Does man have a libertarian free will?

[Roughsoul1991]

Can you spot limited atonement in the Old Testament?

Not by your interpretation. I see Jesus from the beginning as a predestined way of redemption for mankind.

God was constantly asked if 1 is righteous wont you let them live. We understand this as God judged the Gentiles by their conscience in Roman's 2.

And then comes the new covenant to include the Gentiles who are grafted in. No longer would a Gentile need to convert to Judaism.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

lol....oh my goodness....

If they were already saved there wouldn't have been a need for him to die on the cross? Jesus said he didn't come for the righteous, but for the sinners....Sorry to burst your bubble, but he didn't die for those who were already saved. He died to give sinners a chance to be saved.

Man I laughed outloud.

 

[Dave-L]

Not by your interpretation. I see Jesus from the beginning as a predestined way of redemption for mankind.

God was constantly asked if 1 is righteous wont you let them live. We understand this as God judged the Gentiles by their conscience in Roman's 2.

And then comes the new covenant to include the Gentiles who are grafted in. No longer would a Gentile need to convert to Judaism.

Surely you can see God did not give Egypt a temple and sacrifices. Or any of the other nations? They were not atoned for.

 

[Dave-L]

lol....oh my goodness....

If they were already saved there wouldn't have been a need for him to die on the cross? Jesus said he didn't come for the righteous, but for the sinners....Sorry to burst your bubble, but he didn't die for those who were already saved. He died to give sinners a chance to be saved.

He paid for their sins so he could justly turn them into believers instead of killing them and sending them to hell.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Surely you can see God did not give Egypt a temple and sacrifices. Or any of the other nations? They were not atoned for.

Yes Roman's 2 explains this.

 

[Dave-L]

Yes Roman's 2 explains this.

Why do all nations other than Israel perish without an atonement if it isn't limited?

 

[1ofthem]

He paid for their sins so he could justly turn them into believers instead of killing them and sending them to hell.

You might want to read Romans 5 it explains the atonement really well.
6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

 

[Dave-L]

You might want to read Romans 5 it explains the atonement really well.
6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Us = the elect.

 

[1ofthem]

Us = the elect.

Well here is the kicker then....ALL MEN
Romans 5
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

 

[Dave-L]

Well here is the kicker then....ALL
Romans 5
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

“For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.” Romans 5:19 (KJV 1900)

 

[1ofthem]

“For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.” Romans 5:19 (KJV 1900)

Yep, and 18 clearly states that all have the choice....All men...is all men...right. The free gift came upon all men....so that....John 3:16 is also true and....

Whosoever will believe shall not perish but have eternal life....Pretty simple and straightforward wouldn't you say.

Also it's not God's will that any should perish....he gave all men the choice....But not all will accept and if they don't it is their own fault and they have no excuse. He made the way and sent his Son to die for all men, and whosoever shall believe will be saved.

 

[Dave-L]

Yep, and 18 clearly states that all have the choice....All men...is all men...right. The free gift came upon all men....so that....John 3:16 is also true and....

Whosoever will believe shall not perish but have eternal life....Pretty simple and straightforward wouldn't you say.

Also it's not God's will that any should perish....he gave all men the choice....But not all will accept and if they don't it is their own fault and they have no excuse. He made the way and sent his Son to die for all men, and whosoever shall believe will be saved.

Here's what it means. Some of all men were constituted, sinners. Some of all men were constituted righteous.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Why do all nations other than Israel perish without an atonement if it isn't limited?

What does this mean to you?

Romans 2:11-15 New International Version (NIV)
11 For God does not show favoritism.
12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

God is all just and even though God chose certain lineage to bring about the Atonement of sin for the world. God was equally judging the Gentiles for their adherence to the moral law. Which was a law unto themselves. But how could God judge them on the written law if they had never heard it?

To me that also means they could of been saved.

Same with how the age of accountability and mental handicap works.

Paul said.
Romans 5
13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.

Romans 7:7
.....Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law

Romans 7:9
9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.

How does your theology handle questions about what of those who never hear? What if a child dies before belief. What happens to the mentally disabled?

 

[Dave-L]

What does this mean to you?

Romans 2:11-15 New International Version (NIV)
11 For God does not show favoritism.
12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

God is all just and even though God chose certain lineage to bring about the Atonement of sin for the world. God was equally judging the Gentiles for their adherence to the moral law. Which was a law unto themselves. But how could God judge them on the written law if they had never heard it?

To me that also means they could of been saved.

Same with how the age of accountability and mental handicap works.

Paul said.
Romans 5
13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.

Romans 7:7
.....Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law

Romans 7:9
9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.

How does your theology handle questions about what of those who never hear? What if a child dies before belief. What happens to the mentally disabled?

It means the inner law condemns every person ever born.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Here's what it means. Some of all men were constituted, sinners. Some of all men were constituted righteous.

That isnt what it says.

When you begin with this is what it means, that is when you begin interpretation.

 

[Dave-L]

That isnt what it says.

When you begin with this is what it means, that is when you begin interpretation.

All men with many saved and many damned is how it works out.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

It means the inner law condemns every person ever born.

I think you like to ignore scriptures. Because it is much more to that. What does this mean?
They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, and at other times even defending them.

Romans 2:11-15 New International Version (NIV)
11 For God does not show favoritism.
12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

How do you interpret Roman's 5:13, Roman's 7:9?

Romans 5
13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.

Romans 7:7
.....Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law

Romans 7:9
9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.

Again how does your theology handle questions about what of those who never hear? What if a child dies before belief. What happens to the mentally disabled?

 

[Dave-L]

I think you like to ignore scriptures. Because it is much more to that. What does this mean?
They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, and at other times even defending them.

Romans 2:11-15 New International Version (NIV)
11 For God does not show favoritism.
12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

How do you interpret Roman's 5:13, Roman's 7:9?

Romans 5
13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.

Romans 7:7
.....Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law

Romans 7:9
9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.

Again how does your theology handle questions about what of those who never hear? What if a child dies before belief. What happens to the mentally disabled?

All are damned by the law in the heart.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

All men with many saved and many damned is how it works out.

The road to life is narrow but the road to destruction is wide. So in your theology the majority is predestined for Hell. Chose for hell. Unelected for hell.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

All are damned by the law in the heart.

But sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.
So the mentally handicapped goes to hell? The infant or child who dies from leukemia goes to hell?

What does it mean if their actions are defending what is right? But have never heard the Gospel?Obviously God is just in how he judges. God cannot contradict himself.