CONDEMNATION IS THE ROOT CAUSE

[Grace777x70]

Believe in being born again? I've never read that in the bible. I've always read believe in Christ. Believing in being born again sounds like faith in one's spiritual nature. Salvation by knowing who we really are.

The bible says that we know Jesus by doing his words. Salvation by simply knowing something in the mind (like our identity) is salvation by knowing (gnosis).

G1108 γνῶσις gnosis (gno`-sis) n.
1. knowing (the act)

So, we are now not to believe that we have been born-again?

I know you have told me that people are not born again until they get new bodies in the future. Salvation is realized in our lives because we believe in what Jesus said. This is "doing the words " of Jesus.

John 6:29 (NASB)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."


We believe in Him. Salvation is because we are in Christ and we are saved by His life.

Jesus is now lying to us?

John 3:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'


And Peter was lying to us when he said.

1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

I am amazed at what lengths people will go to completely ignore the gospel of Christ.

Hebrews 12:15 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;

 

[ukok102nak]

as it is written
:read:
1 Corinthians 2:14
Now the natural man does not receive the things of God's Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Corinthians 14:10
There are, it may be, so many kinds of sounds in the world, and none is without meaning.

:ty:

godbless us all always

 

[PeterJens]

Okay so you don't believe that Christ is in you and you are in him is what you are saying?

You use very religious language. Christ is a physical being. He is in heaven with the Father.
Paul uses the language if Christ is in you as a shortened way of saying, if you are transformed by Christs work in your heart you are His.

Jesus is saying no person can know Jesus is the Christ without the Father revealing it from heaven. To come to faith is rebirth, but it does not put Christ literally in you, only the Holy Spirit dwells in His people.

Now the problem with all this language is it can get confusing. We do not have literally the trinity in us, though we can be one with them. Some have taken the language of Paul and ended up with God being one but only ever expressed singularly.

Mystical in the sense I am using this is the idea of fusing of spirits and consciousness between beings, or becoming an eternal being when before there was only a mortal vessel before. We are not little gods woken up from a sleep.

I distinguish this from as humans we stay humans, though born into a spiritual relationship with God, we are still human as before, but now with spiritual life. We are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, but as a communion rather than a fusing.

Mystic can also be used in the sense of desiring communion with the eternal through contemplation and meditation, which I have no problems with and think we should desire to follow.

Mystical also covers astral travelling, out of body experiences, talking with the dead, performing magic etc. It is here I also have problems, and this starts to become sinful.

Your desire appears to suggest I am moving away from devotion to Christ. I am actually encouraging obedience, and the desire to follow in purity and righteousness, empowered by the cross and the Holy Spirit. What I mean by empowered by the cross is seeing God coming and dying for us, picturing this emotionally, historically, physically, tangibly. This changes us. It may seem very earthly and self effort, but this is the healing the cross brings, as well as bearing our sins, delivering salvation, new life, the Kingdom of Heaven to our hearts. How would you react if the queen came to your home? God has come to visit, not in our minds and hearts alone but physically also in Christ on earth.

 

[gb9]

where is this " mystical" stuff coming from?? is this going to be the buzz word around here??? peter, dude no one is saying or speaking against obedience , obedience is a huge part of the Christian life. for the 1000th time, we are not saved or kept by works, works are a result of salvation, not a cause.

 

[Grace777x70]

Paul talks about "in Christ" 140x times in the scriptures. To say that Christ is not in us is spiritual ignorance gone to seed and it is anti-the gospel thinking.

I want to say one thing about "identity". Our enemy always tries to mirror in the natural world what the Lord is doing. Jesus is revealing to us what He has already done and that we are children of God now! The understanding of who we are in Christ because of our union with Him is paramount to growing up in Him and having Him live through and in us to a hurt and dying world.

( Can you imagine a non-Christian coming on this thread and seeing the hatred in some posts towards our fellow brethren..that will want to make them want to come to Christ... )

You can see that in the world the enemy is getting people all confused about their identity - we have transgendered people - non-gender people - people separating from others in the same countries because of ethnicity.

This is the enemies way of having his form of identity because spiritually this is what our Lord is teaching us by His Spirit - who we are in Christ because we are one with Him.

We are children of God NOW. When you see who you really are in Christ - you will "be" and our behavior will reflect this transformed life in us outwardly.

Religion says "Do things in order to be". The true Christian life says "being who you are will result in doing".

 

[Grace777x70]

where is this " mystical" stuff coming from?? is this going to be the buzz word around here??? peter, dude no one is saying or speaking against obedience , obedience is a huge part of the Christian life. for the 1000th time, we are not saved or kept by works, works are a result of salvation, not a cause.

This "mystical" accusation is just religious nonsense to get us to rely on our own self-effort and not on Christ Himself.

Now according to this religion Christ is not in us and if people say that Christ is in us - the they are "mystical". ( even though being "mystical" actually means being spiritual...that's the hilarious part of this whole garbage talk. )


My goodness - I can't believe how much the gospel of the grace of Christ has been perverted. Now being born-again is mystical and we are not to consider it. Believing that Jesus through His blood has made us righteous is "mystical" and we are not to consider that either......Christ being in us and being one with our spirit is "mystical". This is all "gnostic" beliefs now? This is just spiritual nonsense gone completely to seed.

 

[PeterJens]

Peter you are speaking from the knowledge of your natural mind.. Of course we know the things of the spirit do not make sense to our minds... You keep using the word mystical like it has a completely different meaning to it than what it does... I will end here because otherwise I am going round and around in circles with u again..

You summarise my problem with your theology and belief system. I am not talking of my natural mind, I am talking about what the bible means, plain and simply.

It is possible your view of spiritual reality is true. The problem is this has to be reflected in scripture which it is not.
Once one identifies your theology is a separate belief system, based on a mystical experience, which is where it appears to be coming from.

So your language says, poor person, you are only talking in your mortal, unbelieving state. But you have special knowledge, conveyed by your mystical experience. I do not expect anything else, because of where your theology is coming from.

At least we know where we stand. Praise the Lord.

 

[Grace777x70]

The term "mystically" scripturally means = spiritual. The "application" of that term in some people's minds is where things go AWOL.

Here is a scripture that talks about "mystically" which the Greek word means "spiritually".

Revelation 11:8 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

[FONT="Galatia Sil" !important]πνευματικῶς[/FONT] [FONT="Gentium" !important]pneumatikōs[/FONT] adv - Spiritually.

Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary, The - The Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary – Pi-Rho.

In truth all true Christians are mystics because we are born again spiritually in our inner man created in Christ in righteousness and holiness. This is a complete mystery to the natural mind of man.

The natural mind of man cannot understand spiritual things, so to them - being mystic has really been changed to be a bad term and unfortunately it is used in that context too - as a derogatory term to "label" people and thus marginalize their beliefs in Christ only for salvation which is by grace through faith in Christ's finished work.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

No. We are One with Him. You also if you are in Christ. We are His Body. We are His Temple. My life is hid in Him. I am not Christ, I am in Christ. It is not I who live, but Christ in me. So where am I? I'm in Him. I believe the crux of this statement is that we are united with Him. Hence Paul says I can do ALL things THROUGH CHRIST who strengthens me. A lot of people skip over the In, By, and Through's in Christ because they don't understand it. I've prayed for years to Holy Spirit to help me understand what in Christ meant. There is a book written on it that's about 400+ pages. Just on what "in Christ" means and how it is all Scripturally connected.

The difference between Christianity and gnosticism is that Christians believe that they are one spirit with the lord, and gnostics believe that they themselves are one with the lord.

Gnostics only identify with the inner man (the new spiritual creation), and the outer man (the flesh) is considered to be inconsequential and ignored (because it is only evil and cannot participate in salvation). Thus, because they consider themselves to be spirit beings, they themselves are one with Christ and their whole identity becomes this indistinguishable union.

Christians recognize that they are not spirit beings, but humans (body, soul, spirit) who are joined together in one spirit with the human lord. Thus they operate as one body through one spirit, not through some mysterious conjunction of being.

Christians are one spirit with the lord just as a husband and wife are one flesh. Yet they are two separate individuals with distinct identities who operate together as one body. The spirit of love allows them to operate as one, but they are not one co-joined being. Dysfunctional marriages result when one spouse (or both) makes the other spouse his/her identity.

 

[PeterJens]

This "mystical" accusation is just religious nonsense to get us to rely on our own self-effort and not on Christ Himself.

By definition there are two models.
1. Jesus does everything, and we just have to recognise it and give in
2. Jesus shows us the path we have to walk and we walk it.

The phrase come follow me, explains the way of Jesus, not have this mystical experience and just give in to the new spirit within and it will just happen.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The term "mystically" scripturally means = spiritual. The "application" of that term in some people's minds is where things go AWOL.

Here is a scripture that talks about "mystically" which the Greek word means "spiritually".

Revelation 11:8 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

[FONT="Galatia Sil" !important]πνευματικῶς[/FONT] [FONT="Gentium" !important]pneumatikōs[/FONT] adv - Spiritually.

Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary, The - The Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary – Pi-Rho.

In truth all true Christians are mystics because we are born again spiritually in our inner man created in Christ in righteousness and holiness. This is a complete mystery to the natural mind of man.

The natural mind of man cannot understand spiritual things, so to them - being mystic has really been changed to be a bad term and unfortunately it is used in that context too - as a derogatory term to "label" people and thus marginalize their beliefs in Christ only for salvation which is by grace through faith in Christ's finished work.

Congratulations, Peter. you've (we've?) successfully broken down one barrier and gotten Grace777x70 to admit that he is a mystic, and he sees nothing wrong with it.

 

[Grace777x70]

Congratulations, Peter. you've (we've?) successfully broken down one barrier and gotten Grace777x70 to admit that he is a mystic, and he sees nothing wrong with it.

Amen!...I believe that I am "mystically" ( spiritually as in the biblical use of the word ) joined to the Lord because of the new birth in Christ. Imagine believing in Jesus? What will these mystics say next?

To people that deny being born-again by believing in Christ , like yourself - this is all mystic nonsense to them. HeRose if you do not believe Chrisitans are born again - it becomes apparent that you must do your own righteousness in order to be with the Lord when you die. This is anti-Christ beliefs.

We are called "believers" for a reason!

Just because people use the term mystically in a derogatory way to dis-credit the grace of God - doesn't mean we are not joined spiritually to the Lord. Paul was such a mystic...I wonder if he had enough good works to go to heaven?

1 Corinthians 6:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

Actually there are heretic-hunter websites that do say Paul was a heretic...lol

 

[gb9]

By definition there are two models.
1. Jesus does everything, and we just have to recognise it and give in
2. Jesus shows us the path we have to walk and we walk it.

The phrase come follow me, explains the way of Jesus, not have this mystical experience and just give in to the new spirit within and it will just happen.

and, congratulations to you peter for admitting that you do not depend on the finished work of Christ, by the fact that you asked these questions you showed that.

 

[gb9]

Congratulations, Peter. you've (we've?) successfully broken down one barrier and gotten Grace777x70 to admit that he is a mystic, and he sees nothing wrong with it.

well, the both of you think it is o.k. to stand over other people in judgement, and see nothing wrong with that. self-examine much???

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

By definition there are two models.
1. Jesus does everything, and we just have to recognise it and give in
2. Jesus shows us the path we have to walk and we walk it.

The phrase come follow me, explains the way of Jesus, not have this mystical experience and just give in to the new spirit within and it will just happen.

1. Knowing GOD by not doing
2. Knowing GOD by doing

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

well, the both of you think it is o.k. to stand over other people in judgement, and see nothing wrong with that. self-examine much???

GOD is his judge. Spiritual men are given the authority to discern all things.

 

[gb9]

GOD is his judge. Spiritual men are given the authority to discern all things.

correct. discern, not judge. ever ponder the phrase " he who is without sin, cast the first stone" now lets see, hmmm, how many stones were cast???

 

[Grace777x70]

Romans 1:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

[SUP]17 [/SUP] For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

Notice - it is God's righteousness that is revealed - not our own. And how does this come - by faith to faith. Believe in Christ's work and we will experience His salvation in our lives here on this earth.

Ephesians 6:18-19 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints,

[SUP]19 [/SUP] and pray on my behalf, that utterance may be given to me in the opening of my mouth, to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel,

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

correct. discern, not judge. ever ponder the phrase " he who is without sin, cast the first stone" now lets see, hmmm, how many stones were cast???

I guess in your church exposing sin and false doctrine is judging people. No thanks. I won't be showing up there this Sunday.

 

[Grace777x70]

Originally Posted by gb9

correct. discern, not judge. ever ponder the phrase " he who is without sin, cast the first stone" now lets see, hmmm, how many stones were cast???

I guess in your church exposing sin and false doctrine is judging people. No thanks. I won't be showing up there this Sunday.

Maybe gb9's church preaches about being born-again before one can even see the kingdom of God. Maybe they teach you must believe in Christ too.

Maybe they believe that it's by grace through faith in Christ's finished work that they are saved and have now eternal life because they are "in Christ" - just like Jesus said.

What heretical things will they come with next?..that Jesus' blood redeemed us?

It might not be a good place for some people to go for sure with it's heretical beliefs in Christ...