabbatical and Jubilee years, the court and judicial procedure, injuries and damages, property and property rights, criminal laws, punishment and restitution, prophecy, idolatry, agriculture and animal husbandry, clothing, the firstborn, Kohanim and Levites, t'rumah tithes and taxes, the temple the sanctuary and sacred objects, sacrifices and offerings, ritual purity ad impurity, lepers and leprosy, the king, Nazarites, and war. Source[/Q

Thank you I understand now
 
S

sparkman

Guest
#37
Listen to Christ not man, Matt.5:18, Jesus said not one dot of Mosses law as changed, not even the food laws, the only thing changed are the blood ordinance, you no longer sacrifice animals, and Christ is now our Passover. God bless
Concerning Matthew 5:17-19 I have explained these verses in light of the New Covenant in this thread:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/115415-matthew-5-17-19-sabbathkeeping-claims.html

In addition, in order to expose the folly that the Sabbath, annual festivals and food laws still apply, study the questions on this thread..they will reveal the issues with this thinking:

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...questions-sabbath-festival-torah-keepers.html

Very few have tried to answer these questions as they reveal the contradictory nature of the reasoning employed by those who say that the Old Covenant ceremonial and ritualistic laws still apply...a position that I held myself as a former Sabbath and festival keeper.
 
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sparkman

Guest
#38
Jesus sure spent a lot of time teaching from the Hebrew bible. why would he do all that if those books have no purpose today?
There are underlying spiritual principles that individuals with the Holy Spirit can discern. The specific applications don't apply, but the spiritual principles do.

In addition, many of them pointed toward Jesus Christ as their fulfillment. Animal sacrifices are clearly some of those.
 
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sparkman

Guest
#39
Sabbaths, annual festivals, clean and unclean meats, and clothing stipulations of the Old Covenant caused a division between Israelites and their neighboring nations.

This is clearly what is being spoken of. The Old Covenant is no longer applicable. It served a purpose of division, just like it causes here. Judaizers clearly try to use ceremonial and ritualistic elements of the Law to distance themselves from others as more holy or more obedient or even saved while others are not.

I can show examples of this from New Testament accounts and from the actions of individuals here:

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...-old-covenant-observance-causes-division.html

I also have evidence of this from my own life as a former Sabbath and festival keeper. No one who failed to keep the Sabbath, holy days, clean and unclean meats, and triple tithing was considered to be saved in our group.

That is why I won't associate with Sabbath or festival keepers anymore. I would have no issue attending a church with such leanings if they weren't judgmental, but invariably they are...and in addition, they don't focus on Jesus Christ and salvation through him. It is all about the need to keep the Old Covenant ceremonial and ritualistic laws.

That scripture is very easy to misunderstand.
Verse 15 as you highlighted that customs/ordinances/regulations (namusa) were traditions of the Pharisees, not of Torah/Law itself.

Ephesians 2:15, "namusa" (Aramaic) in context can only mean, TRADITION, as defined "commandments of men", which may be an attempt at "extending the use" of a "Written TORAH commandment", but lack the "Spirit of TORAH". Instead of "setting free", they "lead to bondage", unjust practices, and are burdensome, when applied in certain cases, such as is mentioned in Ephesians 2:15, and elaborated upon, by Yahshua, in Matthew Chapter 23.

contained in "Ordinances" = 1379 (Greek). dogmatizo dog-mat-id'-zo from 1378; to prescribe by statute, i.e. (reflexively) to submit to, ceremonially rule:--be subject to ordinances.

This is where we get the word "dogmatic" meaning '
inclined to lay down principles that are not able to be denied or disputed to be true.'
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
183
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#40
Jesus sure spent a lot of time teaching from the Hebrew bible. why would he do all that if those books have no purpose today?

I don't believe that Sparkman, or anyone else will argue that the OT has "NO PURPOSE".

The Law was originally given to Israel as a guideline for successful living. Rabbinic tradition attempted to change the Law into a pathway to righteousness; which it was NEVER intended to be.


The historical books give us insights into which attitudes are pleasing to the Father; and which attitudes lead us away from fellowship with God


The Psalms and Proverbs instruct us in specific principles in living a life which is pleasing to God; and avoiding things which anger Him.

The books of Prophesy record God's attempts to help Israel avoid chastisement. They also help us understand how to minimize or avoid chastisement. Prophesy also gives us insight into what lies ahead and how to deal with it.

What, IMO, Sparkman is trying to say is that the Law IS NOT and NEVER WAS a pathway to righteousness.