Doctrines like Limited Atonement - why?

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John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,109
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All men = all nations including women, not just Jews any more as in the OT.
Are all nations saved and come to the knowledge of the truth? Are all kings? All that are in authority?
 
Apr 2, 2020
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Well as I have told you free will is not a biblical concept, and "universal atonement" meaning that Jesus bore the sins of all humanity in no way denies God's Grace.

Actually, it affirms God's great love for all people and His desire that all would be persuaded to receive His great gift of salvation.
That people can be persuaded in no way diminishes the sovereignty of God which is something apparently people who follow Calvin's ideas cannot seem to grasp.

Inherent in the very concept of sovereignty is the power of the Sovereign to allow, guide, pursue and sometimes compel, and He acts in many different ways because He is all-knowing and we are not.
Free will is not a Biblical concept? Then why does God present people with choices so often? Why did He lay before the Israelites the choice between life and death if there was no free will ability to accomplish it?

The Augustinian concept of the bondage of the will is not Biblical, though his characterization of Pelagius as forwarding that man is basically good and capable of self-salvation is also not Biblical. We sell ourselves into sin willingly, and THAT makes us slaves.

The issue, though, is that Calvinists and Catholics both teach a doctrine of man in their conception of original sin which came via Augustine and an unfortunate latin translation of Romans 5. The church would be so much better served if it read Jerome, Justin Martyr, and John Cassian on free will rather than placing so much into the writings of Augustine.
 
Jan 17, 2020
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Are all nations saved and come to the knowledge of the truth? Are all kings? All that are in authority?
“For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;” 1 Timothy 2:2–3 (KJV 1900)

“All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.” John 6:37 (KJV 1900)
 
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
113
Free will is not a Biblical concept? Then why does God present people with choices so often? Why did He lay before the Israelites the choice between life and death if there was no free will ability to accomplish it?

The Augustinian concept of the bondage of the will is not Biblical, though his characterization of Pelagius as forwarding that man is basically good and capable of self-salvation is also not Biblical. We sell ourselves into sin willingly, and THAT makes us slaves.

The issue, though, is that Calvinists and Catholics both teach a doctrine of man in their conception of original sin which came via Augustine and an unfortunate latin translation of Romans 5. The church would be so much better served if it read Jerome, Justin Martyr, and John Cassian on free will rather than placing so much into the writings of Augustine.
Free Will = law in the OT. Grace cannot exist where free will does.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
Free will is not a Biblical concept? Then why does God present people with choices so often? Why did He lay before the Israelites the choice between life and death if there was no free will ability to accomplish it?

The Augustinian concept of the bondage of the will is not Biblical, though his characterization of Pelagius as forwarding that man is basically good and capable of self-salvation is also not Biblical. We sell ourselves into sin willingly, and THAT makes us slaves.

The issue, though, is that Calvinists and Catholics both teach a doctrine of man in their conception of original sin which came via Augustine and an unfortunate latin translation of Romans 5. The church would be so much better served if it read Jerome, Justin Martyr, and John Cassian on free will rather than placing so much into the writings of Augustine.
Choice yes... Free will no

"Free will" is philosophical school of thought developed by the ancient Greeks

Augustine was wrong too on the bondage of the will.
He infused his own personal failings into the understanding of scripture... Agree
 
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
113
Choice yes... Free will no

"Free will" is philosophical school of thought developed by the ancient Greeks

Augustine was wrong too on the bondage of the will.
He infused his own personal failings into the understanding of scripture... Agree
Did you ever read Luther's Bondage of the Will? It cannot be proven wrong, only rejected.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,109
3,686
113
“For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;” 1 Timothy 2:2–3 (KJV 1900)

“All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.” John 6:37 (KJV 1900)
You forgot verse 4, who will have all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. Don’t privately interpret this to mean all kinds of men.
 
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
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You forgot verse 4, who will have all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. Don’t privately interpret this to mean all kinds of men.
“All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.” John 6:37 (KJV 1900)
 
Apr 2, 2020
1,144
425
83
Choice yes... Free will no

"Free will" is philosophical school of thought developed by the ancient Greeks

Augustine was wrong too on the bondage of the will.
He infused his own personal failings into the understanding of scripture... Agree

Choice is all that's required for free will. Now, if someone were to argue that they were free from any constraints then yeah that's not Biblical or rational but that's not how free will is commonly understood. We really have the choice whether to follow God or not, free from coercion. We just don't left to our own devices, but the capacity is there.
 
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
113
Choice is all that's required for free will. Now, if someone were to argue that they were free from any constraints then yeah that's not Biblical or rational but that's not how free will is commonly understood. We really have the choice whether to follow God or not, free from coercion. We just don't left to our own devices, but the capacity is there.
Will to be perfect.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
Did you ever read Luther's Bondage of the Will? It cannot be proven wrong, only rejected.
I will add it to my list.

I can state this much as I have already mentioned to you... belief will occur after we are persuaded, convicted, convinced..... these are a passive reaction to hearing truth. We cannot will being persuaded.

Prove that we are incapable of being persuaded... then you may have an argument, but you cannot.

We both know we are fully persuaded of many things day in and day out .... for one you are persuaded of the five points of Calvinism.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
Well as I have told you free will is not a biblical concept, and "universal atonement" meaning that Jesus bore the sins of all humanity in no way denies God's Grace.

Actually, it affirms God's great love for all people and His desire that all would be persuaded to receive His great gift of salvation.
That people can be persuaded in no way diminishes the sovereignty of God which is something apparently people who follow Calvin's ideas cannot seem to grasp.

Inherent in the very concept of sovereignty is the power of the Sovereign to allow, guide, pursue and sometimes compel, and He acts in many different ways because He is all-knowing and we are not.
You cannot perceive that God does not love all mankind. Heb 12:6, For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every soul whom he receiveth. It would then stand to reason that, if there are some that he does not chasten, then he does not love them.

Psalms 73, Truly God is good to Israel (this being Jacob/Israel, Gen 32:28), even to such as are of a clean heart. But as for me, my feet were almost gone; my steps had well nigh slipped, For I was envious at the foolish, when I saw the prosperity of the wicked. For there are no bands in their death; but their strength is firm. They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they PLAGUED (divinely punished) like other men. verse 12-17, Behold, these are the ungodly, who prosper in the world; they increase in riches, Verily I have cleansed my heart in vain, and washed my hands in innocency. For all the day long have I been "plagued," and chastened every morning. When I thought to know this, it was too painful for me; Until I went into the sanctuary of God; Then understood I their end.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
Choice is all that's required for free will. Now, if someone were to argue that they were free from any constraints then yeah that's not Biblical or rational but that's not how free will is commonly understood. We really have the choice whether to follow God or not, free from coercion. We just don't left to our own devices, but the capacity is there.
I would state no... free will means the exercise of choice without any determinants/determinism at any point in a person's life.

That is not reality.
 
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
113
I will add it to my list.

I can state this much as I have already mentioned to you... belief will occur after we are persuaded, convicted, convinced..... these are a passive reaction to hearing truth. We cannot will being persuaded.

Prove that we are incapable of being persuaded... then you may have an argument, but you cannot.

We both know we are fully persuaded of many things day in and day out .... for one you are persuaded of the five points of Calvinism.
A cat cannot be persuaded to be a dog. But if God were to change one into a dog, as he does sinners into saints, no persuasion is necessary.
 
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
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I do, that's why I follow Jesus.
Have you given all your savings to the poor? Do you have a gun? How about impure thoughts? And evil imaginations?
 
Apr 2, 2020
1,144
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I would state no... free will means the exercise of choice without any determinants/determinism at any point in a person's life.

That is not reality.
What you're speaking of is a libertine free will, which I agree is neither Biblical nor rational. But the only question is whether there is any determinant or restriction of the will causing us to not choose to follow Jesus when the gospel is preached. I don't see any such restriction nor do I think that such a restriction is Biblical. After all, does it not say "in a man's heart he plans his way"?
 
Apr 2, 2020
1,144
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Have you given all your savings to the poor? Do you have a gun? How about impure thoughts? And evil imaginations?
Your questions indicate you may not recognize what righteousness is, and have missed the point of Jesus ladling on such strict requirements for perfection.
 
Jan 17, 2020
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Your questions indicate you may not recognize what righteousness is, and have missed the point of Jesus ladling on such strict requirements for perfection.
If you have free will, choose to be perfect.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
A cat cannot be persuaded to be a dog. But if God were to change one into a dog, as he does sinners into saints, no persuasion is necessary.

Okay then lets just take the word "metanoia" out of the bible

Continue on people... obviously I am not able to persuade otherwise :)... this is not unusual when one has cannot step outside of one's "belief system" to give it a careful reexamination.