Doctrines like Limited Atonement - why?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
113

Okay then lets just take the word "metanoia" out of the bible

Continue on people... obviously I am not able to persuade otherwise :)... this is not unusual when one has cannot step outside of one's "belief system" to give it a careful reexamination.
New birth needs no persuasion. You cannot cause yourself to be born, or born again.
 
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
113
I have chosen to be perfect, which is why I have chosen to obey the voice of my Shepherd.
If you were perfect, you wouldn't need Jesus, you would be him. But you think you can choose perfection?
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
What you're speaking of is a libertine free will, which I agree is neither Biblical nor rational. But the only question is whether there is any determinant or restriction of the will causing us to not choose to follow Jesus when the gospel is preached. I don't see any such restriction nor do I think that such a restriction is Biblical. After all, does it not say "in a man's heart he plans his way"?
I am not sure the Greeks used the modifier of "Libertine" in front... but I will check it out.
We have a will....how free it is, is complicated and varies from individual to individual.

I do not see "total inability" as biblical either
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
New birth needs no persuasion. You cannot cause yourself to be born, or born again.
Oh but we are persuaded it is true, just like many in the scriptures.. that is a passive response to truth.

God indeed regenerates... never stated otherwise
 
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
113
Oh but we are persuaded it is true, just like many in the scriptures.. that is a passive response to truth.

God indeed regenerates... never stated otherwise
Only the born again can be persuaded by truth.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
Only the born again can be persuaded by truth.
I know this is what you believe... I do not, I was not born again first I was persuaded first and then born again, I remember plain as day and if it was yesterday.

While subjective yes, I think scripture makes this also an objective truth... "metanoia" is very significant word in the new testament.

Good day sir.. I have left my Calvinists leanings behind I cannot go back.
 
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
113
I know this is what you believe... I do not, I was not born again first I was persuaded first and then born again, I remember plain as day and if it was yesterday.

While subjective yes, I think scripture makes this also an objective truth... "metanoia" is very significant word in the new testament.

Good day sir.. I have left my Calvinists leanings behind I cannot go back.
= you saved yourself?
 
Apr 2, 2020
1,144
425
83
I am not sure the Greeks used the modifier of "Libertine" in front... but I will check it out.
We have a will....how free it is, is complicated and varies from individual to individual.

I do not see "total inability" as biblical either
Ah alright, I'm not sure if the Greeks spoke of it as libertine but that's usually the philosophical concept, just as the Bible never uses certain terms yet we recognize them through theological names.

The whole of Calvins soteriology hinges on total inability. Those who accept that one tenet, which is based on a misread of Romans 5 that many can't see past, and then reading that back into other verses that has come to be to be the lynchpin. If it's accepted, all of the 5-points become both logically and Biblically necessary.
 
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
113
Do what, twist Scripture?
It's worse than twisting scripture. Universal Atonement denies the power of Christ's blood to save people. And turns salvation into a system of works for the self-righteous to save themselves. It also turns God into a bully who threatens to torture those who do not say "uncle", or who refuse to sell themselves to him in trade for eternal pleasure.

This is not the God of the bible who saves those who cannot save themselves at his own expense on the cross.
 
Apr 2, 2020
1,144
425
83
If you were perfect, you wouldn't need Jesus, you would be him. But you think you can choose perfection?
No, I've chosen the path of perfection. He will complete the perfect work He began in me. Not in my own strength, nor am I perfect in the present moment but it is my will to be perfect. Accomplishing that will and desiring it are not the same thing.
 
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
113
No, I've chosen the path of perfection. He will complete the perfect work He began in me. Not in my own strength, nor am I perfect in the present moment but it is my will to be perfect. Accomplishing that will and desiring it are not the same thing.
So your will isn't free?
 

Lightskin

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2019
3,165
3,665
113
If you have free will, choose to be perfect.
Perfection is in the eyes of the beholder.
Conservatives see perfection as the right to openly worship God. Liberals see perfection as God being removed from the social conscience.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
Ah alright, I'm not sure if the Greeks spoke of it as libertine but that's usually the philosophical concept, just as the Bible never uses certain terms yet we recognize them through theological names.

The whole of Calvins soteriology hinges on total inability. Those who accept that one tenet, which is based on a misread of Romans 5 that many can't see past, and then reading that back into other verses that has come to be to be the lynchpin. If it's accepted, all of the 5-points become both logically and Biblically necessary.
hinges on total inability.
And "metanoia" I think absolutely shatters total inability.. the entire Gospel of John works against this concept as well.

I absolutely agree!!!
 
Apr 2, 2020
1,144
425
83
So your will isn't free?
Depends on how you mean that. I can freely walk away if I choose, though He would pursue me if I did. If you mean I cannot choose everything I desire, then no my will is not free.