Is the Hebrew Roots Movement a cult?

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Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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The beginning of Christianity started with a handful of Jews, grew among the Jews and then expoded on to the world. Christianity has now made inroads into every country. So those snared in the HRM want to believe we should all be like the jews were, torah observant. They claim Paul was torah observant and point to the times he did Jewish activites and they ignore what Paul said about them.

They ignore the clear words of Paul who says he is not under the law himself, but engages in the law to win those under the law and this is not the law of sin he is referring to. He is clearing referring to the law of Moses. So when he was with the Jews, of course he observed the same things they do. Of course he went to synagogues and the temple and observed feast so that he could convert Jesus to becoming Christians.
No you twist his writing.


Acts 24:14, "14 But I confess this to you, that after the way which they call heresy--so I worship the Father of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets."

If you deeply study Romans 7 and 8 you will see the law that shaul is dead to is the law of sin.

Romans 7:25, "Thanks be to Yahweh, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of Yahweh, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin."

KJV, "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."

2 Kepha 3:15-16, "...Shaul, in accordance with the wisdom given to him, has written to you, As also in all his letters, speaking in them about these things, in which are some things hard to be understood, which those who are unlearned and unstable twist, as they also do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."
 

Timeline

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2014
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The beginning of Christianity started with a handful of Jews, grew among the Jews and then expoded on to the world. Christianity has now made inroads into every country. So those snared in the HRM want to believe we should all be like the jews were, torah observant. They claim Paul was torah observant and point to the times he did Jewish activites and they ignore what Paul said about them.



They ignore the clear words of Paul who says he is not under the law himself, but engages in the law to win those under the law and this is not the law of sin he is referring to. He is clearing referring to the law of Moses. So when he was with the Jews, of course he observed the same things they do. Of course he went to synagogues and the temple and observed feast so that he could convert Jesus to becoming Christians.
Right, Paul did not want to waste time arguing when he could "follow" the law enough so that he could get in the door and talk to them. That is why he had Timothy baptized because he knew that it would be made into an issue. So in order to avoid problems before he could teach, he had Timothy circumcised.

16 Paul came also to Derbe and to Lystra. And a disciple was there, named Timothy, the son of a Jewish woman who was a believer, but his father was a Greek, [SUP]2 [/SUP]and he was well spoken of by the brethren who were in Lystra and Iconium. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Paul wanted this man to go with him; and he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in those parts, for they all knew that his father was a Greek. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Now while they were passing through the cities, they were delivering the decrees which had been decided upon by the apostles and elders who were in Jerusalem, for them to observe. [SUP]5 [/SUP]So the churches were being strengthened in the faith, and were increasing in number daily.

It even says in the text, because of Jews who were in those parts; He did not do it to comply with the law.
 
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Larry_Stotle

Guest
When did he tell you his reasoning behind keeping the Feasts?
It's implied in his statements "littered" through his letters.

Also Shaul says there is no difference between Jew and Gentile, so that is not a Spiritually true argument.
How so?

1 Thessalonians 5:1, "But concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need that I should write to you."

Most have no clue what this verse means.
I'm not sure you do other than you taking out of it's context (didn't you accuse me of cherry picking).

I'm sure you can invent some "theology" around that has nothing to do with the context.
 
Oct 31, 2011
8,200
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The Lord Jesus didn't take any of the scriptures away from me or anyone else.

He gave me understanding of them. He didn't need to teach me Hebrew or Greek. He was able to teach me without them. I wasn't a scholar or a history buff. I was just a regular, average guy.

So now I don't need to rely on my understanding or on my strength or on my works. I rely on His. The gift He has given me and the work He does in me.

1 Corinthians 1:26-29
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
[SUP]27 [/SUP]But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
[SUP]29 [/SUP]That no flesh should glory in his presence.


So now, if I wasn't wise, but now appear to be it is the work of the Lord. If I wasn't mighty, but now appear to be, it is the work of the Lord. If I wasn't noble, but now appear to be, it is the work of the Lord. You might be able to see a theme here...

I wasn't anything but the Lord saved me anyway.

You think I am trying to do away with the Law, but I'm not. I'm trying to show Christians that they don't need the bondage of Judaism to be Holy before the Lord. In fact, Judaism is an impediment to the Christian. See Galatians...

Its nice to have an understanding of the Blood of the Lamb.
Its nice to have an understanding of Rest.
Its nice to have an understanding of what the feasts were celebrating.

But to go back and practice the ways of your strength and your will when you know they won't get you anywhere is futility. Why not trust the One who saved you to begin with? Surely He must have some future plans for you if He went through all that trouble. You think it was so you could go back and be better at Judaism than the Pharisees?

Romans 9:30-33

[SUP]30 [/SUP]What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
[SUP]32[/SUP]Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
[SUP]33 [/SUP]As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
By making the personal decision not to look at the Hebrew language, to discount history, but follow only your own mind as infallible in only listening to God, you are getting some things wrong. We are to use what God makes available to us.
 
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danschance

Guest
No you twist his writing.


Acts 24:14, "14 But I confess this to you, that after the way which they call heresy--so I worship the Father of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets."

If you deeply study Romans 7 and 8 you will see the law that shaul is dead to is the law of sin.

Romans 7:25, "Thanks be to Yahweh, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of Yahweh, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin."

KJV, "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."

2 Kepha 3:15-16, "...Shaul, in accordance with the wisdom given to him, has written to you, As also in all his letters, speaking in them about these things, in which are some things hard to be understood, which those who are unlearned and unstable twist, as they also do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."

The law of sin which Paul says his flesh obeys, is NOT the law of God. You are inventing new and absurd theology. In fact it is in opposition to every law of God. You have fallen down another rabbit and say I am wrong, but all I have said is word for word what Paul wrote. Deeply study all of what Paul wrote and you will see what he means by being under the law of God or in other words the law of Christ.

Paul wrote:

"Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ." Gal 6:2

"To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law." 1Cor. 9:21
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
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It's implied in his statements "littered" through his letters.



How so?



I'm not sure you do other than you taking out of it's context (didn't you accuse me of cherry picking).

I'm sure you can invent some "theology" around that has nothing to do with the context.
KJV Galatians 3:28, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

Romans 2:10-12, "But glory, honor, and peace to every man who works righteousness: to the Yahdai first, and also to the Greek. For there is no respect of persons with Yahweh. For as many as have sinned without the Law, will also perish without the Law, and as many as have sinned in the Law, will be judged by the Law."

Originally Posted by Larry_Stotle

In the new heavens and earth that exists today after the old heavens and earth of Moses and the covenant people was destroyed in 70AD John states in his revelation there is no more sea, we are all earth in Christ - neither Gentile nor Jew.

(Rev 21:1 KJV) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

The new heavens and new earth do not exist today. WOW.

But if it did:

Isayah 66:22-23, "For as the new heavens and the new earth which I will make will remain before Me, says Yahweh: so will your seed and your name remain. And it will come to pass that from one New Moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, all flesh will come to worship before Me, says Yahweh."

Why are you not (if you are not) honoring Sabbath? For it is clearly written.



I'm sure you can invent some "theology" around that has nothing to do with the context.
Exodus 12:48-49, "And when a stranger lives among you and wants to sacrifice the Passover to Yahweh, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near, and sacrifice it; and he shall be as a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person shall eat of it. One Law shall be for the nativeborn and for the stranger who dwells among you."

And seeing how half of them are looking foreward to the 2nd coming of Messiah, why woulf they be discarded as "old?"

That is why:

Hebrews 4:1, "Therefore, since a promise of entering His rest remains..."

Colossians 2:17, "which are a shadow of the things to come..."

The 7th day Sabbath points to the 1,000 yr reign and the remaining unfulfilled Feast days point to Messiah's return.

Oh, and Yahweh said to honor His Feasts perpetually, for all generations.

Leviticus 23:21, "And you shall proclaim on that same day that it may be a Holy Convocation to you. You shall do no regular work on it. It shall be a statute forever in all your dwellings throughout your generations."
 
Oct 31, 2011
8,200
182
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Right, Paul did not want to waste time arguing when he could "follow" the law enough so that he could get in the door and talk to them. That is why he had Timothy baptized because he knew that it would be made into an issue. So in order to avoid problems before he could teach, he had Timothy circumcised.

16 Paul came also to Derbe and to Lystra. And a disciple was there, named Timothy, the son of a Jewish woman who was a believer, but his father was a Greek, [SUP]2 [/SUP]and he was well spoken of by the brethren who were in Lystra and Iconium. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Paul wanted this man to go with him; and he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in those parts, for they all knew that his father was a Greek. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Now while they were passing through the cities, they were delivering the decrees which had been decided upon by the apostles and elders who were in Jerusalem, for them to observe. [SUP]5 [/SUP]So the churches were being strengthened in the faith, and were increasing in number daily.

It even says in the text, because of Jews who were in those parts; He did not do it to comply with the law.
He had Timothy circumcised because he was a Pharisee and believed in the Torah, as all his letters testify. He did not waste time arguing about what of the gospel was most important, Christ or circumcision. So we find that circumcision is not the important thing that you are making it. Timothy belonged to God with or without circumcision, not, as many say, only belonging to God if he wasn't circumcised as that would be Judaism.

Any time anyone puts the law first, whose worship of the Lord is centered on doing or not doing the law, as you are doing, they are out of line with scripture. The law has to do with our walk AFTER we are saved, our salvation comes first.
 
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Linda70

Guest
The beginning of Christianity started with a handful of Jews, grew among the Jews and then expoded on to the world. Christianity has now made inroads into every country. So those snared in the HRM want to believe we should all be like the jews were, torah observant. They claim Paul was torah observant and point to the times he did Jewish activites and they ignore what Paul said about them.
They ignore the clear words of Paul who says he is not under the law himself, but engages in the law to win those under the law and this is not the law of sin he is referring to. He is clearing referring to the law of Moses. So when he was with the Jews, of course he observed the same things they do. Of course he went to synagogues and the temple and observed feast so that he could convert Jesus to becoming Christians.
The apostle Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles, but he was also an ethnic Jew (Philippians 3:5-8). He was torah observant as a Pharisee (Philippians 3:6), but not after his conversion. The leaders of the church at Jerusalem counseled Paul to take a Mosaic oath, perhaps a Nazarite vow (Numbers 6:2-21), in order to satisfy the believing Jews who were zealous for the law. The Jerusalem church leaders said many were complaining that Paul was instructing Jews to forsake Moses. That was an accurate charge. Paul was doing precisely that. (Acts 21:18-26) Other than taking that "vow", Paul was not torah observant after his conversion. He did go into into the synagogues on the Sabbath (as his manner was...Acts 17:2)...but that was to "reason with" (share the Gospel with) the unsaved Jews "out of the Scriptures".

I think you have a typo danschance...I think you probably meant to say "to convert the Jews (not Jesus) to becoming Christians."
 
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Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
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The law of sin which Paul says his flesh obeys, is NOT the law of God. You are inventing new and absurd theology. In fact it is in opposition to every law of God. You have fallen down another rabbit and say I am wrong, but all I have said is word for word what Paul wrote. Deeply study all of what Paul wrote and you will see what he means by being under the law of God or in other words the law of Christ.

Paul wrote:

"Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ." Gal 6:2

"To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law." 1Cor. 9:21
Wow.
No you twist his writing.

Acts 24:14, "14 But I confess this to you, that after the way which they call heresy--so I worship the Father of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets."

If you deeply study Romans 7 and 8 you will see the law that shaul is dead to is the law of sin.

Romans 7:25, "Thanks be to Yahweh, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of Yahweh, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin."

KJV, "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."

2 Kepha 3:15-16, "...Shaul, in accordance with the wisdom given to him, has written to you, As also in all his letters, speaking in them about these things, in which are some things hard to be understood, which those who are unlearned and unstable twist, as they also do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."
Acts 21:24 concerning Shaul (Paul) -

New International Version
Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law.


English Standard Version
take these men and purify yourself along with them and pay their expenses, so that they may shave their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you, but that you yourself also live in observance of the law.

New American Standard Bible
take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.

King James Bible
Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

Seems

2 Kepha 3:15-16, "...Shaul, in accordance with the wisdom given to him, has written to you, As also in all his letters, speaking in them about these things, in which are some things hard to be understood, which those who are unlearned and unstable twist, as they also do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."

Maybe some have been hoodwinked by Babylon...
 
D

danschance

Guest
The apostle Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles, but he was also an ethnic Jew (Philippians 3:5-8). He was torah observant as a Pharisee (Philippians 3:6), but not after his conversion. The leaders of the church at Jerusalem counseled Paul to take a Mosaic oath, perhaps a Nazarite vow (Numbers 6:2-21), in order to satisfy the believing Jews who were zealous for the law. The Jerusalem church leaders said many were complaining that Paul was instructing Jews to forsake Moses. That was an accurate charge. Paul was doing precisely that. (Acts 21:18-26) Other than taking that "vow", Paul was not torah observant after his conversion. He did go into into the synagogues on the Sabbath (as his manner was...Acts 17:2)...but that was to "reason with" (share the Gospel with) the unsaved Jews "out of the Scriptures".

I think you have a typo danschance...I think you probably meant to say "to convert the Jews (not Jesus) to become Christians."
Yes, I do type oddly at times. Even as an adult, I suffer from a residual form of ADD. So please bare with my occasional odd typos. :)


Yes, I am certain Paul was a very diligent Jew before his dramatic conversion. I can't wait to speak with him in heaven as I believe he is an extraordinary man who spread the gospel and planted churches where ever he went. I agree with everything you have said.
 
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Larry_Stotle

Guest
The new heavens and new earth do not exist today. WOW.

But if it did:

Isayah 66:22-23, "For as the new heavens and the new earth which I will make will remain before Me, says Yahweh: so will your seed and your name remain. And it will come to pass that from one New Moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, all flesh will come to worship before Me, says Yahweh."

Why are you not (if you are not) honoring Sabbath? For it is clearly written.
No need to get all dramatic with the red - a bit of bold is classy.

Yes we are in the new heavens and earth - this is figurative language just as it is Isaiah 51:16 - it's covenant creation language

(Isa 51:16 KJV) And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.

The above is speaking of the covenant made with Moses and the people.

Peter uses similar figurative language:

(2 Pet 3:12 KJV) Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

(2 Pet 3:13 KJV) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

A common mistake is to think the old heavens and earth are the physical things - elements in the Greek is stoicheion

What is interesting to note is his use of the world elements - in the Greek the word is (stoicheion)

We find it is used in only seven verses - twice in Peter's letter.

Col 2:8 KJV Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments (stoicheion) of the world, and not after
Christ.

Col 2:20 KJV Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments (stoicheion) of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Gal 4:3 KJV Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements (stoicheion) of the world:

Gal 4:9 KJV But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements (stoicheion) whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Heb 5:12 KJV For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles (stoicheion) of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

As can be seen from the above the usages of stoicheion (elements) all have to do with religious principles/teachings or philosophy and not atoms or elements of the physical world or universe.

The stoicheion that you are so proudly trying to proclaim are dust left in the ashes of the 70AD destruction of the Temple and it's cultus.
 
D

danschance

Guest
Wow.


Acts 21:24 concerning Shaul (Paul) -

New International Version
Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law.


English Standard Version
take these men and purify yourself along with them and pay their expenses, so that they may shave their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you, but that you yourself also live in observance of the law.

New American Standard Bible
take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.

King James Bible
Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

Seems

2 Kepha 3:15-16, "...Shaul, in accordance with the wisdom given to him, has written to you, As also in all his letters, speaking in them about these things, in which are some things hard to be understood, which those who are unlearned and unstable twist, as they also do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."

Maybe some have been hoodwinked by Babylon...

The early church was mostly Jewish and it took time to strip away the old ways of Judaism. Some early Christians known as Judaizers insisted on staying Jewish which caused Paul to write Galatians, in which he countered their claims. They insisted on circumcision and taught new gentile converts that they needed to be circumcised. Paul wrote in very terms that circumcision of the flesh is of no value and forbid it.

How can Paul be Torah observant is he is denying circumcision? How can he be Torah observant if he says:

19For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them. 20To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. 21To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. 22To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. 1Cor. 9:20-22
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
yeah that block of red was ugly, I did it to differentiate our words, note to sflf try not to use giant blocks of red txt its ugggggly.

I understand the "works" of this world will be burned up, but even this HAS NOT HAPPENED YET. When this happens there will be no more false doctrines, wars, murder, etc.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
The early church was mostly Jewish and it took time to strip away the old ways of Judaism. Some early Christians known as Judaizers insisted on staying Jewish which caused Paul to write Galatians, in which he countered their claims. They insisted on circumcision and taught new gentile converts that they needed to be circumcised. Paul wrote in very terms that circumcision of the flesh is of no value and forbid it.

How can Paul be Torah observant is he is denying circumcision? How can he be Torah observant if he says:
One that ignores all those verses that clearly say he kept Yahweh's Law.

Acts 24:14, "14 But I confess this to you, that after the way which they call heresy--so I worship the Father of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets."

If you deeply study Romans 7 and 8 you will see the law that shaul is dead to is the law of sin.

Romans 7:25, "Thanks be to Yahweh, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of Yahweh, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin."

2 Kepha 3:15-16, "...Shaul, in accordance with the wisdom given to him, has written to you, As also in all his letters, speaking in them about these things, in which are some things hard to be understood, which those who are unlearned and unstable twist, as they also do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction." Acts 21:24 concerning Shaul (Paul) -

Acts 21:24, "Take them, and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads. Then everyone will know that those things they were informed about you (forsaking the Law), were lies, and that you, yourself, walk orderly, and keep the Law."

The circumcision thing is I believe not fully understood today, back then the "main line" doctrine of circumcision was not simply entering into covenant with Yahweh but the teaching of the time was to be entering into covenant with the Talmud of the pharisees.

If Shaul said being circumcised is making one not saved then he screwed Timothy over, no rather being as the pharisees is making one not saved.

Now all this is subjective, which even if you disagree with me on a lot of matter I think you know I like only Scripture, but to be honest if we take all of your mentioned and my mentioned verses honestly and at "face value" there are bigger problems then our debate here.

Also if we look at Shaul as basically altering himself and his guide lines for the crowd that is a totally false action, Messiah stood firm and mocked false doctrine by purposely and blatantly breaking false laws and teachings, and yet Paul says be a follower of him as he is of Messiah, so I honestly, honestly think the modern world really twists up Shaul's writing "to their own destruction" when it is easy to hear and obey the one Yahweh said we must (the Messiah) and filter Shaul through Messiah, and not the entire word through Galatians.

This is why Kepha saud Shaul is hard to understand. When I read Shaul I bounce what he says of is other writing and the entire "NT" anything else brings upon error IMO.
 
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Larry_Stotle

Guest
The early church was mostly Jewish and it took time to strip away the old ways of Judaism. Some early Christians known as Judaizers insisted on staying Jewish which caused Paul to write Galatians, in which he countered their claims. They insisted on circumcision and taught new gentile converts that they needed to be circumcised. Paul wrote in very terms that circumcision of the flesh is of no value and forbid it.

How can Paul be Torah observant is he is denying circumcision? How can he be Torah observant if he says:
Exactly - It did take time for the "new thinking" or "new cloth" to get through to the early Jewish believers - we see that Peter was taken up with some of the Lawyers and Paul went toe to toe with him:

(Gal 2:11 KJV) But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

(Gal 2:12 KJV) For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

Also Jesus speaks of the lawyers trying to patch the new onto the old garment (the law):

(Mat 9:16 KJV) No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse.

(Mat 9:17 KJV) Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

The old garment wearers (the old law clothes) were still being zealous for it here:

(Acts 21:20 KJV) And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

We all know how that scenario ended for poor old Paul - rent is made worse indeed...
 
D

danschance

Guest
One that ignores all those verses that clearly say he kept Yahweh's Law.

Acts 24:14, "14 But I confess this to you, that after the way which they call heresy--so I worship the Father of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets."

If you deeply study Romans 7 and 8 you will see the law that shaul is dead to is the law of sin.

Romans 7:25, "Thanks be to Yahweh, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of Yahweh, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin."

2 Kepha 3:15-16, "...Shaul, in accordance with the wisdom given to him, has written to you, As also in all his letters, speaking in them about these things, in which are some things hard to be understood, which those who are unlearned and unstable twist, as they also do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction." Acts 21:24 concerning Shaul (Paul) -

Acts 21:24, "Take them, and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads. Then everyone will know that those things they were informed about you (forsaking the Law), were lies, and that you, yourself, walk orderly, and keep the Law."

The circumcision thing is I believe not fully understood today, back then the "main line" doctrine of circumcision was not simply entering into covenant with Yahweh but the teaching of the time was to be entering into covenant with the Talmud of the pharisees.

If Shaul said being circumcised is making one not saved then he screwed Timothy over, no rather being as the pharisees is making one not saved.

Now all this is subjective, which even if you disagree with me on a lot of matter I think you know I like only Scripture, but to be honest if we take all of your mentioned and my mentioned verses honestly and at "face value" there are bigger problems then our debate here.

Also if we look at Shaul as basically altering himself and his guide lines for the crowd that is a totally false action, Messiah stood firm and mocked false doctrine by purposely and blatantly breaking false laws and teachings, and yet Paul says be a follower of him as he is of Messiah, so I honestly, honestly think the modern world really twists up Shaul's writing "to their own destruction" when it is easy to hear and obey the one Yahweh said we must (the Messiah) and filter Shaul through Messiah, and not the entire word through Galatians.

This is why Kepha saud Shaul is hard to understand. When I read Shaul I bounce what he says of is other writing and the entire "NT" anything else brings upon error IMO.
Please read the resource listed in my last post. It explains it better than I can. The church had to transform from Judaism to Christianity. God did it slowly and very deliberately. Jesus stated flat out "It is not what goes into a (stomach) that defiles him, but what comes out of his mouth, that defiles him". Here Jesus is already tearing down the fibers of Judaism to make way for his new church.
 

Hizikyah

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Aug 25, 2013
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Please read the resource listed in my last post. It explains it better than I can. The church had to transform from Judaism to Christianity. God did it slowly and very deliberately. Jesus stated flat out "It is not what goes into a (stomach) that defiles him, but what comes out of his mouth, that defiles him". Here Jesus is already tearing down the fibers of Judaism to make way for his new church.
facepalm

"Thus Jesus declared all foods clean"

Mark 7:1-23, "Then the Pharisees and certain scribes came together to Him, having come from Yerusalem. 2 And when they saw some of His disciples eating bread with defiled-that is to say, unwashed--hands, they found fault. 3 (Now the Pharisees, and the Yahdaim generally, never eat without washing their hands, holding the tradition of the elders. 4 And when they come from the marketplaces, they do not eat unless they wash. And many other traditions they observe, such as the ritual washing of cups, pots, bronze utensils, and beds.) 5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him; Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands? 6 He answered, and said to them: Well has Isayah prophesied of you hypocrites--as it is written: This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. 7 But in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrine the commandments of men. 8 For laying aside the Law of Yahweh, you hold the tradition of men! 9 Then He said to them: How well you reject the Law of Yahweh, so that you may keep your own tradition! 10 For Mosheh said: Honor your father and your mother; and: Whoever curses father or mother, let him be put to death; 11 But you say; If a man will say to his father or mother: Anything of mine which might have benefited you is qorban (that is, a gift set apart for Yahweh)-- 12 You excuse him from doing what he is obligated to do for his father and his mother; 13 Making the Laws of Yahweh of no effect through your ctradition you have handed down! And many other similar things you do. 14 And when He had called all the people to Him, He said to them: Everyone, listen to Me and understand! 15 There is nothing from outside a man, that entering into him can defile him; but the things which come out of him, those are things which defile the man. 16 If any man has ears to hear, let him hear! 17 But when He had left the people and entered the house, His disciples asked Him about the parable. 18 He said to them; Are you also without understanding? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, 19 Because it does not enter into his heart but his stomach, and then into the toilet as all food is cleansed out? 20 Then He said: That which comes out of the man, that defiles the man; 21 For from within--out of the heart of men, dfrom his mind--proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 Thefts, lust, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, and foolishness-- 23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man."

Mark 7:1-23,

1 Then the Pharisees and certain scribes came together to Him, having come from Yerusalem.

2 And when they saw some of His disciples eating bread with defiled-that is to say, unwashed--hands, they found fault.

3 (Now the Pharisees, and the Yahdaim generally, never eat without washing their hands, holding the tradition of the elders.

4 And when they come from the marketplaces, they do not eat unless they wash. And many other traditions they observe, such as the ritual washing of cups, pots, bronze utensils, and beds.)

5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him; Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?

6 He answered, and said to them: Well has Isayah prophesied of you hypocrites--as it is written: This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me.

7 But in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrine the commandments of men.

8 For laying aside the Law of Yahweh, you hold the tradition of men!

9 Then He said to them: How well you reject the Law of Yahweh, so that you may keep your own tradition!

So clearly Yahshua the Messiah rebukes them for not only making their own "laws" but actually casting aside the Laws of Yahweh. Since foods neing clean or unclean is a common understand attached to this passage, let us consider if food Laws are man made or if the Creator made these Laws.

Genesis 7:1-2, "Then Yahweh said to Noah: Come into the ark, you and all your household, for I have seen you righteous before Me in this generation. You shall take with you seven pairs of every clean animal, a male and his female; two of animals that are unclean, a male and his female;"

Leviticus 11:1-2, "And Yahweh spoke to Mosheh and Aaron, saying to them: Speak to the children of Israyl, saying; These are the animals you may eat among all the beasts upon the land" 43-44, "You shall not make yourselves abominable with any creature that moves about on the ground. Do not defile yourselves by means of them, nor be made unclean by them. I am Yahweh your Heavenly Father. You shall therefore consecrate and sanctify yourselves, and you shall be holy; for I am holy. Neither shall you defile yourselves with any creature that moves about on the ground." 46-47, "This is the Law of the animals, and the birds, and every living thing that moves in the waters, and every creature that moves about on the ground. You must distinguish between the unclean and the clean--between the animal that may be eaten, and the animal that may not be eaten."

We can see these Laws literally came directly from the mouth of Yahweh, so when Messiah said: "How well you reject the Law of Yahweh, so that you may keep your own tradition!" It is clear He is not rebuking them for telling people to follow Yahweh's food Laws, but for their pharisee hand washing "law."

Malakyah 3:6-7, "For I am Yahweh, I change not; therefore you sons of Yaaqob are not consumed. Ever since the days of your fathers you have turned away from My ordinances, and have not kept them. Return to Me, and I will return to you! says Yahweh of hosts. But you said; How will we return?"

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

10 For Mosheh said: Honor your father and your mother; and: Whoever curses father or mother, let him be put to death;

11 But you say; If a man will say to his father or mother: Anything of mine which might have benefited you is qorban (that is, a gift set apart for Yahweh)--

12 You excuse him from doing what he is obligated to do for his father and his mother;

13 Making the Laws of Yahweh of no effect through your ctradition you have handed down! And many other similar things you do.

More evidence of the pharisees adding their own laws to the people why excusing themselves from following Yahweh;s Law.

14 And when He had called all the people to Him, He said to them: Everyone, listen to Me and understand!

15 There is nothing from outside a man, that entering into him can defile him; but the things which come out of him, those are things which defile the man.

16 If any man has ears to hear, let him hear!

17 But when He had left the people and entered the house, His disciples asked Him about the parable.

Because Messiah say: "nothing from outside a man, that entering into him can defile him" many that want to reject Yahweh;s food Laws say see I can eat! But when did context of Scripture not matter? In context the entire passage is about eating with "unwashed--hands." Can we completely roemove it from its context and expect to get the true meaning? Also if you consider verse 17, "His disciples asked Him about the parable," yet "all things are clean food" is taught as doctrine, not as parable........Again in context vesrse 17, parable. SO Meswsiah proceeds to explain further:

18 He said to them; Are you also without understanding? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him,

19 Because it does not enter into his heart; mind, but his stomach, and then into the toilet as all food is eliminated?

19 For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)

Now this is where the deception comes in, as you see I have shown verse 19 translated 2 different ways. Which one is correct? The second translation is the much more common translation, here is a short list of translations that match the second translation (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean): New International Version, New Living Translation, English Standard Version, New American Standard Bible, Holman Christian Standard Bible, NET Bible, GOD'S WORD Translation, English Revised Version, Weymouth New Testament.

We will look at the original language, but first I want to mention again, CONTEXT, can we somehow go from the whole topic being about a hand washing ritual and unclan animals not even being in the discussion to unclean animals are now food?



The first thing you will notice is the words, "In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean," are completely absent. Before moving on, I want to ask, why did someone feel the need to forge words into the text that are not there. Is it ok to just add words wherever I want? Of course not.

19 Because it does not enter into his heart but his stomach, and then into the toilet (856) as all food is cleansed out (2511)?

19 For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)

856 - aphedrón
aphedrón: a place of sitting apart, i.e. a privy, drain
Original Word: ἀφεδρών, ῶνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: aphedrón
Phonetic Spelling: (af-ed-rone')
Short Definition: a drain, latrine
Definition: a drain, latrine
Word Origin - from apo and hedraios
Definition - a place of sitting apart, i.e. a privy, drain

2511 - katharizó
katharizó: to cleanse
Original Word: καθαρίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: katharizó
Phonetic Spelling: (kath-ar-id'-zo)
Short Definition: I make clean
Definition: I cleanse, make clean, literally, ceremonially, or spiritually, according to context.
Word Origin - from katharos
Definition - to cleanse

20 Then He said: That which comes out of the man, that defiles the man;

21 For from within--out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,

22 Thefts, lust, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, and foolishness--

23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man."

No this is not about pork, it is about the pharisee making a show they are holy with their appearances, but Messiah is saying evil is that which should be guarded against.

This exact same account is also detailed in Mattithyah 15, and this is also shown there:

Mattithyah 15:2-3, "Why do Your disciples transgress the traditions of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat. But He answered, and said to them: And why do you transgress the Laws of Yahweh by your traditions?"

Mattithyah 15:17, "Do you not yet understand that whatever enters in at the mouth goes into the stomach, and then is cast out in elimination?"

But is we keep readin we see the meaning of the PARABLE:

Mark 7:17, " But when He had left the people and entered the house, His disciples asked Him about the parable."

Mattithyah 15:15, "But Kepha spoke, and said to Him; Explain this parable to us."

Kepha is Peter, so if all foods were cleansed why did Kepha years later still not eat unclean food?

Acts 10:14, "But Kepha said; By no means, Ruler, for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean."

Because Mark 7 & and Matt 15 were not about food but a pharisee hand washing ritual as the parable is explained here:

Mattithyah 15:20, "These are the things which defile a man--but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man."

As Acts 10 was not about food either:

Acts 10:28, "And he said to them; You yourselves are aware how it is not Lawful for a Yahdai to associate with one of another nation, or to enter his house; but Yahweh has shown me that I must not call any man common or unclean."

So in Mattithyah the parable is fully explained, yet in Mark it is not, is it possibe that is why those false words were added to Mark 7:19? If they were added to Mattithyah 15, it would have been a contradiction, but Mark having not being fully explained, it left the door open?
 

Hizikyah

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Aug 25, 2013
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Daniyl 7:25, "And he will speak great words against Yahweh, and will wear out the saints of Yahweh, and think to change times and Laws..."

Luke 24:25, "Then He said to them: O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!"
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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The new heavens and new earth do not exist today. WOW. But if it did:

Isayah 66:22-23, "For as the new heavens and the new earth which I will make will remain before Me, says Yahweh: so will your seed and your name remain. And it will come to pass that from one New Moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, all flesh will come to worship before Me, says Yahweh."
Yes we are in the new heavens and earth - this is figurative language just as it is Isaiah 51:16 - it's covenant creation language
This is from the same passage as the above Isayah 66, and perteining to the food thing danschance brought up.

If the nrew heavens and earth are here and all the old "works" are already burnt up....

Isayah 66:17, "They who sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens, following after the one in the midst
of those who eat swine's flesh, that which is offered to gods and the rodent--will be consumed together
: says Yahweh."

Why is nobody honoring Sabbath like v23 says and why are there still millions of people "eating swines flesh," Yahweh says they will be consumed before the new heavens and earth?

(and any attacks at me for this statement please refer those attacks to the SCRIPTURES, for this is what Isayah 66 says, NOT ME.)