Any Post or Non-Tribbers in Here?
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Your model of “rapture” takes place right before the great tribulation, that is denial of the Scripture. Do the math yourself and see when Enoch was “taken”, it was year 957; Noah was BORN on year 1031, and the Flood happened when he was 600. So Enoch did not necessarily have anything to do with the Flood more than 600 years later, you just made all these stuffs up to justify your theory.
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Why do you feel it necessary to cite a spirit of confusion to myself here - when I stated in another post that making such claims is a mistaken ambition. You ought to be more plain, sister, and say what you mean to say rather than abstract your meanings behind a veil of religious terminology. I would no more emphatically say that of yourself than you ought to say it of any other - be that myself or another brother - no matter what mine or his belief is - the doctrines of life excepted. There are spirits that bring confusion to the brethren - and yet it would be better to say it of a doctrine and not a rational claim that cannot be an issue of life.
Just to be plain. sister. I don't receive civility easily - I would rather be thrown into the gutter. Be very plain or else spare me any need for receiving civility. I do enjoy reading these threads and often find myself looking something up or trying to understand the merit of what is shared. And that - even when there are no Scriptural references to be easily seen. Have a great Ozzy day!
Just to be plain. sister. I don't receive civility easily - I would rather be thrown into the gutter. Be very plain or else spare me any need for receiving civility. I do enjoy reading these threads and often find myself looking something up or trying to understand the merit of what is shared. And that - even when there are no Scriptural references to be easily seen. Have a great Ozzy day!
My dwelling has focused on one word (prepare). Jesus has not came back yet but only His Spirit to guide us to Him.
John 14:1-6
New International Version
14 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”
5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
John 14:1-6
New International Version
14 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”
5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
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The real context of the passage is deception from the devil. Word on the street in Thessalonica was that Jesus had already returned and they’d missed it, Paul refuted that misinformation by setting some clear signals as the triggering events. “Revealing of the Lawless One” and “falling away” had a model, which was the arrest in Gesthemane. That was when Judas was revealed and all the disciples ran away.
The apostle Paul was saying to HIS DISCIPLES that he wanted to PRESENT THEM to the Lord pure. he gave the description `as a virgin.` That was Paul to his disciples whom he wanted to PRESENT TO Jesus.
BUT it is the Lord Himself who will PRESENT US to Himself, NOT Paul.
`Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling and TO PRESENT YOU faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy...` (Jude 24).
BUT it is the Lord Himself who will PRESENT US to Himself, NOT Paul.
`Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling and TO PRESENT YOU faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy...` (Jude 24).
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Well I suppose it is how we define prepare a place and how He came back.
To prepare a place is the New Jerusalem, New Heaven, New Earth.
To come back to the apostles could be the Spirit because that was probably when they we're sealed with the Spirit. The Spirit brought them to the day of salvation upon death.
To prepare a place is the New Jerusalem, New Heaven, New Earth.
To come back to the apostles could be the Spirit because that was probably when they we're sealed with the Spirit. The Spirit brought them to the day of salvation upon death.
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L
John chapter 14
[1] Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
[2] In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
[3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Hi, Lori.
The first thing that we need to determine here is exactly who Jesus was speaking to when he uttered these words.
These words were spoken at the last supper which was attended by Jesus and his twelve apostles:
“Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.” (Matt. 26:20)
“And in the evening he cometh with the twelve.” (Mark 14:17)
“And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.” (Luke 22:14)
By the time that Jesus had uttered these words as recorded in John 14:1-3, Judas had already left to betray Jesus:
John chapter 13
[27] And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
[28] Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him.
[29] For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor.
[30] He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night.
In light of these truths, Jesus was left speaking to 11 of his 12 apostles.
Is this significant?
Yes, as a matter of fact it is, and we’ll see why momentarily.
First, let’s look again at what Jesus said to these remaining 11 apostles:
John chapter 14
[1] Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
[2] In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
[3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Let’s ask ourselves the following question:
Where, exactly, is “my Father’s house” (vs. 2)?
The textbook answer is that it’s heaven, but that’s simply not true.
In reality, Jesus previously told us in this same gospel of John exactly what and where his Father’s house is when he said:
John chapter 2
[13] And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
[14] And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
[15] And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
[16] And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
[17] And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.
According to Jesus Christ, “my Father’s house” (vs. 16) or “thine house” (vs. 17) is “the temple” (vs. 14) in “Jerusalem” (vs. 13), and NOT heaven.
In relation to the same, Jesus said “In my Father’s house are many mansions” (John 14:2), but the translation of “mansions” here is a TERRIBLE translation.
The underlying Greek word which is here translated as “mansions” is “monē”:
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g3438/kjv/tr/0-1/
This word only appears twice in the underlying Greek text of the New Testament, and both appearances are in this same exact 14th chapter of John’s gospel.
Here is the other place where it appears, and here it is much better translated as “abode”:
“Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our ABODE with him.” (John 14:23)
In fact, most Bible translations don’t translate “monē” as “mansions” in John 14:2, but rather as “room”, “rooms”, “dwelling places”, “lodgings”, or “resting places”, and you can easily verify that for yourself here:
https://biblehub.com/john/14-2.htm
In the light of these things, when Jesus said “in my Father’s house are many mansions”, he was NOT saying that “in heaven there are many mansions”, but rather he said “in the temple in Jerusalem there are many rooms or dwelling places”.
Stay with me a moment.
If you do, then you’ll see how this is not only what he actually said, but that it also makes perfect sense.
Previously, Jesus had said the following in relation to these same remaining 11 apostles:
Matthew chapter 19
[27] Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
[28] And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Jesus had previously told these same 11 remaining apostles that “in the regeneration”, or when they get their glorified bodies at his second coming, “when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel”.
Concerning this timeline, this is not my own forced interpretation, but instead exactly what Jesus told us elsewhere.
We read:
Matthew chapter 25
[31] When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
[32] And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
[33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
At Christ’s second coming (he only comes twice – Heb. 9:27), he will not only “sit upon the throne of his glory” (Matt. 19:28, 25:31), but the 11 remaining apostles who he was actually speaking to in John 14:1-3 “also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel” (Matt. 19:28).
We’re told over and over and over and over again in scripture exactly where this “throne of glory” will be:
IN HIS FATHER’S HOUSE IN JERUSALEM.
Here is but one example of this reality:
Isaiah chapter 2
[1] The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
[2] And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
[3] And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
[4] And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Again, “Jerusalem” (vss. 1-3) is where “the LORD’s house” (vs. 2), or “the house of the God of Jacob” (vs. 3), or “my Father’s house” (John 2:16, 14:2) is truly located, and NOT in heaven.
Let’s look at our opening text one last time:
John chapter 14
[2] In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
[3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
In relation to “my Father’s house” or in relation to a last days temple in Jerusalem with “many rooms” in it, Jesus told these remaining 11 apostles that he was not only going to prepare a place for them there, but also that he would come again and receive them unto himself, that where he is, there they may be also.
Well, here’s an important question for all of us to ask ourselves:
When Jesus COMES AGAIN (vs. 3) and “receives” these 11 apostles to whom he was actually speaking “unto himself” (vs. 3), WHERE WILL HE BE?
Of course, he will be RIGHT HERE ON EARTH BECAUSE THAT IS WHERE HE’S COMING TO.
In other words, where’s the imaginary U-Turn back to heaven?
Of course, it’s absolutely nowhere to be found within the actual text.
Here’s what Jesus was actually saying here:
“In my Father’s house (the temple in Jerusalem) there are many mansions (rooms): if it were not so, I would have told you. I go (back to the Father in heaven) to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again (from heaven to this earth), and receive you unto myself (here on earth at my coming); that where I am (here on earth at my coming), there (here on earth) ye may be also.”
Again, where did Jesus mention anything about allegedly taking them back to heaven after he comes?
Once more, the correct answer is absolutely nowhere.
At Jesus’ second coming (again, he only comes twice – Heb. 9:27), when he comes to sit in the throne of his glory within his Father’s house or within the coming temple in Jerusalem, the 11 apostles to whom he was actually speaking “also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel” (Matt. 19:28).
Seeing how Christ’s throne will be in Jerusalem, and seeing how these 11 are going to judge the twelve tribes of Israel, Jesus merely informed them that there are rooms in his Father’s house in which they’ll dwell at that time.
Who has ears to hear, let them hear.
[1] Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
[2] In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
[3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Hi, Lori.
The first thing that we need to determine here is exactly who Jesus was speaking to when he uttered these words.
These words were spoken at the last supper which was attended by Jesus and his twelve apostles:
“Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.” (Matt. 26:20)
“And in the evening he cometh with the twelve.” (Mark 14:17)
“And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.” (Luke 22:14)
By the time that Jesus had uttered these words as recorded in John 14:1-3, Judas had already left to betray Jesus:
John chapter 13
[27] And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
[28] Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him.
[29] For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor.
[30] He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night.
In light of these truths, Jesus was left speaking to 11 of his 12 apostles.
Is this significant?
Yes, as a matter of fact it is, and we’ll see why momentarily.
First, let’s look again at what Jesus said to these remaining 11 apostles:
John chapter 14
[1] Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
[2] In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
[3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Let’s ask ourselves the following question:
Where, exactly, is “my Father’s house” (vs. 2)?
The textbook answer is that it’s heaven, but that’s simply not true.
In reality, Jesus previously told us in this same gospel of John exactly what and where his Father’s house is when he said:
John chapter 2
[13] And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
[14] And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
[15] And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
[16] And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
[17] And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.
According to Jesus Christ, “my Father’s house” (vs. 16) or “thine house” (vs. 17) is “the temple” (vs. 14) in “Jerusalem” (vs. 13), and NOT heaven.
In relation to the same, Jesus said “In my Father’s house are many mansions” (John 14:2), but the translation of “mansions” here is a TERRIBLE translation.
The underlying Greek word which is here translated as “mansions” is “monē”:
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g3438/kjv/tr/0-1/
This word only appears twice in the underlying Greek text of the New Testament, and both appearances are in this same exact 14th chapter of John’s gospel.
Here is the other place where it appears, and here it is much better translated as “abode”:
“Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our ABODE with him.” (John 14:23)
In fact, most Bible translations don’t translate “monē” as “mansions” in John 14:2, but rather as “room”, “rooms”, “dwelling places”, “lodgings”, or “resting places”, and you can easily verify that for yourself here:
https://biblehub.com/john/14-2.htm
In the light of these things, when Jesus said “in my Father’s house are many mansions”, he was NOT saying that “in heaven there are many mansions”, but rather he said “in the temple in Jerusalem there are many rooms or dwelling places”.
Stay with me a moment.
If you do, then you’ll see how this is not only what he actually said, but that it also makes perfect sense.
Previously, Jesus had said the following in relation to these same remaining 11 apostles:
Matthew chapter 19
[27] Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
[28] And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Jesus had previously told these same 11 remaining apostles that “in the regeneration”, or when they get their glorified bodies at his second coming, “when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel”.
Concerning this timeline, this is not my own forced interpretation, but instead exactly what Jesus told us elsewhere.
We read:
Matthew chapter 25
[31] When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
[32] And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
[33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
At Christ’s second coming (he only comes twice – Heb. 9:27), he will not only “sit upon the throne of his glory” (Matt. 19:28, 25:31), but the 11 remaining apostles who he was actually speaking to in John 14:1-3 “also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel” (Matt. 19:28).
We’re told over and over and over and over again in scripture exactly where this “throne of glory” will be:
IN HIS FATHER’S HOUSE IN JERUSALEM.
Here is but one example of this reality:
Isaiah chapter 2
[1] The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
[2] And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
[3] And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
[4] And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Again, “Jerusalem” (vss. 1-3) is where “the LORD’s house” (vs. 2), or “the house of the God of Jacob” (vs. 3), or “my Father’s house” (John 2:16, 14:2) is truly located, and NOT in heaven.
Let’s look at our opening text one last time:
John chapter 14
[2] In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
[3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
In relation to “my Father’s house” or in relation to a last days temple in Jerusalem with “many rooms” in it, Jesus told these remaining 11 apostles that he was not only going to prepare a place for them there, but also that he would come again and receive them unto himself, that where he is, there they may be also.
Well, here’s an important question for all of us to ask ourselves:
When Jesus COMES AGAIN (vs. 3) and “receives” these 11 apostles to whom he was actually speaking “unto himself” (vs. 3), WHERE WILL HE BE?
Of course, he will be RIGHT HERE ON EARTH BECAUSE THAT IS WHERE HE’S COMING TO.
In other words, where’s the imaginary U-Turn back to heaven?
Of course, it’s absolutely nowhere to be found within the actual text.
Here’s what Jesus was actually saying here:
“In my Father’s house (the temple in Jerusalem) there are many mansions (rooms): if it were not so, I would have told you. I go (back to the Father in heaven) to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again (from heaven to this earth), and receive you unto myself (here on earth at my coming); that where I am (here on earth at my coming), there (here on earth) ye may be also.”
Again, where did Jesus mention anything about allegedly taking them back to heaven after he comes?
Once more, the correct answer is absolutely nowhere.
At Jesus’ second coming (again, he only comes twice – Heb. 9:27), when he comes to sit in the throne of his glory within his Father’s house or within the coming temple in Jerusalem, the 11 apostles to whom he was actually speaking “also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel” (Matt. 19:28).
Seeing how Christ’s throne will be in Jerusalem, and seeing how these 11 are going to judge the twelve tribes of Israel, Jesus merely informed them that there are rooms in his Father’s house in which they’ll dwell at that time.
Who has ears to hear, let them hear.
The NJ is for the OT saints, (Heb. 11: 16) whereas for us we do not need a `mansion.` The word really is `dwelling place.` And for us our new body is what will clothe us. We don`t need a kitchen, a bathroom, a bedroom, laundry etc. That is all earthly thinking that has been falsely taught.
The Body of Christ does NOT comes down out of heaven, (Rev. 21: 2) but is in the third heaven with Christ on His throne. (Rev. 3: 21)
The Body of Christ does NOT comes down out of heaven, (Rev. 21: 2) but is in the third heaven with Christ on His throne. (Rev. 3: 21)
Yes that much was clear already. Sensing something and ignoring the sense is rather like feeling the heat of the Sun before waking up in the night vomiting from polymorphous light eruption. Either don't go into the Sun after sensing its strength or else be prepared to wake up vomiting. That would be a practical choice to make - but if we are determined to be prophetic - then we are bound to find some distress. No need to repeat your senses, sister. I got it plain and clear the first time you gave your careful expression its visibility.
L
Some of it does, but definitely not all of it.
Again, we read:
Matthew chapter 25
[31] When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
[32] And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
[33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Anyhow, John 14:1-3 says ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about Jesus taking anybody to heaven.
Instead, it talks about what will happen when he comes to this earth from heaven.
Just another imaginary U-Turn back to heaven for the pre-tribbers which is found nowhere in scripture.
Again, we read:
Matthew chapter 25
[31] When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
[32] And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
[33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Anyhow, John 14:1-3 says ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about Jesus taking anybody to heaven.
Instead, it talks about what will happen when he comes to this earth from heaven.
Just another imaginary U-Turn back to heaven for the pre-tribbers which is found nowhere in scripture.
There's a reaping of the earth by the Son of Man in Rev. 14:14-16, that's the fulfillment of the parable of wheat and tares in Matt. 13:24-30 and 13:36-43. If pre-trib rapture was supposed to be this "reaping", then all that's left would be the wicked tares, no "good son of the Kingdom" or "tribulation saints" would be left during the Great Tribulation, but obviously that's not the case according to the last book of the bible.
“There is a MAJOR DIFFERENCE between someone being raised from the dead in their physical body, only to die again later (as in the case of OT resurrections, Lazarus, the saints who arose in Matthew 27:51-52, etc., etc.),”
where does it say they died two times ? And then will be resurrected a second time ? Open mind but it seems like you are just adding that part is there anything to say they died again ?
“And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:”
Hebrews 9:27
“Then shall the dust return to the dust as it was:
and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”
Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV
the spirit goes here when the body dies
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
2 Corinthians 5:10 KJV
“For we must needs die, and are as water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again; neither doth God respect any person: yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him.”
2 Samuel 14:14 KJV
where does it say they died two times ? And then will be resurrected a second time ? Open mind but it seems like you are just adding that part is there anything to say they died again ?
“And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:”
Hebrews 9:27
“Then shall the dust return to the dust as it was:
and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”
Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV
the spirit goes here when the body dies
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
2 Corinthians 5:10 KJV
“For we must needs die, and are as water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again; neither doth God respect any person: yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him.”
2 Samuel 14:14 KJV
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