Calvinist Kitchen...stirring the pot

[Grandpa]

So you do agree that once one is persuaded, convicted they receive the gift of salvation?

Obviously there is a passive act involved?

I can't tell you exactly when the gift of salvation is received. Is it when we perceive it or was it when we were being "persuaded". Was it way before that? Was the mark of salvation always on us?


By passive act you mean we agree with what is happening on the road to salvation? Yes, more or less.

 

[EleventhHour]

Because you have to try before you realize you can't do it.

That is hilarious.

So then he should have been yelling out to the crowds

"Try to repent, the Kingdom of God is at hand"

Too funny!!

 

[NOV25]

You have a god of compulsion not a sovereign God, there is a difference.

He created us as autonomous beings not puppets.

This is part of the free will’ers problem, they truly believe man is autonomous: self governing or without outside governance, acting without ANY outside influence or limitation. This is an unbiblical, pagan view of the will of man. One only needs to read the Bible to see the will of man is fallen after Adam and Eve, like a disease that plagues all mankind. His will, his reason and his logic, his heart mind and soul, is evil continuously in need of cleansing. Cleansing offered only by God the Spirit who comes to whom he wills, when he wills and why he wills, for his own glory that no man may boast.
Sorry free will’ers, you’re not autonomous, you’re not gods who resurrect yourselves from the dead, who remove your own hearts of stone and replace it with a heart of flesh, who summon God the Spirit and command Him to dwell within...

 

[EleventhHour]

I can't tell you exactly when the gift of salvation is received. Is it when we perceive it or was it when we were being "persuaded". Was it way before that? Was the mark of salvation always on us?


By passive act you mean we agree with what is happening on the road to salvation? Yes, more or less.

Well maybe you do not adhere to rigid Calvinism, but in that dogma regeneration precedes faith... completely un-biblical.

Perhaps you could elaborate on your position?

 

[1ofthem]

Your first 3 sentences I TOTALLY agreed with.

Your 4th sentence, your conclusion, I don't agree with.

There is nothing special that resides in those who will be saved vs those who won't be saved that causes them to make GREAT decisions.

It is merely the Lords Leading that causes those who will be saved to make those GREAT decisions.



I would like to focus on your sentence "So there has to be an explanation as to why some wont be saved".

Romans 9:21-23
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

I think you need to go back to Jeremiah 18 for explanation of the potter and the clay.

Jeremiah 18
3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

5 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying,

6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the Lord. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;

8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;

10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

 

[Grandpa]

I thought you had more credibility than what you’re displaying on this thread today. What you share is complete and total twisted garbage. No one here WORSHIPS their own will.

That's usually the response I get when I tell people who worship their own will that they in fact do worship their own will.

They get upset. They get mad.

What is so special about your will anyway? Isn't trading it for Gods Will a much better trade?

 

[EleventhHour]

This is part of the free will’ers problem, they truly believe man is autonomous: self governing or without outside governance, acting without ANY outside influence or limitation. This is an unbiblical, pagan view of the will of man. One only needs to read the Bible to see the will of man is fallen after Adam and Eve, like a disease that plagues all mankind. His will, his reason and his logic, his heart mind and soul, is evil continuously in need of cleansing. Cleansing offered only by God the Spirit who comes to whom he wills, when he wills and why he wills, for his own glory that no man may boast.
Sorry free will’ers, you’re not autonomous, you’re not gods who resurrect yourselves from the dead...

Typical take a simple word, concept and streeeeeetch beyond what it is defined.

I merely mean it the sense that we have independence from God ...God does not overtly control us.

 

[jackrosie]

We are the clay God is the potter..we are his workmanship....which should be seen in a Christian....
We are the work of the Lord’s hand.
That’s if they are truly saved....but not all are.

 

[Grandpa]

Well maybe you do not adhere to rigid Calvinism, but in that dogma regeneration precedes faith... completely un-biblical.

Perhaps you could elaborate on your position?

Regeneration does precede the fruit of the spirit, faith. It has to. You can't produce fruit without being regenerated.

How in the wide world of sports could that possibly be un-biblical?

 

[jackrosie]

Unless you are born of the Spirit.....you cannot bear the fruit of the Lord.

You wouldn’t even know the meaning of fruit.

 

[jackrosie]

Regeneration does precede the fruit of the spirit, faith. It has to. You can't produce fruit without being regenerated.

Amen!

 

[1ofthem]

This is part of the free will’ers problem, they truly believe man is autonomous: self governing or without outside governance, acting without ANY outside influence or limitation. This is an unbiblical, pagan view of the will of man. One only needs to read the Bible to see the will of man is fallen after Adam and Eve, like a disease that plagues all mankind. His will, his reason and his logic, his heart mind and soul, is evil continuously in need of cleansing. Cleansing offered only by God the Spirit who comes to whom he wills, when he wills and why he wills, for his own glory that no man may boast.
Sorry free will’ers, you’re not autonomous, you’re not gods who resurrect yourselves from the dead, who remove your own hearts of stone and replace it with a heart of flesh, who summon God the Spirit and command Him to dwell within...

Sorry, I'm going to have to call this what it really is....total BS. No one believes this BS. God calls and draws all, we don't force his hand or demand him to do anything. He offers a gift of salvation to anyone and all that believe upon his Son...We either accept or not....How is this so hard to comprehend? Why twist all the scriptures to try to make it fit a fatalistic view of some man?

 

[Grandpa]

I think you need to go back to Jeremiah 18 for explanation of the potter and the clay.

Jeremiah 18
3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

5 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying,

6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the Lord. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;

8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;

10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

You think the OT is the explanation of what is happening in the NT?

OK.

Jeremiah 31:31-33
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

IF it is by your will that you decided to be saved and LET God save you then effectively your will overpowered Gods Will and made Him save you.

If it was Gods decision for you to be saved then it was Gods Will for you to be saved.


You just have to determine whose will it was that caused you to be saved. Then you will have the correct outlook on theology.

This is true only if it is not gods will that all who believe will be saved

If it is gods will that all who believe then this is not true

 

[NOV25]

Typical take a simple word, concept and streeeeeetch beyond what it is defined.

I merely mean it the sense that we have independence from God ...God does not overtly control us.

Typical, the free will’er uses words they don’t understand to explain concepts they don’t understand and when people correct them they revise the position on which they stand. Understandable I suppose 😂

 

[eternally-gratefull]

IF it is by your will that you decided to be saved and LET God save you then effectively your will overpowered Gods Will and made Him save you.

If it was Gods decision for you to be saved then it was Gods Will for you to be saved.


You just have to determine whose will it was that caused you to be saved. Then you will have the correct outlook on theology.

It was gods will that whoever call on his name will be saved is it not?

 

[Grandpa]

This is true only if it is not gods will that all who believe will be saved

If it is gods will that all who believe then this is not true

Where did the belief (faith) come from to begin with?

Why is one of the fruit of the spirit Faith?


Was it given to you by God as a gift? Or was it something that you manufactured inside yourself and created by your own self?


More than likely it was a culmination of all the evidence you see around you. At least it was that way for me...

 

[EleventhHour]

That's usually the response I get when I tell people who worship their own will that they in fact do worship their own will.

They get upset. They get mad.

What is so special about your will anyway? Isn't trading it for Gods Will a much better trade?

And rightly so ....typical tactic.
I am beginning to see that @Bbrdrd was correct the T in TULIP is the root problem of the whole dogma, everything else hangs on it.

Yet....................the gospel is “the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes” (Rom. 1:16).

“For God’s wrath is revealed from heaven against all godlessness and unrighteousness of people who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth” (Rom 1:18 HCSB).

Why would unbelievers need to suppress the truth if they are born unable to believe it?

Interesting that some unregenerate people do not suppress the truth, but actively seek to know more of it ...ie Cornelius.

 

[lenna]

Yes.

And if you do those things it is by Gods Will that you did them.

Right.

It is God's will for EVERYONE, not only Calvin's Little Glee Club for the Indoctrinated Card Carrying Few

The Lord is not slow to fulfill His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance.
II Peter 3:9

now try to say that means we believe in universalism. God is willing for all to be saved but people, including Calvinists, are not willing that all be saved

 

[1ofthem]

You think the OT is the explanation of what is happening in the NT?

OK.

Jeremiah 31:31-33
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

The New Covenant is that God sent his only begotten Son so that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

Jesus said if I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto me. And guess what he was lifted up on a cross and shed his blood to atone for the sins of all men. That whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. And once again, it is not God's will that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. The Spirit and the Bride says come and let whosoever will come and drink of the water of life freely.

This is the New Covenant, the good word, and the gospel to all men.