The Greek text analysis tends to agree with that translation HRFTD 
Everyone practicing sin, also lawlessness practices; and sin is lawlessness.
Everyone practicing sin, also lawlessness practices; and sin is lawlessness.
Christians are not required to keep the law.
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The law is placed on the heart? My bible says we are given a new heart, not a law placed on the heart.
Those born again know they have been given a new heart, a new nature with desires after God's desires.
Galatians 5:17-18 KJVS
[17] For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. [18] But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Those born again know they have been given a new heart, a new nature with desires after God's desires.
Galatians 5:17-18 KJVS
[17] For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. [18] But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
My niv says we have been given a nsw heart too. It, along with the KJV states the law is put on the heart. Do you think these versions are unreliable? Should we go the greek texts?
Yep, those born again have been given a new nature, alongside the flesh. They have desires after Gods desires for the law has been put on their hearts
Yep, those born again have been given a new nature, alongside the flesh. They have desires after Gods desires for the law has been put on their hearts
Can I ask you? Supposing a christian stole something. Are they not supposed to have a conscience at stealing, only the fact they didn't love as they should. If a christian committed adultery, must they not have a conscience they committed adultery, just realise they did not act in a loving way? Is it being legalistic to have a conscience if you bear false witness, because all you should have a conscience concerning I not acting in a loving way? Only as you know, through the law we become conscious of sin. I am afraid the reality is when christians err they have remorse for the specific thing they have done. If that makes us all legalists I guess it does.
There is nothing wrong with Gods laws, they are perfect, holy and good, the problem for man was the law of righteousness. That is removed for the christian so there is no condemnation for those who are I Christ jesus
O
M
Wow great thread everyone, very interesting. It's moved on quite a bit since I
went to bed!
I'm sure that if we could all debate this face to face, we would see that many
are in agreement but are just coming at this from different angles.
A few verses which came to mind while reading all of this. (Quite a few actually
i think you all know me by now to know that I can't use 1 word, when 100
will do. I am a woman after all!)
[h=2][/h]
John 16:7-13 AMP
[7] However, I am telling you nothing but the truth when I say it is profitable
(good, expedient, advantageous) for you that I go away. Because if I do not
go away, the Comforter (Counselor, Helper, Advocate, Intercessor, Strengthener,
Standby) will not come to you into close fellowship with you; but if I go away,
I will send Him to you to be in close fellowship with you. [8] And when He comes,
He will convict and convince the world and bring demonstration to it about sin and
about righteousness (uprightness of heart and right standing with God) and about
judgment: [9] About sin, because they do not believe in Me trust in, rely on, and
adhere to Me; [10] About righteousness (uprightness of heart and right standing
with God), because I go to My Father, and you will see Me no longer;
[11] About judgment, because the ruler (evil genius, prince) of this world Satan
is judged and condemned and sentence already is passed upon him. [12] I have
still many things to say to you, but you are not able to bear them or to take them
upon you or to grasp them now. [13] But when He, the Spirit of Truth (the Truth-giving
Spirit) comes, He will guide you into all the Truth (the whole, full Truth). For He will
not speak His own message on His own authority; but He will tell whatever He hears
from the Father; He will give the message that has been given to Him, and He will
announce and declare to you the things that are to come that will happen in the future.
Jesus did not leave us alone fighting our own battles trying to work out what was right
and wrong. When we become born again the Holy Spirit dwells on the inside of us, we
are sealed by the Holy Spirit.
2 Corinthians 1:22 AMP
[22] He has also appropriated and acknowledged us as His by putting His seal upon us
and giving us His Holy Spirit in our hearts as the security deposit and guarantee of the
fulfillment of His promise.
The flesh still battles through the world, we still have our mind sets to tear down, we still
have to grow and mature as Christians. For the true born again Christian we are fully aware
of the internal battle raging within. Even Paul felt the same.
Romans 7:14-25 NKJV
[14] For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. [15] For what
I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what
I hate, that I do. [16] If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.
[17] But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. [18] For I know that
in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how
to perform what is good I do not find. [19] For the good that I will to do, I do not do;
but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. [20] Now if I do what I will not to do, it
is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. [21] I find then a law, that evil is
present with me, the one who wills to do good. [22] For I delight in the law of God
according to the inward man.
[23] But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and
bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. [24] O wretched
man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? [25] I thank God-through
Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with
the flesh the law of sin.
Romans 8:1-17 NKJV
[1] There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do
not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. [2] For the law of the Spirit
of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. [3] For what the
law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son
in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, [4] that
the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according
to the flesh but according to the Spirit. [5] For those who live according to the flesh set
their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the
things of the Spirit.
[6] For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
[7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law
of God, nor indeed can be. [8] So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
[9] But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells
in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
[10] And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life
because of righteousness. [11] But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the
dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your
mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. [12] Therefore, brethren,
we are debtors-not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. [13] For if you
live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the
deeds of the body, you will live. [14] For as many as are led by the Spirit of God,
these are sons of God. [15] For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again
to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."
[16] The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
[17] and if children, then heirs-heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed
we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
What am I trying to say, right I suppose it's that for the true born again believer
we have the Holy Spirit living on the inside of us - this is why we are born again.
We cannot be born again without the Holy Spirit.
How do we know we have the Holy Spirit living on the inside of us. Well I could
get into all the speaking in tongues debate but I won't as lots has been said on other
threads on that one.
But there are many other signs, one is the tender conscious, the conviction we feel
When we do something wrong and knowing we need to turn to God and say sorry.
We get unctions or urges to do things as the Holy Spirit guides. I have had umpteen
examples of this in my own life. But one was a while ago while shopping in town,
I felt I should buy an elderly friend a mobile phone. She is 86 and lives alone and
didnt have a phone of any description.
I could not shake off this feeling. So I carefully chose a phone I thought she would like.
One not too complicated, but with some interesting features as she likes a bit of a
challenge. In the end I chose a Nokio, this was before Windows came along.
It had an alpha keypad a bit like a blackberry which I thought she would find
easy to use.
Anyway I went straight to her house, knocked on her door and said I have a little
present for you I just felt I had to get it, hope you are not offended but I have
bought you a phone.
She asked is it a Nokia! I said yes and we both burst out laughing!
It turned out she felt God was telling her she would get a Nokia phone but
she didn't know why she felt this!
That is just an example of the unction of the Holy Spirit!
The Holy Spirit guides and leads us if we listen to that still small voice.
He convicts, builds us up, encourages us, councils us. Etc.
So we miss the mark if we leave the Holy Spirit out of this thread.
Ok right I will get off my soap box now. Good morning. Everyone,
hope you have a spirit filled day. Have got to go to the hospital now
to visit my Aunt. If you want another marathon post to read you might
want to see the post in the testimony forum I posted a few days ago
about the healing of an 80 year old.
went to bed!
I'm sure that if we could all debate this face to face, we would see that many
are in agreement but are just coming at this from different angles.
A few verses which came to mind while reading all of this. (Quite a few actually
i think you all know me by now to know that I can't use 1 word, when 100
will do. I am a woman after all!
)[h=2][/h]
John 16:7-13 AMP
[7] However, I am telling you nothing but the truth when I say it is profitable
(good, expedient, advantageous) for you that I go away. Because if I do not
go away, the Comforter (Counselor, Helper, Advocate, Intercessor, Strengthener,
Standby) will not come to you into close fellowship with you; but if I go away,
I will send Him to you to be in close fellowship with you. [8] And when He comes,
He will convict and convince the world and bring demonstration to it about sin and
about righteousness (uprightness of heart and right standing with God) and about
judgment: [9] About sin, because they do not believe in Me trust in, rely on, and
adhere to Me; [10] About righteousness (uprightness of heart and right standing
with God), because I go to My Father, and you will see Me no longer;
[11] About judgment, because the ruler (evil genius, prince) of this world Satan
is judged and condemned and sentence already is passed upon him. [12] I have
still many things to say to you, but you are not able to bear them or to take them
upon you or to grasp them now. [13] But when He, the Spirit of Truth (the Truth-giving
Spirit) comes, He will guide you into all the Truth (the whole, full Truth). For He will
not speak His own message on His own authority; but He will tell whatever He hears
from the Father; He will give the message that has been given to Him, and He will
announce and declare to you the things that are to come that will happen in the future.
Jesus did not leave us alone fighting our own battles trying to work out what was right
and wrong. When we become born again the Holy Spirit dwells on the inside of us, we
are sealed by the Holy Spirit.
2 Corinthians 1:22 AMP
[22] He has also appropriated and acknowledged us as His by putting His seal upon us
and giving us His Holy Spirit in our hearts as the security deposit and guarantee of the
fulfillment of His promise.
The flesh still battles through the world, we still have our mind sets to tear down, we still
have to grow and mature as Christians. For the true born again Christian we are fully aware
of the internal battle raging within. Even Paul felt the same.
Romans 7:14-25 NKJV
[14] For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. [15] For what
I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what
I hate, that I do. [16] If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.
[17] But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. [18] For I know that
in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how
to perform what is good I do not find. [19] For the good that I will to do, I do not do;
but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. [20] Now if I do what I will not to do, it
is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. [21] I find then a law, that evil is
present with me, the one who wills to do good. [22] For I delight in the law of God
according to the inward man.
[23] But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and
bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. [24] O wretched
man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? [25] I thank God-through
Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with
the flesh the law of sin.
Romans 8:1-17 NKJV
[1] There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do
not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. [2] For the law of the Spirit
of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. [3] For what the
law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son
in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, [4] that
the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according
to the flesh but according to the Spirit. [5] For those who live according to the flesh set
their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the
things of the Spirit.
[6] For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
[7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law
of God, nor indeed can be. [8] So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
[9] But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells
in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
[10] And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life
because of righteousness. [11] But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the
dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your
mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. [12] Therefore, brethren,
we are debtors-not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. [13] For if you
live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the
deeds of the body, you will live. [14] For as many as are led by the Spirit of God,
these are sons of God. [15] For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again
to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."
[16] The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
[17] and if children, then heirs-heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed
we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
What am I trying to say, right I suppose it's that for the true born again believer
we have the Holy Spirit living on the inside of us - this is why we are born again.
We cannot be born again without the Holy Spirit.
How do we know we have the Holy Spirit living on the inside of us. Well I could
get into all the speaking in tongues debate but I won't as lots has been said on other
threads on that one.
But there are many other signs, one is the tender conscious, the conviction we feel
When we do something wrong and knowing we need to turn to God and say sorry.
We get unctions or urges to do things as the Holy Spirit guides. I have had umpteen
examples of this in my own life. But one was a while ago while shopping in town,
I felt I should buy an elderly friend a mobile phone. She is 86 and lives alone and
didnt have a phone of any description.
I could not shake off this feeling. So I carefully chose a phone I thought she would like.
One not too complicated, but with some interesting features as she likes a bit of a
challenge. In the end I chose a Nokio, this was before Windows came along.
It had an alpha keypad a bit like a blackberry which I thought she would find
easy to use.
Anyway I went straight to her house, knocked on her door and said I have a little
present for you I just felt I had to get it, hope you are not offended but I have
bought you a phone.
She asked is it a Nokia! I said yes and we both burst out laughing!
It turned out she felt God was telling her she would get a Nokia phone but
she didn't know why she felt this!
That is just an example of the unction of the Holy Spirit!
The Holy Spirit guides and leads us if we listen to that still small voice.
He convicts, builds us up, encourages us, councils us. Etc.
So we miss the mark if we leave the Holy Spirit out of this thread.
Ok right I will get off my soap box now. Good morning. Everyone,
hope you have a spirit filled day. Have got to go to the hospital now
to visit my Aunt. If you want another marathon post to read you might
want to see the post in the testimony forum I posted a few days ago
about the healing of an 80 year old.
Same way as crossnote and EG do.
I would add. The Christian has been born again of the Holy Spirit, they do not need to be told to set aside a specific day for God, they want every day to be their true Sabbath. In their heart they want to and worship God for all he has done for them through his son. One specific day a week isn't enough to do that. They have a true Sabbath rest because they have been born again. Because that has happened they have a saviour from their sin. They meditate on this all seven days. They don't ignore the fourth commandment, just have it all seven days instead of one
I would add. The Christian has been born again of the Holy Spirit, they do not need to be told to set aside a specific day for God, they want every day to be their true Sabbath. In their heart they want to and worship God for all he has done for them through his son. One specific day a week isn't enough to do that. They have a true Sabbath rest because they have been born again. Because that has happened they have a saviour from their sin. They meditate on this all seven days. They don't ignore the fourth commandment, just have it all seven days instead of one
BTW
The important thing is not to believe in a law of righteousness, right? You don't, neither do I, crossnote or Eternally Grateful.
No point in getting hung up about this according to a particular letter of doctrine we may individually follow.
Heaven for me solely hinges on what Christ did for me at Calvary. I cant attain Heaven by being good enough, obeying the law well enough, or by having any righteousness of my own, I haven't got any.
So taking that into account, if I want to believe the law God requires me to keep is within me, and some of you take a slightly different view than my own, it shouldn't be a big deal, if we unite around the all important core point.
Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness, for everyone who believeth
The important thing is not to believe in a law of righteousness, right? You don't, neither do I, crossnote or Eternally Grateful.
No point in getting hung up about this according to a particular letter of doctrine we may individually follow.
Heaven for me solely hinges on what Christ did for me at Calvary. I cant attain Heaven by being good enough, obeying the law well enough, or by having any righteousness of my own, I haven't got any.
So taking that into account, if I want to believe the law God requires me to keep is within me, and some of you take a slightly different view than my own, it shouldn't be a big deal, if we unite around the all important core point.
Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness, for everyone who believeth
E
I am sorry this seems so hard for you to understand.
1. No longer under a tutor. Means it has done its job, and we move onto what we learned and the benefits of living by what we learned, (namely Christ)
2. And end, End means completion. I never said "full stop" those were your words. But "full Stop" and "completion" Prety much mean the same, so your point is mute.
3. Gal 3 does show it is on our hearts. How can it be our tutur if it was never on our hearts. You have an odd way of thinking, and expressing things or something..
Upset me? No you have not upset me, far from it, I just said once again I did not want to argue.
E
wow.. So I need the law. It showed me ALL it needed to show me (since I came to Christ) Now I need it more?
Lets take this object. which sole purpose was to do this one thing (according to paul) and make it do something it was never intended to do.
Ok. lets all have fun and follow law.. woohoo. we can all be pharisees!!
E
Yep. Nothing is impossible with God. As Jesus said, Only God is good. so why do you call anyone God (perfection is Gods standard) as Jesus said.
God will do a good work in you. But God will not make you perfect (complete sanctification in action, not just in position) I am not perfect. and it is not Because God has stopped working in me. It is because I still have the flesh, and sadly, I still fall.. Daily I fall.. the more I grow in Christ, the more I realize my sin, and how deserving of Gods judgement I am.