BEWARE the Lawkeepers

[BradC]

The law keepers have a problem with the following passage...

Rom 2:12-27

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

 

[just-me]

The law keepers have a problem with the following passage...

Rom 2:12-27

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

I don't have a problem with this scripture. In fact it really opens the spiritual door of what the true meaning of circumcision really is. The law in the Old Testament unlocks that door, and Paul's writings open the door so that we can see the truth as it was, and as is.

Deuteronomy 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked .

Deuteronomy 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

And this is also confirmed by the prophet Jeremiah. 4:4
Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

If we cannot properly define the truth of circumcision we should not talk it down. Circumcision still applies.

Romans 8:5-7 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be .

 

[BradC]

BradC, I esteem my heavenly Father Who is most gracious in saving a wretch such as I. He is Love, the only Love I have ever known, so if it hurts you that I go as far as I am able within the saving Grace I have received from Him to please Him, I am truly sorry, but what is that to you?

If you indeed truly know the freedom of grace, by all means serve Him in any manner you have been given to do so, but do not judge your brethren who know what and why they do what they do. It is obvious you are attempting to dissuade me from obeying the commandments of my Father, and His Son, that is to say, His will. You will not. I pray you are doing this out of love and concern and not just some kind of power trip. Many who come in are are the latter, but they do fade like smoke.

There are three reasons in my opinion that you fail to have the same respect and acknowledgment for Paul's writings as you do of the others disciples.

1- because Paul did not walk with the Lord as did the twelve
2- because Paul persecuted the Lord Jesus Christ through the members of the church
3- because of the things Paul said that concerned the end of the law

These three things in your mind and understanding that has disqualified him from being the chief apostle, one of the twenty-four elders that will be seated around the throne and judging the twelve tribes of Israel and from any position and placement concerning the foundation of the New Jerusalem. You may be right but remember that Paul was called by grace to minister the gospel of Christ to the Gentiles. Just keep that in mind.

 

[BradC]

Yet the mystery of the revelation had been revealed concerning Christ and the church to the Bereans.

Qualify that statement if you can.

 

[just-me]

There are three reasons in my opinion that you fail to have the same respect and acknowledgment for Paul's writings as you do of the others disciples.

1- because Paul did not walk with the Lord as did the twelve
2- because Paul persecuted the Lord Jesus Christ through the members of the church
3- because of the things Paul said that concerned the end of the law

These three things in your mind and understanding that has disqualified him from being the chief apostle, one of the twenty-four elders that will be seated around the throne and judging the twelve tribes of Israel and from any position and placement concerning the foundation of the New Jerusalem. You may be right but remember that Paul was called by grace to minister the gospel of Christ to the Gentiles. Just keep that in mind.

Take this history into consideration.

Acts 24:10-14
10 Then Paul, after that the governor had beckoned unto him to speak , answered , Forasmuch as I know that thou hast been of many years a judge unto this nation, I do the more cheerfully answer for myself:
11 Because that thou mayest understand , that there are yet but twelve days since I went up to Jerusalem for to worship .
12 And they neither found me in the temple disputing with any man, neither raising up the people , neither in the synagogues, nor in the city:
13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.
14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

 

[Brother_Don]

addressing crossnote, what do you think is better, circumcise a baby, or let your child go on without being circumcised, and let him deal with it when problems come when he's older, since you had something to say.

 

[just-me]

Originally Posted by chubbena

Yet the mystery of the revelation had been revealed concerning Christ and the church to the Bereans.

Qualify that statement if you can.

If I may.
The Bereans were a mixture of dispersed Israelites and Greeks in a Gentile nation. They were privy to the scriptures, and at that time they only had what we know as the Old Testament, and even more hearing the scriptures in the Jewish temple built in that area. Paul convinced them of the truth using those scriptures, and they searched those scriptures to prove to themselves the truth Paul taught. They were considered as more noble and well rounded in the truth than those in Thessalonica.

Acts 17:10-12
10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily , whether those things were so.
12 Therefore many of them believed ; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

 

[Linda70]

addressing crossnote, what do you think is better, circumcise a baby, or let your child go on without being circumcised, and let him deal with it when problems come when he's older, since you had something to say.

I know you addressed crossnote, but I would like to add that there was a reason why God commanded that a baby boy be circumcised on the 8th day. It has something to do with the clotting factor in the blood on the 8th day of life. I found this information in "The Chemistry of the Blood" by M. R. DeHaan, M. D.(February, 1983). I also found some interesting things about the blood in another book "None of These Diseases" by S. I. McMillen, M. D. (June, 1984). Both books are available on Amazon. "None of These Diseases" gets into "lawkeeping", so be discerning. I really liked Dr. DeHaan's book.

 

[KohenMatt]

If any, what was the law of commandments that Jesus and the apostles laid out through the inspiration of the Spirit that we have as NT believers?

So if we as NT Christians are only supposed to do those things commanded in the NT and not the OT, what value does the OT have in our lives other than just a historical narrative?

 

[KohenMatt]

I know you addressed crossnote, but I would like to add that there was a reason why God commanded that a baby boy be circumcised on the 8th day. It has something to do with the clotting factor in the blood on the 8th day of life. I found this information in "The Chemistry of the Blood" by M. R. DeHaan, M. D.(February, 1983). I also found some interesting things about the blood in another book "None of These Diseases" by S. I. McMillen, M. D. (June, 1984). Both books are available on Amazon. "None of These Diseases" gets into "lawkeeping", so be discerning. I really liked Dr. DeHaan's book.

Very true. Another good piece of evidence that shows God's wisdom and that he knew what He was doing far before man had any idea why He told them to do it. Physically, circumcision makes sense, including the command to do it on the 8th day.

It also makes sense spiritually.

 

[JaumeJ]

An even bigger question is; Why did the Apostles and Paul teach from what is the Old Testament?

So if we as NT Christians are only supposed to do those things commanded in the NT and not the OT, what value does the OT have in our lives other than just a historical narrative?

 

[KohenMatt]

An even bigger question is; Why did the Apostles and Paul teach from what is the Old Testament?

Great point. Apparently Jesus, Paul and the apostles taught from their Bible, which was the OT.

Luke 24:25-27 "And He said to them, “O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?” 27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures."

Jesus is all throughout the OT, even in the Law and it's instructions. As I've said many times before, I can find a spiritual application in all of the commands in the Law that point to living a godly life and in many cases, point directly to Jesus Himself.

 

[Apostol2013]

The ark does not simply disappear but it's in God's temple in heaven revealed to John in Revelation 11:19 that means something too...

the real ark has allway been in heaven the earthly one was just a made copy but remember when our Lord spoke and commanded moses to make an exact copy as what he had seen in heaven , but Our Lord stands before the throne where the ark is located advocating for us day and night .

 

[2Thewaters]

An even bigger question is; Why did the Apostles and Paul teach from what is the Old Testament?

Because we are to follow it
the word of God

There are psalms
sotires
instruction
and it teaches every well hundreds of times what happens when you make up your OWN religion instead of following Gods religion
you die.

1 Cor 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1 Cor 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Apostol2013]

34 A new commandment I give to you, That you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

35 By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one to another.

 

[Apostol2013]

10 If you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

11 These things have I spoken to you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

12 This is my commandment, That you love one another, as I have loved you.

13 Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

14 You are my friends, if you do whatever I command you.

 

[2Thewaters]

Notice that the apostle Paul DID teach fro the old testament
because that is the truth


Luke 8:21 And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.
(old testament)

1 Pet 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1 Pet 1:24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
1 Pet 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.


it is the gospel

Isaiah, habbakuk zephania hosea amos isaiah

are all books written for us on whome the "ends of the earth are come"

this foolish religions who say there are dispensation are prepareing their people for destruction they wont be ready

 

[2Thewaters]

The only reason people MAKE UP THE RELIGION to remove the old testament because it supports the most important commandment the largest commandment the only commandment with the seal of God

it tells the creator
who he is
his jurisdiction and his goodness to bless us

but they are still in the catholic idol worship so they have to try and remove the old testament the ten commandments and the whole jewish religion
just so they can try and worship on a pagan tamuz day of sun worship

weird

and people fall for this

but they dont remember revelation

it says who will meke it and who wont

"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." -Revelation 12:17.


"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." -Revelation 14:12.


"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." -Revelation 22:14.

that is so undeniable it is always met with stone silence and subject change

well, you are responsible for it anyway.
know it

 

[Linda70]

Way of Life Encyclopedia
LAW (Excerpts)

What Is The Christian's Relationship With the Old Testament Law? The Bible says Christians are dead to the law (Romans 7:1-4). What does this mean?

(1) The law does not control the Christian's life (Romans 7:1-2). Christ is our new husband, and He controls our lives through the New Covenant. While the eternal principles of morality reflected in the law of Moses are respected by the Christian, our rule in life is not the law of Moses but the life of Christ as revealed to us in the New Testament.
(2) The law cannot condemn the Christian (Romans 7:3). The Lord Jesus Christ took our condemnation upon Himself on the cross!
(3) The Christian serves Christ through the Spirit, not through his own power and wisdom (Romans 7:6).

The Difference Between Keeping the Old Testament Law and Living the Christian Life:

(1) The motive is different: We do not live the Christian life in order to gain righteousness, blessing, and life, but because we already possess these things in Christ. We serve Christ out of a sense of gratitude because of the salvation God has given to us, not in order to earn salvation or escape judgment. We already have perfect righteousness (Romans 3:21-24; 2 Corinthians 5:21). We already have eternal blessing (Ephesians 1:3). We already have life (Ephesians 2:1).
(2) The power is different: We live the Christian life through the power of the indwelling Spirit, not through our own strength and wisdom (Romans 8:9-14).
(3) The compulsion is different: We live the Christian life because Christ lives in us and works in us (Colossians 1:29). The compulsion is from within. The law of God has been written on our hearts and compels us to serve God (Hebrews 10:16).
(4) The pattern is different: The Christian's goal is to be conformed to the image of Christ (2 Corinthians 3:18; Romans 8:29; 13:14; Colossians 3:10; Ephesians 4:23-24). The Old Testament law was only a shadow of Christ and of heavenly things (Hebrews 8:5; 10:1; Colossians 2:17; Romans 2:20). Now that the Lord Jesus Christ has come, we have the perfect pattern and substance.

Some Common Errors in Regard to the Law:

(1) Justification by works (Galatians 2:16-21; Acts 13:38-39).
(2) Receiving the Spirit by works (Galatians 3:1-2).
(3) Sanctification by works (Galatians 3:3).
(4) Mixing law and grace, faith and works, for salvation or sanctification (Romans 11:6; 3:21-22; 4:4-6; 9:30-33; Galatians 2:16).
(5) Throwing off all morality and law; "since we are not under law, we can do anything we please" (Romans 6:1-14; 1 Corinthians 9:21; Ephesians 4:17-32; Colossians 3).
(6) Bringing the shadows of Old Testament law into Christianity-sabbath keeping, dietary restrictions; special priesthood; elaborate temples; candles and incense (Colossians 2:14-17).

God's Warnings to Those Who Misuse the Law:

(1) To turn away from the gospel of grace alone is to turn away from Christ (Galatians 1:6).
(2) To turn away from the gospel of grace alone is to be cursed (Galatians 1:8-9).
(3) To turn away from the gospel of grace alone is to turn away from salvation (Galatians 4:9-20; 5:3-6).
(4) To turn back to Old Testament legalism is to fail to enter into rest (Hebrews 4).
(5) Those who turn back to Old Testament legalism crucify the Son of God afresh and cannot be brought again to repentance (Hebrews 6:4-8).
(6) Those who turn back to Old Testament legalism will be judged severely (Hebrews 10:26-31).
(7) God has no pleasure in those who turn back to Old Testament legalism (Hebrews 10:38-39).

 

[KohenMatt]

Way of Life Encyclopedia
LAW (Excerpts)

What Is The Christian's Relationship With the Old Testament Law? The Bible says Christians are dead to the law (Romans 7:1-4). What does this mean?

(1) The law does not control the Christian's life (Romans 7:1-2). Christ is our new husband, and He controls our lives through the New Covenant. While the eternal principles of morality reflected in the law of Moses are respected by the Christian, our rule in life is not the law of Moses but the life of Christ as revealed to us in the New Testament.
(2) The law cannot condemn the Christian (Romans 7:3). The Lord Jesus Christ took our condemnation upon Himself on the cross!
(3) The Christian serves Christ through the Spirit, not through his own power and wisdom (Romans 7:6).

The Difference Between Keeping the Old Testament Law and Living the Christian Life:

(1) The motive is different: We do not live the Christian life in order to gain righteousness, blessing, and life, but because we already possess these things in Christ. We serve Christ out of a sense of gratitude because of the salvation God has given to us, not in order to earn salvation or escape judgment. We already have perfect righteousness (Romans 3:21-24; 2 Corinthians 5:21). We already have eternal blessing (Ephesians 1:3). We already have life (Ephesians 2:1).
(2) The power is different: We live the Christian life through the power of the indwelling Spirit, not through our own strength and wisdom (Romans 8:9-14).
(3) The compulsion is different: We live the Christian life because Christ lives in us and works in us (Colossians 1:29). The compulsion is from within. The law of God has been written on our hearts and compels us to serve God (Hebrews 10:16).
(4) The pattern is different: The Christian's goal is to be conformed to the image of Christ (2 Corinthians 3:18; Romans 8:29; 13:14; Colossians 3:10; Ephesians 4:23-24). The Old Testament law was only a shadow of Christ and of heavenly things (Hebrews 8:5; 10:1; Colossians 2:17; Romans 2:20). Now that the Lord Jesus Christ has come, we have the perfect pattern and substance.

Some Common Errors in Regard to the Law:

(1) Justification by works (Galatians 2:16-21; Acts 13:38-39).
(2) Receiving the Spirit by works (Galatians 3:1-2).
(3) Sanctification by works (Galatians 3:3).
(4) Mixing law and grace, faith and works, for salvation or sanctification (Romans 11:6; 3:21-22; 4:4-6; 9:30-33; Galatians 2:16).
(5) Throwing off all morality and law; "since we are not under law, we can do anything we please" (Romans 6:1-14; 1 Corinthians 9:21; Ephesians 4:17-32; Colossians 3).
(6) Bringing the shadows of Old Testament law into Christianity-sabbath keeping, dietary restrictions; special priesthood; elaborate temples; candles and incense (Colossians 2:14-17).

God's Warnings to Those Who Misuse the Law:

(1) To turn away from the gospel of grace alone is to turn away from Christ (Galatians 1:6).
(2) To turn away from the gospel of grace alone is to be cursed (Galatians 1:8-9).
(3) To turn away from the gospel of grace alone is to turn away from salvation (Galatians 4:9-20; 5:3-6).
(4) To turn back to Old Testament legalism is to fail to enter into rest (Hebrews 4).
(5) Those who turn back to Old Testament legalism crucify the Son of God afresh and cannot be brought again to repentance (Hebrews 6:4-8).
(6) Those who turn back to Old Testament legalism will be judged severely (Hebrews 10:26-31).
(7) God has no pleasure in those who turn back to Old Testament legalism (Hebrews 10:38-39).

I agree with many of the statements here. The one caveat I would add is that there is a proper motive for following the Law and a benefit to it. This commentary doesn't address that.

I've said it before, just because people (including the Pharisees) have misused the Law doesn't mean we should throw it out altogether. We should follow the Law as God originally intended it to be followed.