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[FONT="]22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.
To say we are all equal in Christ is truth but to say we are equal as male and female ? God does maintain his created order. To say it is a curse or because of one needs to be proven.[/FONT]
To say we are all equal in Christ is truth but to say we are equal as male and female ? God does maintain his created order. To say it is a curse or because of one needs to be proven.[/FONT]
L
how does this relate to the op?
this is another subject altogether and I am pretty sure has been very widely covered in the family forum
we are discussing curses...began with one, but have expanded...I don't think it will be wise to introduce this very debated subject into this thread
thanks for understanding
L
here's the passage being referred to from Genesis 3 for easy reference
for better understanding of what God said to Eve, see Yashua's post
included here:
Originally Posted by Yahshua
lol it may interests you to know that the Hebrew paints this curse for daughters of Eve in a slightly different way.
Genesis 3:16
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to {אֶל}thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
אֶל meaning "against" as the short definition.
Translated in scripture as:
- Against (162 times)
- Over (23 times)
- [facing] Toward (75 times)
- Before (11 times)
So we have something like..."and your desire will be {set against} your husband, and [yet] he shall rule over you." In other words, she'll oppose him from then on and yet he'll lead. This makes better sense and also fit's the crime since Eve led Adam instead of he leading her. It also pretty much explains why today...{mumbles quietly}...but thank God we're all new creatures in Christ.
Genesis 3
14 So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,
“Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[a] and hers;
he will crush[b] your head,
and you will strike his heel.”
16 To the woman he said,
“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.”
17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’
“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”
for better understanding of what God said to Eve, see Yashua's post
included here:
lol it may interests you to know that the Hebrew paints this curse for daughters of Eve in a slightly different way.
Genesis 3:16
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to {אֶל}thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
אֶל meaning "against" as the short definition.
Translated in scripture as:
- Against (162 times)
- Over (23 times)
- [facing] Toward (75 times)
- Before (11 times)
So we have something like..."and your desire will be {set against} your husband, and [yet] he shall rule over you." In other words, she'll oppose him from then on and yet he'll lead. This makes better sense and also fit's the crime since Eve led Adam instead of he leading her. It also pretty much explains why today...{mumbles quietly}...but thank God we're all new creatures in Christ.
Genesis 3
14 So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,
“Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[a] and hers;
he will crush[b] your head,
and you will strike his heel.”
16 To the woman he said,
“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.”
17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’
“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”
A
Nobody who is Christ's is under a curse. We are in the world, not of it. We are spiritual beings, our flesh having been crucified with Christ.
Btw, take notice that Ephesians 5 contains only 3 verses instructing wives, but 8 verses directing men to be completely Christ-like toward his wife. The 21st verse and the 33rd are telling both husband and wife to be submissive to one another and to love & respect each other.
Ephesians 5
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her
[SUP]26 [/SUP]to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,
[SUP]27 [/SUP]and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church—
[SUP]30 [/SUP]for we are members of his body.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]“For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”
[SUP]32 [/SUP]This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church.
[SUP]33 [/SUP]However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.
I've actually heard men say, "She expects me to act as perfect as Jesus." But on the other hand, they demand that their wife be submissive. C'mon! That's unrealistic. If any man expects their wife to reverence them, they should make Christ their own standard and treat their wife as radiant, holy and blameless.
Btw, take notice that Ephesians 5 contains only 3 verses instructing wives, but 8 verses directing men to be completely Christ-like toward his wife. The 21st verse and the 33rd are telling both husband and wife to be submissive to one another and to love & respect each other.
Ephesians 5
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her
[SUP]26 [/SUP]to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,
[SUP]27 [/SUP]and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church—
[SUP]30 [/SUP]for we are members of his body.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]“For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”
[SUP]32 [/SUP]This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church.
[SUP]33 [/SUP]However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.
I've actually heard men say, "She expects me to act as perfect as Jesus." But on the other hand, they demand that their wife be submissive. C'mon! That's unrealistic. If any man expects their wife to reverence them, they should make Christ their own standard and treat their wife as radiant, holy and blameless.
L
PLEASE
can we stay on topic and not introduce this wives obey your husbands passage?
Auntie I undertand your response cause that would be mine also
I get irritated when the first part of the passage is brought up, but the rest is left out
if we get into that now, I'm just gonna bow out of my own thread cause I did not start it to have that discussion
I hope everyone understands
I don't mean to be rude
thanks
can we stay on topic and not introduce this wives obey your husbands passage?
Auntie I undertand your response cause that would be mine also
I get irritated when the first part of the passage is brought up, but the rest is left out
if we get into that now, I'm just gonna bow out of my own thread cause I did not start it to have that discussion
I hope everyone understands
I don't mean to be rude
thanks
E
Nobody who is Christ's is under a curse. We are in the world, not of it. We are spiritual beings, our flesh having been crucified with Christ.
Btw, take notice that Ephesians 5 contains only 3 verses instructing wives, but 8 verses directing men to be completely Christ-like toward his wife. The 21st verse and the 33rd are telling both husband and wife to be submissive to one another and to love & respect each other.
Ephesians 5
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her
[SUP]26 [/SUP]to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,
[SUP]27 [/SUP]and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church—
[SUP]30 [/SUP]for we are members of his body.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]“For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”
[SUP]32 [/SUP]This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church.
[SUP]33 [/SUP]However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.
I've actually heard men say, "She expects me to act as perfect as Jesus." But on the other hand, they demand that their wife be submissive. C'mon! That's unrealistic. If any man expects their wife to reverence them, they should make Christ their own standard and treat their wife as radiant, holy and blameless.
Btw, take notice that Ephesians 5 contains only 3 verses instructing wives, but 8 verses directing men to be completely Christ-like toward his wife. The 21st verse and the 33rd are telling both husband and wife to be submissive to one another and to love & respect each other.
Ephesians 5
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her
[SUP]26 [/SUP]to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,
[SUP]27 [/SUP]and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church—
[SUP]30 [/SUP]for we are members of his body.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]“For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”
[SUP]32 [/SUP]This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church.
[SUP]33 [/SUP]However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.
I've actually heard men say, "She expects me to act as perfect as Jesus." But on the other hand, they demand that their wife be submissive. C'mon! That's unrealistic. If any man expects their wife to reverence them, they should make Christ their own standard and treat their wife as radiant, holy and blameless.
The church as the new creation is therefore not figured after the flesh .What we will be is not revealed . Only that we in our new bodies will be like the angels no capacity to reproduce. But we both in these bodies of death, are in it as two that will become one in our new bodies. .
In that way the husband is to act as that not seen, Christ the perfect, our husband after His seed.
But the woman having the greater representation as that outward , represents the whole bride of Christ made up of male and female. As two used to represent the whole church. This is as two woman or two men. Like Martha and Mary combined as one, or Moses and Arron, as one voice of God. .
Since the fruit comes after that not seen typified by Christ. Men give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise in respect to two as the husband coming in the gates. Seeing He is the door by which we both enjoy fellowship together as one.
The woman in the parable below can be used to represent the whole church as men who look to the flesh and woman who respond to the love of Christ unseen in their husbands. We always have room to give her the praise she deserves as we decrease and Christ increases in us. . We are the chaste virgin bride the church who together are considered the virtuous woman.. Christ’s bride.
Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies.The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil. She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life. She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands. She is like the merchants' ships; she bringeth her food from afar. She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens. She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard.She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms.She perceiveth that her merchandise is good: her candle goeth not out by night.She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff. She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy.She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household are clothed with scarlet.She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing is silk and purple.Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land.She maketh fine linen, and selleth it; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant. Strength and honour are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come.She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness. She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness. Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praiseth her. Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all.Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the LORD, she shall be praised. Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates. Pro 31:10-31
A church that that fears the LORD, His bride, shall be praised.
In that way the husband is to act as that not seen, Christ the perfect, our husband after His seed.
But the woman having the greater representation as that outward , represents the whole bride of Christ made up of male and female. As two used to represent the whole church. This is as two woman or two men. Like Martha and Mary combined as one, or Moses and Arron, as one voice of God. .
Since the fruit comes after that not seen typified by Christ. Men give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise in respect to two as the husband coming in the gates. Seeing He is the door by which we both enjoy fellowship together as one.
The woman in the parable below can be used to represent the whole church as men who look to the flesh and woman who respond to the love of Christ unseen in their husbands. We always have room to give her the praise she deserves as we decrease and Christ increases in us. . We are the chaste virgin bride the church who together are considered the virtuous woman.. Christ’s bride.
Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies.The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil. She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life. She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands. She is like the merchants' ships; she bringeth her food from afar. She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens. She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard.She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms.She perceiveth that her merchandise is good: her candle goeth not out by night.She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff. She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy.She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household are clothed with scarlet.She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing is silk and purple.Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land.She maketh fine linen, and selleth it; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant. Strength and honour are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come.She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness. She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness. Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praiseth her. Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all.Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the LORD, she shall be praised. Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates. Pro 31:10-31
A church that that fears the LORD, His bride, shall be praised.
A simplified definition for curse - to cause great harm or evil.
Source: Definition of curse - Merriam-Webster's Student Dictionary
God did not curse (cause great harm or evil) the woman or the man in Genesis.
God cursed the ground. Gen 3:17 God cursed the serpent. Gen 3:14
The word cursed is not used in reference to Adam or Eve.
Genesis 3:16 tells us that the consequence of Eve's sin is he (man) shall rule (master, dominate, lord) over you (woman).
God initially told the man (and woman) to "rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground." Gen 1:28
It wasn't until AFTER THE FALL that God said that he (Adam) shall rule over you (Eve).*That was a POST-FALL consequence of original sin and disobedience. Therefore, rather than provide loving, servant leadership for his wife (like Christ would later model for us) the man would rule, master, dominate and lord over the woman.
The OP asked, "Are women under a curse?"
The answer is very subjective.
Like I stated earlier, God did not curse Adam and Eve in Genesis. The word curse is not used in reference to Adam or Eve.
So if God didn't curse women with
great harm or evil, who is cursing women - causing them great harm or evil?
If we study history and read or watch the daily news, we can hear numerous accounts about great harm and evil (curses) being inflicted upon women. So, who is cursing women with great harm and evil? A lot of times, it's the men in their path.
For example, crimes against women (like sex trafficking) are at an all-time high. Adult women and young girls are being ruled, mastered, dominated, lorded over and cursed (caused great harm or evil) by the men who hold them captive.
There are still millions of women all around the world living in male-run societies where it's legal to beat, torture, castrate and murder women.
WHO | Female genital mutilation
Franklin Graham criticizes Muslim proposal to allow men to beat their wives 'lightly'
https://www.google.com/amp/amp.timeinc.net/time/4415554/honor-killing-qandeel-baloch/
China aborted millions of girls because of their 1 child policy. They prefer boys over girls.
The REAL War Against Women -- Forced Abortion and Gendercide in China - Christian Newswire
Sex trafficking and violence against women is still a huge problem in America. America is not exempt.
Human trafficking a growing crime in the U.S. - USATODAY.com
Black women have a* greater risk of becoming victims of homicidal domestic violence (I see this a lot in my local community.)
Black women at greater risk of becoming victims of homicidal domestic violence | Crime | Dallas News
Murder is a Top Killer of Pregnant Women
Murder Is One of Top Causes of Death for Pregnant Women - ABC News
So to answer your question, there is a lot of evidence to suggest that countless women are indeed being cursed with great harm or evil by men in their path, but GOD DID NOT CURSE THE WOMAN IN GENESIS. This is a result of how those men view women as inferior, evil, weak and rebellious; a lot of their ideology is derived from a misunderstanding of the Fall & the role of women.
I fully realize that not all men live and breathe simply to rule, master, dominate, lord over and curse women by inflicting great harm and evil upon them. There are some noble men out there who have allowed their minds to be renewed, so that they can view and treat women with love, honor and dignity. I do believe that there are SOME men like that right here on CC. I can tell by the kinds or uplifting, Christ-centered and balanced comments that they post. Unfortunately, there's not enough men like this in the world.
Source: Definition of curse - Merriam-Webster's Student Dictionary
God did not curse (cause great harm or evil) the woman or the man in Genesis.
God cursed the ground. Gen 3:17 God cursed the serpent. Gen 3:14
The word cursed is not used in reference to Adam or Eve.
Genesis 3:16 tells us that the consequence of Eve's sin is he (man) shall rule (master, dominate, lord) over you (woman).
God initially told the man (and woman) to "rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground." Gen 1:28
It wasn't until AFTER THE FALL that God said that he (Adam) shall rule over you (Eve).*That was a POST-FALL consequence of original sin and disobedience. Therefore, rather than provide loving, servant leadership for his wife (like Christ would later model for us) the man would rule, master, dominate and lord over the woman.
The OP asked, "Are women under a curse?"
The answer is very subjective.
Like I stated earlier, God did not curse Adam and Eve in Genesis. The word curse is not used in reference to Adam or Eve.
So if God didn't curse women with
great harm or evil, who is cursing women - causing them great harm or evil?
If we study history and read or watch the daily news, we can hear numerous accounts about great harm and evil (curses) being inflicted upon women. So, who is cursing women with great harm and evil? A lot of times, it's the men in their path.
For example, crimes against women (like sex trafficking) are at an all-time high. Adult women and young girls are being ruled, mastered, dominated, lorded over and cursed (caused great harm or evil) by the men who hold them captive.
There are still millions of women all around the world living in male-run societies where it's legal to beat, torture, castrate and murder women.
WHO | Female genital mutilation
Franklin Graham criticizes Muslim proposal to allow men to beat their wives 'lightly'
https://www.google.com/amp/amp.timeinc.net/time/4415554/honor-killing-qandeel-baloch/
China aborted millions of girls because of their 1 child policy. They prefer boys over girls.
The REAL War Against Women -- Forced Abortion and Gendercide in China - Christian Newswire
Sex trafficking and violence against women is still a huge problem in America. America is not exempt.
Human trafficking a growing crime in the U.S. - USATODAY.com
Black women have a* greater risk of becoming victims of homicidal domestic violence (I see this a lot in my local community.)
Black women at greater risk of becoming victims of homicidal domestic violence | Crime | Dallas News
Murder is a Top Killer of Pregnant Women
Murder Is One of Top Causes of Death for Pregnant Women - ABC News
So to answer your question, there is a lot of evidence to suggest that countless women are indeed being cursed with great harm or evil by men in their path, but GOD DID NOT CURSE THE WOMAN IN GENESIS. This is a result of how those men view women as inferior, evil, weak and rebellious; a lot of their ideology is derived from a misunderstanding of the Fall & the role of women.
I fully realize that not all men live and breathe simply to rule, master, dominate, lord over and curse women by inflicting great harm and evil upon them. There are some noble men out there who have allowed their minds to be renewed, so that they can view and treat women with love, honor and dignity. I do believe that there are SOME men like that right here on CC. I can tell by the kinds or uplifting, Christ-centered and balanced comments that they post. Unfortunately, there's not enough men like this in the world.
I believe that Adam and Eve weren't "flesh" until they sinned. That they were beings of light. So reproduction wouldn't occur until sin. I don't think God was putting a curse of pain on women, but stating a fact. It would hurt to bear a child.
I've heard stories too about those who believed there would be no pain if they had faith. That was early on in my walk with the Lord. But, I never knew anyone who experienced this.
Scripture states that anyone that trusts in the law, would have to obey all the law and that perfectly. So that would be the Jews. They remain under its curse, there is no further sacrifice for sin. Its a most serious offense to reject the Redeemer.
By the way, my belief about Adam and Eve being light beings is controversial and not expecting to change anyones thought about it. It just makes sense to me.
I've heard stories too about those who believed there would be no pain if they had faith. That was early on in my walk with the Lord. But, I never knew anyone who experienced this.
Scripture states that anyone that trusts in the law, would have to obey all the law and that perfectly. So that would be the Jews. They remain under its curse, there is no further sacrifice for sin. Its a most serious offense to reject the Redeemer.
By the way, my belief about Adam and Eve being light beings is controversial and not expecting to change anyones thought about it. It just makes sense to me.
Hmm...I think maybe the answer is "all of the above". People bring curses upon themselves through choice, but there are also preset consequences. God said in Isaiah 45:7:
I form light and create darkness; I make peace and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things.
And in Deuteronomy 30:19:
"This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. NOW CHOOSE life, so that you and your children may live"
So if we put it together; God has preset the path of blessings & life...and the path of curses & death, and then tells us to chose whichever path we will walk, even encouraging us to choose the right path. It's no different than the choice Adam and Eve had in the garden. A tree of life (and healing, as we read in Revelation) and a tree of certain death (with all the curses that followed).
He told them not to eat of the knowledge tree that would bring certain death (i.e. "choose life"). So they suffered the consequences of their choice (death condition), while receiving all the curses tied to that path.
Everyone knows the famous passage of John 3:16, but I think the rest of what Christ says is pretty significant:
John 3:16-21
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that does truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
The world stands *already condemned* because they choose the path of darkness, so their lives are already wrapped in curses, calamity and eventually death. I feel that without giving us the choice He couldn't express true love for us and we couldn't express true love for him. There had to be an antithesis.
...Now in addition to that I also believe people can enact curses upon themselves and others. As Proverbs 18:21 says...
21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.
We read in Genesis how Noah cursed Canaan's seed to be servants of the others, and from that we read God commanding Israel not to intermarry with the Canaanites. Then when we read in Genesis how Jacob blessed Joseph's younger sons to be greater than the older, and from then on God blessed Ephraim as the largest tribe of Israel. Then how about when Elisha cursed the people for teasing him about his bald head? Two bears appeared and killed the people. I think these things were possible because the Spirit of God was firmly with these men.
I think we must be very careful of what we say as believers in God in whom his Holy Spirit dwells.
Matthew 18:18-19
18 Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
19 Again, I tell you truly that if two of you on the earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by My Father in heaven
So if we, as believers and new creatures in Christ, say we're under a curse I think we may just very well loose one upon ourselves by faith. And if that's the case we should always be careful to speak blessings upon ourselves and others.
I form light and create darkness; I make peace and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things.
And in Deuteronomy 30:19:
"This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. NOW CHOOSE life, so that you and your children may live"
So if we put it together; God has preset the path of blessings & life...and the path of curses & death, and then tells us to chose whichever path we will walk, even encouraging us to choose the right path. It's no different than the choice Adam and Eve had in the garden. A tree of life (and healing, as we read in Revelation) and a tree of certain death (with all the curses that followed).
He told them not to eat of the knowledge tree that would bring certain death (i.e. "choose life"). So they suffered the consequences of their choice (death condition), while receiving all the curses tied to that path.
Everyone knows the famous passage of John 3:16, but I think the rest of what Christ says is pretty significant:
John 3:16-21
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that does truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
The world stands *already condemned* because they choose the path of darkness, so their lives are already wrapped in curses, calamity and eventually death. I feel that without giving us the choice He couldn't express true love for us and we couldn't express true love for him. There had to be an antithesis.
...Now in addition to that I also believe people can enact curses upon themselves and others. As Proverbs 18:21 says...
21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.
We read in Genesis how Noah cursed Canaan's seed to be servants of the others, and from that we read God commanding Israel not to intermarry with the Canaanites. Then when we read in Genesis how Jacob blessed Joseph's younger sons to be greater than the older, and from then on God blessed Ephraim as the largest tribe of Israel. Then how about when Elisha cursed the people for teasing him about his bald head? Two bears appeared and killed the people. I think these things were possible because the Spirit of God was firmly with these men.
I think we must be very careful of what we say as believers in God in whom his Holy Spirit dwells.
Matthew 18:18-19
18 Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
19 Again, I tell you truly that if two of you on the earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by My Father in heaven
So if we, as believers and new creatures in Christ, say we're under a curse I think we may just very well loose one upon ourselves by faith. And if that's the case we should always be careful to speak blessings upon ourselves and others.
I believe that Adam and Eve weren't "flesh" until they sinned. That they were beings of light. So reproduction wouldn't occur until sin. I don't think God was putting a curse of pain on women, but stating a fact. It would hurt to bear a child.
I've heard stories too about those who believed there would be no pain if they had faith. That was early on in my walk with the Lord. But, I never knew anyone who experienced this.
Scripture states that anyone that trusts in the law, would have to obey all the law and that perfectly. So that would be the Jews. They remain under its curse, there is no further sacrifice for sin. Its a most serious offense to reject the Redeemer.
By the way, my belief about Adam and Eve being light beings is controversial and not expecting to change anyones thought about it. It just makes sense to me.
I've heard stories too about those who believed there would be no pain if they had faith. That was early on in my walk with the Lord. But, I never knew anyone who experienced this.
Scripture states that anyone that trusts in the law, would have to obey all the law and that perfectly. So that would be the Jews. They remain under its curse, there is no further sacrifice for sin. Its a most serious offense to reject the Redeemer.
By the way, my belief about Adam and Eve being light beings is controversial and not expecting to change anyones thought about it. It just makes sense to me.
Before that they were naked and not ashamed, the light went out and they tried to cover that which was now exposed. Its just an opinion. but it could of been like the 1985 movie Cacoon . I am not promoting science fiction as a source of faith. This is where this foreign aliens like the believers whose citizenship as a birth right is in heaven, as creature was dying and his form became more visible.
It ends when humans are offered space aboard their Ark, Ship to the old people. Some chose to remain on Earth, but the others accepted the invitation by faith to travel to a world where they will never be ill, never age, and never die. The incorruptible
The woman in pain represents all believers, the chaste virgin bride of Christ. She in respect to the new heavenly Jerusalem, the eternal land not seen, is reckoned as the mother of us all. The freed bride made up of male and female, seeing we no longer know any person after the corrupted flesh. But look to a new kind, incorruptible
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.Gal 4:26
We can see that kind of principle working between two men .as one plants the seed the gospel in a hope God will cause the growth , as God forms Christ His Spirit in us.
Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
or below
2Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
Christ as our bloody husband
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.Gal 4:26
We can see that kind of principle working between two men .as one plants the seed the gospel in a hope God will cause the growth , as God forms Christ His Spirit in us.
Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
or below
2Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
Christ as our bloody husband
How is the curse no longer in effect? Do women not still seek homeopathic remedies, medication, or injections to help dull the pain of child birth? Has bearing a child become a painless endeavor ever since the crucifixion of Christ?
It’s important to remember that the curse was not only cast upon the woman, but also upon the man as well. A man would have to till the ground. Fruits and vegetables would no longer just spring forth without working for them. Both the man and the woman were subjugated to this extra work that they would have to endure after disobeying God.
With today’s advances in technology, the pain of childbirth can be substantially lessened, as well as heavy machinery to help with farming. This does not mean that those curses are not still in existence though. What is wrong is when a man tries to use the “that’s why God cursed you” language against a woman…conveniently leaving out the fact that the man was cursed too.
Both a curse and a blessing are shown biblically to be able to be passed down throughout lineage. Abraham is a prime example of this. Since Abraham obeyed God, God then blessed all of Abraham’s offspring.
Genesis 22:18 In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.
Just because this physical curse still continues for both man and woman, it in no way means that we are personally responsible or guilty for the choices of Adam and Eve. It is simply a consequence of their choices. Much the same as a father who gets arrested for a crime. The child is innocent of guilt, yet ends up bearing some of the repercussions of those actions.
It’s important to remember that the curse was not only cast upon the woman, but also upon the man as well. A man would have to till the ground. Fruits and vegetables would no longer just spring forth without working for them. Both the man and the woman were subjugated to this extra work that they would have to endure after disobeying God.
With today’s advances in technology, the pain of childbirth can be substantially lessened, as well as heavy machinery to help with farming. This does not mean that those curses are not still in existence though. What is wrong is when a man tries to use the “that’s why God cursed you” language against a woman…conveniently leaving out the fact that the man was cursed too.
Both a curse and a blessing are shown biblically to be able to be passed down throughout lineage. Abraham is a prime example of this. Since Abraham obeyed God, God then blessed all of Abraham’s offspring.
Genesis 22:18 In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.
Just because this physical curse still continues for both man and woman, it in no way means that we are personally responsible or guilty for the choices of Adam and Eve. It is simply a consequence of their choices. Much the same as a father who gets arrested for a crime. The child is innocent of guilt, yet ends up bearing some of the repercussions of those actions.
On the positive side, male and female are also under a blessing
GENESIS 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
GENESIS 1:28 And God blessed them,
and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
GENESIS 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
GENESIS 1:28 And God blessed them,
and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.