Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[eternally-gratefull]

We've been through this all before but you seem to have forgotten. Okay, I'll do this again, but please try to remember for next time.
My replies immediately follow your posts. If you don't understand them, let me know and I'll clarify but it's not that complicated.

"Jphn 1. But as many as have RECIEVED HIM"

[Jhn 1:13 KJV] 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

But as many who recieved him. Not by the will of man, But the will of God.
You still have to recieve period.

"John 3 Whover looks to the son lifted n the cross and believes."

[Jhn 6:64-65 KJV]
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

It does not negate the fact you STILL have to do what Jesu said.

What did jesus say? It is the will of the father WHOEVER SEES AND BELIEVES.

I agree. No one can come unless the father allows it. But THATS HIS PLAN

Why would God say NO to someone who saw and believed?

Jhn 6:44-45 KJV]
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

"John 5 Hear my words and believe"

See my reply Jhn 6:64 -5, Jhn 6:44 - 45, preceding

"John 6 labor for food which endures forever, eat, drink See believe, chew"

[Jhn 6:36-37,
39 KJV] 36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. ...
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Non of these answer my question my friend

Jesus did not contradict himself or his father

As many as have recieved him.

Thats what Jhn said is the truth. To THEM he grace the right to be children of God

You deny this fact. Thats on you my friend.

You know, eternally-gratefull, you seem to have a real problem in understanding/accepting that Jesus Christ is THE ONE and ONLY Savior.

You seem to have failed to grasp. THAT I KNOW THIS IS THE TRUTH. THATS WHY MY FAITH WAS IN HIM NOT MYSELF.

What you fail to grasp is me placing my faith in SOME ELSE TO SAVE MY HOPELESS LOST SELF. Is nt me trusting in myself.

I've asked you this before and you didn't answer directly, so I'll simplify it and ask you again.
Do you believe that we would be saved if we did nothing whatsoever to effectuate our salvation?

whoever recieved him, to THEM he gave the right to be children of God

Do you believe one can be saved without RECIEVEING Christ?

This is obedience to the gospel No one who does not recieve in faith is saved. No ONE.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And there is the "obedience" you infer is necessary for Salvation. He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NKJV

So Jesus lied about this?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

True belief in Christ is a gift given to some, but not to all. It comes not by our work, but only from/by the Holy Spirit

True belief is available to all.

But some hide in their hearts the truth (romans 1) and god allows them to live in unbelief.

 

[rogerg]

But as many who recieved him. Not by the will of man, But the will of God.
You still have to recieve period.

NOT BY THE WILL OF MAN BUT THE WILL OF GOD. THEY RECIEVE IT THROUGH GOD not themselves

What you fail to grasp is me placing my faith in SOME ELSE TO SAVE MY HOPELESS LOST SELF. Is nt me trusting in myself.

Yes, it is, and hat's exactly what it is. What you fail to grasp is that God is the Savior. If one's faith is truly in Christ, it is only because He willed it so. You should give glory to God, not to yourself. If you believe you are saved because YOU placed YOUR FAITH in something, then your faith is in yourself and your placing of it. YOU believe that YOU are saved because of something that YOU did. You don't need a Savior for that since you did it all.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

NOT BY THE WILL OF MAN BUT THE WILL OF GOD. THEY RECIEVE IT THROUGH GOD not themselves

I NEVER SAID THEY DID

THEY RECIEVED GOD. IT WAS HIS GIFT. NOT THEIRS

Yes, it is, and hat's exactly what it is. What you fail to grasp is that God is the Savior. If one's faith is truly in Christ, it is only because He willed it so. You should give glory to God, not to yourself. If you believe you are saved because YOU placed YOUR FAITH in something, then your faith is in yourself and your placing of it. YOU believe that YOU are saved because of something that YOU did. You don't need a Savior for that since you did it all.

dude I am about to go off on your continued slander of what I am saying. You are hard of hearing and can nt grasp the basic truth of what people are saying

not long ago many people Got banned from this sight for this very argument, the reason is because both sides were hard headed, refused to listen to what the other said. And keep slandering the other side.

People get angry and said stuff they should not have said, and because of Got banned.

I will nt stup that low. I will just report you for slandering me with somethign that is not true

You do not have to agree with me, But you have absolutely no right t tell me I am saying something I have NEVER SAID IN MY LIFE.

If you don;t want to humble yourself. Thats on you bro.

But you will not have many friends here doing that

 

[rogerg]

not long ago many people Got banned from this sight for this very argument, the reason is because both sides were hard headed, refused to listen to what the other said. And keep slandering the other side.

If I get banned for speaking the truth, so be it - so go ahead, have at it. Actually, I expect that to happen. And by the way, I slandered no one- you just don't like what I'm saying and I don't do this to make friends I just tell it like it is. What's the matter, you can't take it?

You do not have to agree with me, But you have absolutely no right t tell me I am saying something I have NEVER SAID IN MY LIFE.

Be specific. What did I attribute to you that you didn't say?

 

[brightfame52]

The salvation of the elect reveals the purpose of God

Rom. 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

No election no grace no salvation !

Rom. 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

The elect obtain that for which they seek and the rest are blinded.

Rom. 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded !

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If I get banned for speaking the truth, so be it - so go ahead, have at it. Actually, I expect that to happen.

Truth? Where?
And by the way, I slandered no one- you just don't like what I'm saying [/quote]

If it was just your doctrine, You may be right. But you claim I SAY something which is not true. You do not have the right to claim peole say something they have never said, especially when they have corrected you ultimate times.

By defenition that is bearing false witness. Which according to the law is sin.

Unless your GOD and YOU KNOW THEM better than they do themselves.

Last I looked YOUR NOT GOD

and I don't do this to make friends I just tell it like it is. What's the matter, you can't take it?

No, You do it to push your doctrine down peoples throats. Your not here to discuss the word. Your hear to push YOUR WORD.

This is a BIBLE DISCUSSION FORUM, why are you here if you have no desire to discuss the word/

I can take holding a discussion Been doing that with people I disagree with for years.

I WONT take people bearing false witness against others. Whether I agree with their doctrine or not.

Be specific. What did I attribute to you that you didn't say?

Typical. Come on man, I quoted the post where you bore false witness. And your going to go this route?

You have over and over again said I do not trust Jesus alone. That I believe I must save myself. That I came to faith n my own without any help from God, I can go on ano on and on

This is what your church tells you I believe, Thats not what I believe.

Nw you can either repent and go back to discussing the word. Or you can continue in your slander.

The choice is up to you.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The salvation of the elect reveals the purpose of God

Rom. 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

No election no grace no salvation !

Rom. 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

The elect obtain that for which they seek and the rest are blinded.

Rom. 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded !

The very purpose of God

that just as Moses hint tthe serpent so must the sone of man be lifted up/ THAT WHOEVER BELIEVES will never die but live forever

For God so loved the world. That he gave his only son, That whoever (n that world) believes in him wi not die. But live forever.

Whoever recieves him, to THEM he gave the right to become children of God’

If you knew who I was you would have asked and I would have given you living water

 

[rogerg]

Nw you can either repent and go back to discussing the word. Or you can continue in your slander.

The choice is up to you.

I'm going to continue to speak the truth, period. And your threats will not dissuade me. If you don't like that, or don't like what I say, or how I say it, don't reply to me. I have no need to dialogue with you

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'm going to continue to speak the truth, period. And your threats will not dissuade me. If you don't like that, or don't like what I say, or how I say it, don't reply to me. I have no need to dialogue with you

Like I said you can say whatever you want

But stop your lies about what other people believe

If you want to be trusted as a truth teller. You will just stick to the word. Not telling people they believes things they do not believe

You do not have to like me my friend. I could care less.

But again, I will not stand idly while you slander people. I will expose it.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Rom. 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

What was revealed to Rebekah before the children were born?

Romans 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.



Romans 9:

10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.



Genesis 25:

22 And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD.

23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

 

[fredoheaven]

True belief in Christ is a gift given to some, but not to all. It comes not by our work, but only from/by the Holy Spirit

The problem is you show no verse to support it. Simply you play in circles. Paul reasoned with Felix that is faith in Christ. Acts 24:24.

 

[FreeGrace2]

True belief in Christ is a gift given to some, but not to all. It comes not by our work, but only from/by the Holy Spirit

Rom 10:10 says that man believes from the heart. No verse says that belief comes from God, as you opine.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The salvation of the elect reveals the purpose of God

Rom. 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

No election no grace no salvation !

Rom 9:11 doesn't support your opinion. There are NO verses that teach that salvation is by election. It is by faith.

 

[rogerg]

he problem is you show no verse to support it. Simply you play in circles. Paul reasoned with Felix that is faith in Christ. Acts 24:24.

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

True faith is given only through the Holy Spirit as one of His fruit upon becoming born-again. Just as one cannot give themselves
the Holy Spirit, neither can one give himself true faith (if that's what you're talking about). It is a gift. By this, those saved then receive their faith. Any supposed faith one might produce in-and-of themselves, would be an imperfect man-based faith, and as such, incapable of equating to, or providing righteousness. Only Christ's faith is perfect and therefore equal to righteousness

[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

 

[reneweddaybyday]

@rogerg ... you never did respond to Post #1,426

When God gives you faith "as a gift" do you get to keep the gift?

He gives the Holy Spirit, whose fruit is faith. Once given, the Holy Spirit remains.

We were discussing Ephesians 2:8 (For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God).


in Post #1,342 you indicated God gave you faith as a gift:

okay ... soooo did God give you faith?

Yes, as a gift. Why?

In Post #1,283, you posted Ephesians 2:8:

[Eph 2:8 KJV]
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

and you even bolded the words "grace" ... "through faith" ... "not of yourselves ... "gift of God"

So what is your understanding of Eph 2:8? What is the gift given by God?

Where are we going with this? It would probably be
a lot easier for both of us if you'd just make your point

It would be "easier for both of us" if you would quit waffling and just answer what is the gift given by God according to Ephesians 2:8.


Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

 

[rogerg]

@rogerg ... you never did respond to Post #1,426

You don't see my replies in your posts above ?
In my opinion, the gift of God is God. With Him, and through the Holy Spirit, comes all other spiritual gifts.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

You don't see my replies in your posts above ?
In my opinion, the gift of God is God. With Him, and through the Holy Spirit, comes all other spiritual gifts.

I understand that you don't have faith. sad

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

 

[rogerg]

I understand that you don't have faith. sad

That the best you can come up with? Whatever!