Contradiction of WORDS

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Jan 19, 2013
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#81
Salvation is not a free gift????????

Jn 6:27 "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed."

Two things about this verse:

1) Jesus said to WORK for the meat that endures unto everlasting life. Issued settle that salvation requires works.
Not for the blind man who can't read Eph 2:8-9.

Nor for the man who sets the Scriptures against themselves,
proving he does not understand them correctly,
for the word of God written does not contradict itself.

It is contradictory only in his blind misunderstanding.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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#82
Sounds like work to me....

Evidently the faith onlyist do not think this verse (among many more) apply to them.
The good news is the truth of the word of God is not based on what it sounds like to you.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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#83
I did not say Naaman being healed had to do with his salvation. I used Naaman as a biblical example of God's grace requiring a work yet that work in dipping earned Naaman nothing.
Totally blind to God's glorious revelation in the event:

God had a much bigger and better purpose than placing "conditions"
on receiving his gift of healing.

Naaman's healing was God's divine revelation of the saving gospel in his Son,
where healing would be cleansing (of sin).
 
Jan 19, 2013
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#85
God's hands were never tied. God, simply out of His good grace, offered a free gift of healing to Naaman. It was up to Naaman to accept or reject that gift and God's hands were not tied no matter what Naaman chose to do.

The issue is would Naaman received God's free gift WITHOUT WORKS?
Only the gift giver can answer that question.

And you are blind to the bigger, better and more glorious purpose of God in the event,

revelation of the nature of the gospel in his Son, where healing is cleansing (of sin).
 
Jan 19, 2013
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#86
I never said Naaman's dipping was about salvation but I am using Naaman as an EXAMPLE of works being necessary to receive God's free gift with those works earning Naaman nothing.
If it's not an example of salvation, it cannot apply.

You are misapplying and mishandling the Scriptures.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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#87
No strings attached???????????

No dipping required to be receive God's free gift?
Only God can answer if he would have healed Naaman had he not dipped.

God's purpose was not a string attached, but a divine revelation of the nature of the saving gospel
in his Son, that healing is cleansing (of sin, our real malady).

The blind do not see these things, because they do not really understand the gospel (Eph 2:8-9),
having set the Scriptures against themselves.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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#88
So now you are just flatly denying that dipping was part of God's requirement for Naaman to be freely healed?
I'm flatly denying that it is an example of salvation,

and flatly asserting that because it is not an example, it cannot apply to salvation,

and is a misapplication and mishandling of Scripture.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#89
Naaman's dipping was obedience produced by a faith he already had.
His faith began when he believed the servants urging him to dip in the dirty Jordan; he believed and from there went to the Jordan...faith came first (justification) then out of that faith good works issued forth.
 
P

psychomom

Guest
#90
hmmm...well, let's talk about Naaman for a sec...

2 Kings 5:1
Now Naaman, captain of the army of the king of Aram, was a great man with his master, and highly respected, because by him the LORD had given victory to Aram. The man was also a valiant warrior, but he was a leper.

seems Naaman was accustomed to performing great feats, and being recognized for them.
but he might not have thought to go to Israel for healing but for the little girl who had been kidnapped from Israel who told Naaman's wife about Elisha, that Elisha would be able to heal him.

so what did Naaman do? v. 5
He departed and took with him ten talents of silver and six thousand shekels of gold and ten changes of clothes.

he took a whole lotta gifts with which to purchase his healing. Naaman, it seems, was not about to be healed
without earning it.

when Elisha not only didn't come to see Naaman himself, but sent a messenger telling him to wash in the Jordan, (v. 11-12)

But Naaman was furious and went away and said, “Behold, I thought, ‘He will surely come out to me and stand and call on the name of the LORD his God, and wave his hand over the place and cure the leper.’
“Are not Abanah and Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? Could I not wash in them and be clean?” So he turned and went away in a rage.

doesn't sound all that humble and obedient to me. :rolleyes:

if Naaman hadn't had servants with him to convince him that although it wasn't performing some great feat,
i guess we'll never know what may have happened. v. 13

Then his servants came near and spoke to him and said, “My father, had the prophet told you to do some great thing, would you not have done it? How much more then, when he says to you, ‘Wash, and be clean’?”

Naaman didn't really go willingly...he had to be convinced. (persuaded...pistis...faith!)
it's the Gospel. ♥

 
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
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#91
hmmm...well, let's talk about Naaman for a sec...

2 Kings 5:1
Now Naaman, captain of the army of the king of Aram, was a great man with his master, and highly respected, because by him the LORD had given victory to Aram. The man was also a valiant warrior, but he was a leper.

seems Naaman was accustomed to performing great feats, and being recognized for them.
but he might not have thought to go to Israel for healing but for the little girl who had been kidnapped from Israel who told Naaman's wife about Elisha, that Elisha would be able to heal him.

so what did Naaman do? v. 5
He departed and took with him ten talents of silver and six thousand shekels of gold and ten changes of clothes.

he took a whole lotta gifts with which to purchase his healing. Naaman, it seems, was not about to be healed
without earning it.

when Elisha not only didn't come to see Naaman himself, but sent a messenger telling him to wash in the Jordan, (v. 11-12)

But Naaman was furious and went away and said, “Behold, I thought, ‘He will surely come out to me and stand and call on the name of the LORD his God, and wave his hand over the place and cure the leper.’
“Are not Abanah and Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? Could I not wash in them and be clean?” So he turned and went away in a rage.

doesn't sound all that humble and obedient to me. :rolleyes:

if Naaman hadn't had servants with him to convince him that although it wasn't performing some great feat,
i guess we'll never know what may have happened. v. 13

Then his servants came near and spoke to him and said, “My father, had the prophet told you to do some great thing, would you not have done it? How much more then, when he says to you, ‘Wash, and be clean’?”

Naaman didn't really go willingly...he had to be convinced. (persuaded...pistis...faith!)
it's the Gospel. ♥
Outstanding!
 
P

psychomom

Guest
#92
you know, it's interesting Elisha didn't take all the stuff Naaman brought.
in the words of that brilliant theologian, Paul McCartney, "Can't buy me love". hehe

there's something prideful in each one of us that just needs to do something great, and be recognized for it.

to me, Naaman's story points to Jesus in some profound ways.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,693
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#93
a slothful man refuses even to lift a spoon to his mouth in order to be fed - who knows if he will chew?

and an arrogant & boastful man takes a mouthful of meat, and says that by chewing it he has made a meal for himself, forgetting the one who hunted, dressed and prepared the animal to eat.
 

WomanLovesTX

Senior Member
Jan 1, 2010
1,390
38
0
#94
I have a question for all concerning the following quote from a Campbellite that uses this chat site...

WORKS DO NOT EARN GRACE

WORKS REQUIRED to receive GRACE


Is this a contradiction of WORDS and or a play on WORDS?
Where is this principle found in scriptures?

Grace means UNMERITED FAVOR
so how can it be possible to earn or receive GRACE BASED UPON WORKS seeing how the very word means unmerited favor<--unearned favor?
To work for something means you EARNED IT!
1Jn_4:19 We love Him because He first loved us.

Question is "love" works?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,693
13,514
113
#95
Naaman's dipping was obedience produced by a faith he already had.
His faith began when he believed the servants urging him to dip in the dirty Jordan; he believed and from there went to the Jordan...faith came first (justification) then out of that faith good works issued forth.
even when he heard that the God of Israel was able to heal, and believed !!
and then he confessed with his mouth (
2 Kings 5:4)

the way he acted, bringing riches, and expecting the prophet to wave his hands, i think are because of what he knew of prophets in Aram.
when the servant showed him wisdom, he took hold of it, walked in it, and the God of Israel was faithful to His word.
 
P

psychomom

Guest
#97
1Jn_4:19 We love Him because He first loved us.

Question is "love" works?
may i intrude? :)

how could love be works when it is a gift?
the Law tells us we must love God, but has no power to inspire love in us for God.

i was thinking about this story today. Luke 19:1-10

He entered Jericho and was passing through.
And there was a man called by the name of Zaccheus; he was a chief tax collector and he was rich.
Zaccheus was trying to see who Jesus was, and was unable because of the crowd, for he was small in stature.
So he ran on ahead and climbed up into a sycamore tree in order to see Him, for He was about to pass through that way.
When Jesus came to the place, He looked up and said to him, “Zaccheus, hurry and come down, for today I must stay at your house.”
And he hurried and came down and received Him gladly.
When they saw it, they all began to grumble, saying, “He has gone to be the guest of a man who is a sinner.”
Zaccheus stopped and said to the Lord, “Behold, Lord, half of my possessions I will give to the poor, and if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I will give back four times as much.”
And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.
“For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”

i notice in this story that Jesus calls Zaccheus publicly.
i don't think that did too much for Jesus' reputation...the onlookers were upset because, after all,
Zaccheus was a sinner! (as if they were not
:rolleyes: )
but Jesus loved him...publicly.
and after receiving that love, Zaccheus makes some pretty radical changes.
nowhere in the Law does God require anyone to give away half of what they have,
or to repay four-fold.
but God's love embodied in the grace given in the Gospel inspires what the Law cannot.

God's Law is good! it comes from God, shows us His character, and how we are to live.
but only the love God gives to us, minus our merit, in a dramatically one-way fashion,
has the power to inspire real obedience...the kind that can make it through the long march of our lives.

sorry...that went a long way beyond your question!
but some things i was musing on...

love,
ellie
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
3,670
113
#98
hmmm...well, let's talk about Naaman for a sec...

2 Kings 5:1
Now Naaman, captain of the army of the king of Aram, was a great man with his master, and highly respected, because by him the LORD had given victory to Aram. The man was also a valiant warrior, but he was a leper.

seems Naaman was accustomed to performing great feats, and being recognized for them.
but he might not have thought to go to Israel for healing but for the little girl who had been kidnapped from Israel who told Naaman's wife about Elisha, that Elisha would be able to heal him.

so what did Naaman do? v. 5
He departed and took with him ten talents of silver and six thousand shekels of gold and ten changes of clothes.

he took a whole lotta gifts with which to purchase his healing. Naaman, it seems, was not about to be healed
without earning it.

when Elisha not only didn't come to see Naaman himself, but sent a messenger telling him to wash in the Jordan, (v. 11-12)

But Naaman was furious and went away and said, “Behold, I thought, ‘He will surely come out to me and stand and call on the name of the LORD his God, and wave his hand over the place and cure the leper.’
“Are not Abanah and Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? Could I not wash in them and be clean?” So he turned and went away in a rage.

doesn't sound all that humble and obedient to me. :rolleyes:

if Naaman hadn't had servants with him to convince him that although it wasn't performing some great feat,
i guess we'll never know what may have happened. v. 13

Then his servants came near and spoke to him and said, “My father, had the prophet told you to do some great thing, would you not have done it? How much more then, when he says to you, ‘Wash, and be clean’?”

Naaman didn't really go willingly...he had to be convinced. (persuaded...pistis...faith!)
it's the Gospel. ♥

But he did change his mind and went. Many converts to Christ come grudgingly e.g. c.s. lewis.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
3,670
113
1Jn_4:19 We love Him because He first loved us.

Question is "love" works?
Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.