Is the Hebrew Roots Movement a cult?

[JGIG]

12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends." (from Jn. 15)​

Law doesn't teach you that; the Holy Spirit does.

Another thing that's come to me as I've read your posts exalting the Law:

12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you." (from Jn. 16)​

I don't see you glorifying Christ and His Work; only the Law. That's not the Holy Spirit doing that through you. Just sayin'.

-JGIG

We KNOW you don't see anything but the law, that is what we are trying to get across to you. Law (instructions is a better word) is important after salvation, but your obsession with it is blinding you to everything else.

Instructions are things you get with assemble-at-home furniture or a new bike. If you disobey them, you'll have a goofy looking book case or bike, but there is no death penalty for not following the instructions.

Law is law because it carries penalties. Calling the Laws given at Sinai 'instructions' is a method used to water them down to make them seem 'keepable'.

HRMers preach One Law Theology, quoting Mt. 5:17-19 (not one jot or tittle has passed), and then in the next breath say the Law is still binding except for the parts that aren't. Um . . . jots and tittles, anyone?

I write a lot more about that here:

Is Law Really Law Without Enforcement?​

-JGIG

 

[Linda70]

A "jot" is the smallest letter of the Hebrew alphabet. Jesus used this word to emphasize that every part of Scripture will be fulfilled (Matthew 5:17-18). This expresses the highest possible view of biblical inspiration.

A "tittle" is a tiny mark used to distinguish between letters in the Hebrew alphabet (Matthew 5:18). The Lord Jesus Christ was saying that even the smallest detail of the Word of God is authoritative and will be preserved by God.

 

[JGIG]

You can all talk on and on about how God as explained in the Torah must be eliminated from our world, that Christ was not part of creation, that the 4,000 years of history has no impact on us, but I cannot believe what you say is true. I do not believe that it is of God that you say to avoid the HRM who spreads knowledge of God as the Father of Christ. 78% of scripture is about Christ before He lived as a man, why would God give us that much to learn of Christ, and say not to listen? Of the NT 12% is quotations from the OT. Yet you tell me that we must know all of God based on this 10% of scripture.

I cannot believe that your telling me that you know God and any of the idea of knowing Christ through the roots, too, is wrong.

We will have to wait until we meet our Lord at our death to find out if you are right and I am wrong. It is quite a gamble.

Fib #1 - "You can all talk on and on about how God as explained in the Torah must be eliminated from our world,"

Fib #2 - " . . . that Christ was not part of creation,"

Fib #3 - " . . . that the 4,000 years of history has no impact on us,"

False conclusion - " . . . but I cannot believe what you say is true."

Fib #4 - "Yet you tell me that we must know all of God based on this 10% of scripture."

Fib #5 - "I cannot believe that your telling me that you know God and any of the idea of knowing Christ through the roots, too, is wrong."

RedTent - danschance didn't say any of those things. You simply made them up and then drew a false conclusion based on stuff he never wrote.

Then you throw out this: "We will have to wait until we meet our Lord at our death to find out if you are right and I am wrong. It is quite a gamble."

No, it's not a gamble. The Scriptures are clear. And if you are in Christ, there is no 'gamble'; there is assurance of faith in Christ.

Doubt in the sufficiency of Christ is one of the first seeds sown by the HRM belief system. And that's sad, because Christ is all sufficient \o/!

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

God is not dead. God is eternal, and all scripture explaining His essence thousands of years ago is explaining His essence today. Christ and God are one. "Dead" does not apply to any scripture. The temple at Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD, and completely destroyed in 135 AD. The spiritual temple, and all that word should mean to us was never destroyed.

All of scripture is applicable to us, even the 613 laws. These laws, for instance has the word temple in them. These laws has God's love for us in them and how we can live the life on this earth that God wants for us. It uses a lifestyle long past, instructions to priests that Christ replaced, it talks to a world that had no jails as we do, but we are to see the spiritual essence of these laws and how justice for all should be our goal.

We are not to read scripture in a legalistic way, as you seem to be saying, and we are not to read scripture without seeing how our world and the world of the spirit is connected. But we ARE to read scripture.

Do you know why the Law "talks to a world that had no jails as we do"?

Because those who sinned certain sins were put to death.

You ready to start stoning rebellious children?

Sabbath-breakers?

Adulterers?

Thieves?

Murderers?

How will that work, exactly?

Will you preach Christ to them just before you throw rocks at them until they are dead?

Tell us, what does a Torah observant society look like and how is it compatible with the Gospel?

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Whatever Law people dont want to follow, usually it Sabbath, that is usually the big one, 9 are ok, 10, NOPE...

You cherry pick Shaul well.

But Shaul (Paul) is recorded in Acts keeping the Feasts of Yahweh after his conversion.

and he said this:

Acts 24:14, "14 But I confess this to you, that after the way which they call heresy--so I worship the Father of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets."

If you deeply study Romans 7 and 8 you will see the law that shaul is dead to is the law of sin.

Romans 7:25, "Thanks be to Yahweh, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of Yahweh, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin."

KJV, "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."

Read through the letter to the Galatians again, Hizikyah; there were a number of YEARS where Paul did not keep the Feasts.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

One that ignores all those verses that clearly say he kept Yahweh's Law.

Acts 24:14, "14 But I confess this to you, that after the way which they call heresy--so I worship the Father of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets."

Believing, not observing.

Paul believes all the things that were written in the Law and the Prophets - that they pointed to Christ and the New Covenant.

Then he walked in and preached the Gospel of Grace - the New Covenant - that to which the Law and the Prophets pointed.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

This is from the same passage as the above Isayah 66, and perteining to the food thing danschance brought up.

If the nrew heavens and earth are here and all the old "works" are already burnt up....

Isayah 66:17, "They who sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens, following after the one in the midst
of those who eat swine's flesh, that which is offered to gods and the rodent--will be consumed together: says Yahweh."

Why is nobody honoring Sabbath like v23 says and why are there still millions of people "eating swines flesh," Yahweh says they will be consumed before the new heavens and earth?

(and any attacks at me for this statement please refer those attacks to the SCRIPTURES, for this is what Isayah 66 says, NOT ME.)

Hizikyah - tell us, what is the penalty for eating unclean meats according to the Law?

Is it being 'consumed'?

Please, show us from the Law what the penalty for eating unclean meats is. And use Scripture.

Then let's talk about what Isaiah 66 is really talking about.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Are we now comparing apples to lizards? Are we really going to determine what a vision means by yet another vision??

You reject what I am saying? Fine, that is your choice. Many ignored what Jesus said too.

Apples to lizards . . .

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Prove to me the vision is only about gentiles?
What is the vision about?
What does kill and eat imply when applied to unclean animals?

Yes, it does apply to gentiles. It also applies to food, even if you can not see or understand that. What is the vision about?
Answer: The end to the concept of clean and unclean. It is another example of tearing down the old ways to make room for the new ways.

Yes. It is not an 'either/or' but a 'both/and' teaching. Food was a huge issue when it came to fellowship, and the dietary laws were one of the major things which kept Israel separate from the nations, and setting aside that law was key in the spreading of the Gospel to every tribe and nation.


These free audios explain it really well:

What is the penalty for eating a bacon double cheeseburger? The one set of laws that are likely the easiest to obey are often emphasized by many as the key to being blessed by God. However, it is very unusual to find someone who knows what the penalty is for violating these laws. Regardless of the penalty or personal benefits, Aaron explains how and why the dietary laws were an integral part of the salvation we now have in the Lord Jesus.

​

• 
  [*=1]The Dietary Laws 1
  [*=1]The Dietary Laws 2

-JGIG

 

[JaumeJ]

This post could just as easily have been, Is the __________ Movement a cult?

Fill in the blank, Catholic, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Baptist, Methodist, Four Square, Evangelical, etc. No two agree, and deep down when one has made his choice of man-made dogmas, all others to him will appear to be a cult, and if they require a name to separate themselves from believers of the Word, they ARE a cult...........go figure!

 

[Timeline]

He had Timothy circumcised because he was a Pharisee and believed in the Torah, as all his letters testify. He did not waste time arguing about what of the gospel was most important, Christ or circumcision. So we find that circumcision is not the important thing that you are making it. Timothy belonged to God with or without circumcision, not, as many say, only belonging to God if he wasn't circumcised as that would be Judaism.

Any time anyone puts the law first, whose worship of the Lord is centered on doing or not doing the law, as you are doing, they are out of line with scripture. The law has to do with our walk AFTER we are saved, our salvation comes first.

Circumcision was given even before the law. How do you say that it was not important? What was this about?:

Exodus 4:24-26 [SUP]24 [/SUP]Now it came about at the lodging place on the way that the Lord met him and sought to put him to death. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Then Zipporah took a flint and cut off her son’s foreskin and threw it at Moses’ feet, and she said, “You are indeed a bridegroom of blood to me.”[SUP]26 [/SUP]So He let him alone. At that time she said, “You are a bridegroom of blood”—because of the circumcision.

Why did God not put him to death? You do know that circumcision was the sign given to Abraham for the covenant from God! I am the one making a big deal about circumcision?

Genesis 17:11

1. And you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be the sign of the covenant between Me and you.
   
   Maybe it's more important that you think it is!!!
   
   Here, I copied and pasted, you can do your own study:
   
   Romans 15:8
2. For I say that Christ has become a servant to the circumcision on behalf of the truth of God to confirm the promises given to the fathers,
3. Romans 15:7-9 (in Context) Romans 15 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
4. Galatians 5:2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
   Galatians 5:1-3 (in Context) Galatians 5 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
5. Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
   Galatians 5:5-7 (in Context) Galatians 5 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
6. Philippians 3:3 for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,
   Philippians 3:2-4 (in Context) Philippians 3 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
7. Colossians 2:11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;
   Colossians 2:10-12 (in Context) Colossians 2 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations

 

[RedTent]

That's a joke, right?

-JGIG

No, it is not for a joke, it is to get on the subject of HRM. You keep being on the subject of law. The HRM is an outgrowth of the information about the roots of our faith, not about law. God is not law. You are making it all about such physical things as rituals. If they explore rituals, it is not the kind you are saying, for rituals are not law. they look into the roots, you are constantly changing the subject to make it about superficial things. God is spirit and truth, if you talk about God you would have to know to speak about spirit and truth. Law without that is nothing. Yet your discussion centers on superficial law.

 

[RedTent]

OK, so you cannot discuss scripture, and our discussion is only throwing out such as "liars" "fibs". My suggestion that you get out bible to discuss these things becomes only an accusation that I have descended to your level, it becomes in your posts not anything to do with using bible for talk, but a basis of childish talk. My conclusion is that you are representing the organized church, and the organized church is too superficial, too legalistic, too uninformed about bible except for the 10% of bible that is new in the NT, and without any of the rest of the bible taken seriously cannot think about God.

No wonder Christ will return to judge us all. Thank you Lord, there is a remnant of people who look to God. So you guys have away with your angers and finger pointing without scripture to back it!! We cannot talk, I can see, with scripture guiding us for you are not guided by scripture but by things that are not of God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Circumcision was given even before the law. How do you say that it was not important? What was this about?:

Exodus 4:24-26 [SUP]24 [/SUP]Now it came about at the lodging place on the way that the Lord met him and sought to put him to death. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Then Zipporah took a flint and cut off her son’s foreskin and threw it at Moses’ feet, and she said, “You are indeed a bridegroom of blood to me.”[SUP]26 [/SUP]So He let him alone. At that time she said, “You are a bridegroom of blood”—because of the circumcision.

Why did God not put him to death? You do know that circumcision was the sign given to Abraham for the covenant from God! I am the one making a big deal about circumcision?

Genesis 17:11

1. And you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be the sign of the covenant between Me and you.
   
   Maybe it's more important that you think it is!!!
   
   Here, I copied and pasted, you can do your own study:
   
   Romans 15:8
2. For I say that Christ has become a servant to the circumcision on behalf of the truth of God to confirm the promises given to the fathers,
3. Romans 15:7-9 (in Context) Romans 15 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
4. Galatians 5:2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
   Galatians 5:1-3 (in Context) Galatians 5 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
5. Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
   Galatians 5:5-7 (in Context) Galatians 5 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
6. Philippians 3:3 for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,
   Philippians 3:2-4 (in Context) Philippians 3 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
7. Colossians 2:11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;
   Colossians 2:10-12 (in Context) Colossians 2 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations

maybe because of what Paul said.

if your going to get circiumcized, you will be indebted to obey the whole law.

 

[RedTent]

Circumcision was given even before the law. How do you say that it was not important? What was this about?:

Exodus 4:24-26 [SUP]24 [/SUP]Now it came about at the lodging place on the way that the Lord met him and sought to put him to death. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Then Zipporah took a flint and cut off her son’s foreskin and threw it at Moses’ feet, and she said, “You are indeed a bridegroom of blood to me.”[SUP]26 [/SUP]So He let him alone. At that time she said, “You are a bridegroom of blood”—because of the circumcision.

Why did God not put him to death? You do know that circumcision was the sign given to Abraham for the covenant from God! I am the one making a big deal about circumcision?

Genesis 17:11

1. And you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be the sign of the covenant between Me and you.
   
   Maybe it's more important that you think it is!!!
   
   Here, I copied and pasted, you can do your own study:
   
   Romans 15:8
2. For I say that Christ has become a servant to the circumcision on behalf of the truth of God to confirm the promises given to the fathers,
3. Romans 15:7-9 (in Context) Romans 15 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
4. Galatians 5:2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
   Galatians 5:1-3 (in Context) Galatians 5 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
5. Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
   Galatians 5:5-7 (in Context) Galatians 5 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
6. Philippians 3:3 for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,
   Philippians 3:2-4 (in Context) Philippians 3 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
7. Colossians 2:11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;
   Colossians 2:10-12 (in Context) Colossians 2 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations

A man who can speak from scripture!! Wonderful!! Usually, when copy and paste scripture is given, we don't have room for all that applies, you have given people who don't read bible a good sample.

You are making my point. Circumcision is important but only as an expression of faith, to come after faith. The physical part of circumcision is not what is important, it is the spiritual circumcision. We now have the Holy Spirit to guide us in circumcision after Christ.

It is the same with all law. Those against the HRM say that the physical is what is important, and only the physical counts. If the physical is ever used it becomes sin, not anything to do with the spiritual. They are obsessed with the physical, so if anyone uses the physical in any way to explore the ways of God, they are up in arms. So they throw out anything and everything, even putting aside a day to give just to the Lord's care of us. Not all, but many say because Christ is our rest we deny Christ by actually resting as we do this.

If some in the HRM go too far with giving importance to the physical instead of giving importance to Christ, they also are going too far. God is spirit and truth, our churches have forgotten that. The HRM are bringing this back, by finding the spirit and truth of God. All those opposed are opposed only because they are blind to this, they can only see the physical of God, the rituals.

 

[Grandpa]

A man who can speak from scripture!! Wonderful!! Usually, when copy and paste scripture is given, we don't have room for all that applies, you have given people who don't read bible a good sample.

You are making my point. Circumcision is important but only as an expression of faith, to come after faith. The physical part of circumcision is not what is important, it is the spiritual circumcision. We now have the Holy Spirit to guide us in circumcision after Christ.

It is the same with all law. Those against the HRM say that the physical is what is important, and only the physical counts. If the physical is ever used it becomes sin, not anything to do with the spiritual. They are obsessed with the physical, so if anyone uses the physical in any way to explore the ways of God, they are up in arms. So they throw out anything and everything, even putting aside a day to give just to the Lord's care of us. Not all, but many say because Christ is our rest we deny Christ by actually resting as we do this.

If some in the HRM go too far with giving importance to the physical instead of giving importance to Christ, they also are going too far. God is spirit and truth, our churches have forgotten that. The HRM are bringing this back, by finding the spirit and truth of God. All those opposed are opposed only because they are blind to this, they can only see the physical of God, the rituals.

Matthew 23:26-28
[SUP]26 [/SUP]Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

The Lord didn't really care for their rituals. He was interested in what was inside and how that affects the whole person. The HRM is trying to bring back the rituals that clean the outside of the cup.


Matthew 15:9-14

[SUP]9 [/SUP]But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
[SUP]13 [/SUP]But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.


You don't have any understanding of the rituals because they are spiritually discerned. If you did understand the rituals you wouldn't go back to them because you would know that the rituals themselves do nothing. They only guide you to the One they were designed to point you to, the Lord Jesus Christ.

It's like seeing all these signs on the road and saying "those are our instructions from God for our living". The signs on the road are to get you to a destination. After you reach your destination you don't go back to the signs telling people you must follow them. You stay at your destination and you tell others who are misunderstanding the signs that they are there for a purpose. To Lead you to the Real, to the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Lord said that there would be people who don't understand. If any truly wish to understand they must go to the Lord. Not backward to their own understanding of what rituals and the children of the flesh did.

 

[crossnote]

This post could just as easily have been, Is the __________ Movement a cult?

Fill in the blank, Catholic, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Baptist, Methodist, Four Square, Evangelical, etc. No two agree, and deep down when one has made his choice of man-made dogmas, all others to him will appear to be a cult, and if they require a name to separate themselves from believers of the Word, they ARE a cult...........go figure!

so there are not degrees of error from the truth. you'd say baptists are as much a cult as Jim Jones?

 

[RedTent]

Matthew 23:26-28
[SUP]26 [/SUP]Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

The Lord didn't really care for their rituals. He was interested in what was inside and how that affects the whole person. The HRM is trying to bring back the rituals that clean the outside of the cup.


Matthew 15:9-14

[SUP]9 [/SUP]But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
[SUP]13 [/SUP]But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.


You don't have any understanding of the rituals because they are spiritually discerned. If you did understand the rituals you wouldn't go back to them because you would know that the rituals themselves do nothing. They only guide you to the One they were designed to point you to, the Lord Jesus Christ.

It's like seeing all these signs on the road and saying "those are our instructions from God for our living". The signs on the road are to get you to a destination. After you reach your destination you don't go back to the signs telling people you must follow them. You stay at your destination and you tell others who are misunderstanding the signs that they are there for a purpose. To Lead you to the Real, to the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Lord said that there would be people who don't understand. If any truly wish to understand they must go to the Lord. Not backward to their own understanding of what rituals and the children of the flesh did.

You know the rituals themselves do nothing, you are coming ahead, Grandpa. No one will read that when I post it. And you even know they are "spiritually discerned". Strange way of putting it, but you know they have a spiritual meaning. Keep posting that, maybe some others will know, too. No one will read my posts.

Now, if you will post that learning the spiritual meaning of the rituals is not a bad thing as they all say!

 

[Dude653]

so there are not degrees of error from the truth. you'd say baptists are as much a cult as Jim Jones?

Exaggerate much??

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You know the rituals themselves do nothing, you are coming ahead, Grandpa. No one will read that when I post it. And you even know they are "spiritually discerned". Strange way of putting it, but you know they have a spiritual meaning. Keep posting that, maybe some others will know, too. No one will read my posts.

Now, if you will post that learning the spiritual meaning of the rituals is not a bad thing as they all say!

learning what they mean, and continuing to follow them is not the same.