Dr. Michael Brown and the Sabbath Debate

[sparkman]

I think I could sum up my response to all replies to my post like this:

I'm not sure how I'd answer if I was asked if someone could be saved/unsaved based on whether they observe the 7th Day/Saturday Sabbath or not, but I don't necessarily have a dog in that particular fight.

All debates can be simplified to the most basic element so let me just propose this simplification of the concept.

-Who blessed the 7th day of the week?

-Who commanded that it be remembered or observed as a day of worship?

-Who blessed the 1st day of the week?

-Who commanded that it be remembered or observed as a day of worship?

If we're talking about how Sunday came to be the modern, mainstream Christian day of worship using all of history, according to the Bible, as a reference, there are only two days of the week with which to choose from.

If 'Man' covers the answers for one of those days and 'God' is the answer for the other, where do 'YOU' stand?

Who was the Sabbath given to? Ancient Israel, as a sign of the Mosaic Covenant. I'm not a party to that covenant, and it is not in effect now anyways. Neither are the signs relating to it , which include the Sabbath and physical circumcision (II Corinthians 3, Galatians 3 and 4, Hebrews 8 and 9, Acts 15, Ephesians 2:13-15, Romans 7:1-7).

Colossians 2:16-17 specifically says that the Sabbath and festivals no longer apply.

Sometimes Sabbath observers try to twist these verses to say that the Colossians were the observers, and others were judging them for observance. First question I'd ask is who is usually doing the judging, both in the New Testament and today? In the New Testament it was Judaizers; today it is usually the cultic fringe of Sabbath observers who claim it's required of all believers, and those who don't keep it are in sin. Colossians 2:16-17 addresses a group of people who were judging, and as Acts 15, Galatians, and Philippians 3 indicate, Judaizers love to judge.

Christians are free to observe whatever day they want. Romans 14 states this plainly. Most of us choose the day of the resurrection, because we worship the resurrected Christ.

The Sabbath was never given to Gentiles anyways, It was a sign of the Mosaic covenant between God and Israel (Exodus 31).


Where did God command Gentiles to observe the Sabbath? Why isn't Sabbath-breaking included in the sin lists to the Gentiles? Why did Jesus appear to disciples on Sunday twice after the resurrection, but never on a Sabbath, that it was recorded? Why don't we read about conflicts between Christian slaves and their Gentile masters concerning keeping the Sabbath if it is a requirement?

I stand with the risen Christ and worship on the day of his resurrection He is my Sabbath-rest (Matthew 11:28-30, Hebrews 4:9-10, Colossians 2:16-17).

Claiming the Sabbath is in effect is in essence the same thing as claiming that physical circumcision is required under the New Covenant. Physical circumcision and Sabbath observance were signs of the Mosaic Covenant, which is no longer in effect. I'm not an Israelite under the Mosaic Covenant.

However, I have no issue with others choosing Saturday as a worship day. Romans 14 grants that liberality...choose whatever day you want. Don't judge others as being inferior or unsaved over it, though, like I did as an Armstrongite. It is not the "test commandment" for a New Covenant believer, unlike the cultic fringes of Sabbath observers claim.

In fact, I wouldn't mind going to a Christ-centered fellowship, with solid doctrine, that met on Sabbath and observed the festivals, IF they didn't claim other Christians needed to observe them. Unfortunately all groups I know about in this area are weirdos like the cult I was involved with, who are engaged in judging other Christians as unsaved or inferior spiritually. No thanks. I spent enough of my life hanging out with such individuals. I've met a few Messianic Jews (from Jews for Jesus) that seem to be cool, but a lot of them are weird as well, denying the full deity of Christ, the Triune nature of God, the writings of Paul, and accepting extra-biblical writings as inspired or authoritative. And, until the Seventh Day Adventist church quits quoting Ellen G. White, imposing extra-biblical dietary requirements, claiming Sunday observers are potentially going to be under the Mark of the Beast, and practicing elective abortions in their health care facilities, I have no regard for them either, although I like most of the SDAs I've met.

 

[TMS]

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

There are 2 extremes and Satan doesn't mind if you are going to either side.
Legalism - like the Pharisees that made the keeping of the law there salvation.
Grace does away with the law (what do i call this extreme) - Where you say there is no Law because keeping the law is works and our works count for nothing.

Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Paul explains it well. We have become dead to the Law because Christ has taken our place and taken our punishment.
The law doesn't have a case against us if we have Christ as our representative.
But He doesn't say to not keep the law and make it void. He tells us to serve it.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. (One of the Ten Commandments)
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Paul is saying not to keep the law to be saved because we all fail and are condemned to death by the law.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

How is the righteousness of the Law fulfilled in us?
If i walk after the Spirit, and I’m Spiritually minded I’ll delight in the Law like Paul.
If Christ dwells in me He will keep the Law in me and I’m not keeping it to be saved or disobeying the law by grace.

Righteousness = Obedience to The law of God
righteousness by faith is ??????

 

[AVoiceintheWilderness]

Interesting replies.

I'm not in any cult, nor am I Jewish or SDA; and I haven't posted a single word about Salvation or judging anyone for anything.

I'm simply a Bible-believing Christian that studies the Word of God.

Michael Brown and others attempt to use the argument that if you can't keep every single Sabbath law perfectly and to the exact point that every detail of scripture might mention, then you're not actually keeping the Sabbath or that you're falsely keeping the Sabbath or that you're supporting a perspective that you don't live in some hypocritical way.

But I propose that neither Michael Brown nor any other Christian that has ever lived has lived the perfect life that Jesus lived so, by this false logic, none of us should even try to be like Jesus because we'll never achieve His perfection.

Since we can't obey a commandment perfectly to the letter of the law, we shouldn't even waste our time, right?

Wrong.

For we all stumble in many things. (James 3:2) Yet, we all continue to get up and get right back at it for the love of our Faith and our Father in Heaven.

If all of the modern mainstream Christians who never read their Bible choose to worship on Sunday so as to be right with 'man', so be it. God winks at ignorance.(Acts 17:30) But once you know that you're choosing Man's word over God's Word, you're held responsible.

If anyone prays with a heart for Truth and asks God to lead them through His word, their eyes just might be opened to new perspectives. For no man comes to Jesus but those called by God and they shall all be taught by God, 'NOT' by man. (John 6:44-45)...also (Isa.54:13; Jer.31:34; John 14:26; 1 Thess. 4:9; Heb. 12:11)

As far as the Star Trek image: I've yet to hear anyone who opposes the 7th day Sabbath quote a single verse from scripture anywhere, OT or NT, that states that we are supposed to worship on Sunday. Sure you can do whatever you like, worship every day, but to say that Sunday should be the day of worship, based on zero scriptural support, is much more questionable than to worship on the one day the Bible 'DOES' very clearly tell us to remember and to worship and gives ample evidence of Jesus, the disciples and the later apostles observing and worshipping on that very day.

Are we not to live as Jesus lived? (1 John 2:6) What day did Jesus worship?

I'm not condemning anyone for anything, I'm just pointing out what is made absolutely crystal clear by scripture.

God Bless.

 

[TMS]

How many times did God command gentiles to worship on the Sabbath?

-If you love me keep my commandments?
-If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
-If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
-For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
-The sabbath was made for man, (jews and gentiles) and not man for the sabbath:
-but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
-By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
-For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
-And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
-Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.



Spock may not of noticed these ones.

 

[TMS]

No Law = no accountability
No accountability = do what ever we want and it is not wrong.

No Law = No Sin
No Sin = No need for a Saviour

 

[Ahwatukee]

No Law = no accountability
No accountability = do what ever we want and it is not wrong.

No Law = No Sin
No Sin = No need for a Saviour

Why do people think that because they are not under the law that they are free to sin? Do you understand that we are under a different covenant?

"NIV - Romans 3:19-24
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

Whenever anyone brings in another requirement for salvation along side of Christ's sacrifice, they are basically saying that Christ's sacrifice was insufficient. Don't be one of the "Many" who will say to Jesus, "but Lord, Lord!"

 

[TMS]

Why do people think that because they are not under the law that they are free to sin? Do you understand that we are under a different covenant?

"NIV - Romans 3:19-24
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

Whenever anyone brings in another requirement for salvation along side of Christ's sacrifice, they are basically saying that Christ's sacrifice was insufficient. Don't be one of the "Many" who will say to Jesus, "but Lord, Lord!"

I'm not saying that Jesus was insufficient in any way. He is my righteousness, there is no other way than by faith alone.
Paul as you quoted is saying that the Law is condemning us all as sinners "through the law we become conscious of sin."
All have sinned? Why are you a sinner in need of a saviour?

 

[TMS]

Ahwatukee you answered my question in the other thread,, forget this one.

 

[sparkman]

How many times did God command gentiles to worship on the Sabbath?

-If you love me keep my commandments?
-If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
-If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
-For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
-The sabbath was made for man, (jews and gentiles) and not man for the sabbath:
-but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
-By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
-For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
-And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
-Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.



Spock may not of noticed these ones.

Physical circumcision was a commandment under the Mosaic Covenant, too...do you claim that Christians must be physically circumcised?

The same arguments that you would use in regards to the Sabbath apply to physical circumcision.

See my thread on this:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/117464-sabbath-circumcision-comparison.html

Colossians 2:16-17 plainly includes Sabbaths, festivals, and New Moons as part of the things which were shadows or types under the Mosaic Covenant, which is no longer in effect (II Corinthians 3, Galatians 3 and 4, Hebrews 8 and 9, Ephesians 2:13-15, Romans 7:1-6).

See my thread on this:

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...-17-sabbath-festival-new-moon-observance.html

Question: Why isn't Sabbath-breaking and eating unclean meats included in any of the sin lists to the Gentiles? If Sabbath was a requirement, then why don't we see instructions on how to keep it, and warnings against breaking it, in the letters to the Gentiles?

By the way, those who meet on Sunday usually don't claim the Sabbath was moved to Sunday...they simply state the Sabbath is no longer in effect, but they meet on Sunday because it is the day the Lord Jesus rose from the grave.

One of my friends introduced me to Meno Kalisher and the Jerusalem Assembly. I watched some of their videos recently, namely the one on the purpose of the Law. It is excellent if anyone is interested:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-PstVcQ8oQ

I suggest listening to the many videos he has on the festivals and other topics in order to get a good perspective of them from a Messianic Jew who isn't a rock-throwing Judaizer.

As I have said in the past, I would not mind belonging to a Christ-centered church that had good doctrine which met on Saturday and kept festivals, but there is no such group in this area. I don't hang out with rock-throwing Judaizers, though, and a lot of the "Torah observers" are those sorts of people. They cannot help being that way, because their concept of sin demands it. Been there, done that, bought the T Shirt.

By the way, my understanding of I John 3:4 is that sin (the behavior) is caused by rebellion (the motivation). John was speaking about the source of sin, which is generated by a rebellion against God. However, if one wants to view "the law" or "the commandments" as God's moral law, I have no issue with it, but Sabbath-breaking isn't a sin because the Sabbath is no longer applicable and neither is the Mosaic Covenant as a whole.

How do I define sin? Any variation from God's holiness. I don't confine God's holiness to a list of laws given to ancient Israel.

 

[prove-all]

Colossians 2:16-17 specifically says that the Sabbath and festivals no longer apply.

Those bible verses say no such thing.

Colossians 2:16-17 plainly includes Sabbaths, festivals, and New Moons as part of
the things which were shadows or types under the Mosaic Covenant

this verse says Gods Sabbaths, that pertains to things to come , a [future tence].
we also have bible verses in furture mill. everyone will be keeping Gods laws .
the sabbaths are mentioned as being in affect then the in future, not done away.

 

[prove-all]

Physical circumcision was a commandment under the Mosaic Covenant,
do you claim that Christians must be physically circumcised?

In the Bible we find that there are over 40 verses from Paul alone as to why
circumcision is not done anymore. How important are the Ten Commandments
in comparison to circumcision?

1 Corinthians 7:19
“Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing,
but the keeping of the Commandments of God.”

If Paul says that the Ten Commandments are what matters and Circumcision is nothing,
and we have more than forty verses and up to ten verses at a time explaining that
Circumcision of the flesh is not relevant anymore, then how many scriptures should
we expect to have telling us that the Sabbath is changed to Sunday?

The fact of the matter is that there is not one scripture that says,
“The Sabbath is now Sunday.”

Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

 

[JesusLives]

True christians dont run away. They defend the truth. just sayin

True Christians also know when to shake the dust off their feet and walk away when no one is listening.

 

[JesusLives]

Genesis 2:
1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Exodus 20:

[SUP]8 [/SUP]Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
[SUP]10 [/SUP]But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Just please note that the 7th day of rest also noted as the Sabbath is referenced in the creation week in both Genesis and Exodus and it is hard to say it is just a Mosaic law when God Himself referenced creation in the 10 commandments that He wrote by the way in stone with His own finger....

 

[prove-all]

How do I define sin? Any variation from God's holiness.
I don't confine God's holiness to a list of laws given to ancient Israel.

the bible says

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law:
for sin is the transgression of the law.

Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.​

​

 

[prove-all]

the Sabbath was never given to Gentiles

-the gentials or other people where allowed to become part of Israel, but had to conform

One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.

Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among
the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.

This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in
the mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received [the lively oracles to give unto us]:

-Jesus was the one in the wilderness, what are the oracles of God given to us for from Him?





Proverbs 28:4 (KJV)
They that forsake the law praise the wicked: but such as keep the law contend with them.

 

[garee]

Those bible verses say no such thing.


this verse says Gods Sabbaths, that pertains to things to come , a [future tence].
we also have bible verses in furture mill. everyone will be keeping Gods laws .
the Sabbaths are mentioned as being in affect then the in future, not done away.

Sabbath laws represent the eternal rest we have in Christ as we rest from our own works. Of themselves (shadows) they offer no substance. They say such things as ceremonial laws that are required but again....provide no substance(saving grace) .They like the ceremonial law of circumcision are used as parables to announce the suffering of Christ beforehand or point back.This would include the old testament ceremonial law of H2o baptism necessary as a shadow but provide no saving grace. .

It is not something we can use to judge or evaluate one another. Required yes, as that which could profit , no.

They will not be done away with until the new heavens and earth appear.

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

 

[Grace777x70]

Jesus fulfilled the law for us which is why we are not under it so Matt. 5:18 has been fulfilled in God's eyes now. The law is dead to us believers but still in effect for those not in Christ.

We now live from the law of the spirit of life in Christ, the law of love and the law of liberty, the law of faith and it is all basically - the law of Jesus in us - in the new man of the heart...the new creation in Christ.

We live from an exchanged life now that we are in Christ. We can trust the Holy Spirit in us to lead us in this new life as we learn to live from the life of Another within us. Love is the fulfillment of the law.

The purpose of the law as Paul showed us is outlined below - Paul was the Pharisee of the Pharisee and understood the law better then anyone in his day :

1) To reveal our sinful state. Rom 3:20

2) To inflame sin Rom 7:8

3) To minister death in us Rom 7:10-11

4) To lead us to Christ Gal 3:24

The law is good and holy! But the purpose of the law was not for righteousness or salvation at all, it was to manifest sin in our lives, so that the purpose of grace which is in Jesus is to manifest salvation.

Grace does not set aside the law, but completely satisfied it.

Col 2:13-15 is where in says that Christ "disarmed" satan having cancelled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and He nailed it to the cross. Satan uses the law against us. Satan comes and says to you - you broke the law - you are condemned now according to the law.

BUT our Lord took that punishment for breaking that law for us. When Christ takes away the condemnation of the law which satan uses against when he accuses us - he is being "disarmed". If disarmed means anything - it means he did have a weapon but now he doesn't because of our Lord. How great is our salvation in Him!

 

[Markum1972]

I get a bit confused about this subject. I have LOTS of questions.

If the commandment to keep the Sabbath holy is no longer true, then why did Jesus and the early Christians do so?

If the laws are no longer to be followed, then why did Jesus emphasize keeping the commandments in his teachings?

If the laws are to be abolished, does one that follows this teaching find it acceptable to break the other commandments as well? I.e. commit murder, adultery, idolatry, etc... If not, then who determines which commandments are important and which are not?

If keeping the Sabbath holy is not important, then why do Satanists believe that those that keep the Sabbath holy are protected and untouchable by their spells and curses? Why is it such an important agenda for Satanists to promote deception about when the Sabbath is and how to keep it holy?

Why have I heard so many testimonies from people about how God began to bless them when they began keeping the Sabbath? If God doesn't care about the Sabbath anymore, then why would he bless them?

I understand that keeping the Sabbath is extremely inconvenient for most people living in the world these days, but are we not supposed to be separate from the world? Shouldn't we maybe trust that God knew what he was doing when he created and numbered the days? Were we not made in his image, and if so, then resting every seventh day like our father would seem appropriate if that was the day he created for it, no?

People that keep the Sabbath holy are constantly met with opposition from the world. Why does it seem so important that they be stopped from doing so?

Just some things to think about. I don't actually expect anyone to have answers to support not sacrificing one day of the week for the Lord. I really don't even see it as a sacrifice if you love the Lord with all heart, mind, soul, and strength. Ah... bu there I go quoting the commandments again. I guess that is probably meaningless to anyone that believes we shouldn't obey the laws of God.

Sometimes I get the impression that people think that God made a lot of big mistakes when he was first starting out and that Jesus came to fix them. The law that we are no longer under is the law of sin and death, and that freedom we have through faith in Jesus; NOT freedom to break the laws of God. Look in the scriptures, you will clearly see which law we are free from.

How can you tell when a child loves his parents? The child trusts their judgment and obeys them. A rebellious child reasons as to why they should not have to do what was told of them. This is why Jesus said, "If anyone loves me, they will hear my commandments and do them."

 

[sparkman]

the bible says

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law:
for sin is the transgression of the law.

Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.​

​

Part of the law (the Torah) was physical circumcision...do you claim that a man must be physically circumcised to be saved?

Your claims concerning the Sabbath are the same thing.

By the way, my biggest issue with Armstrongites is not the Sabbath, festivals, and clean/unclean meats..it is their blasphemous claim that they will be God in the resurrection, just like God the Father and Jesus Christ, and that the Christian life is about proving one's self worthy of possessing God's omnipotence.

I have no issue with normal Sabbath observers who don't claim that other Christians who may meet on Sunday or another day are unsaved, spiritually inferior or in sin for non-observance. Those are the ones I consider to be Judaizers.

 

[TMS]

Because Jesus Kept the Law perfectly and i am saved by His righteousness does that mean i can continue in sin and stay a slave to it. Or when I believe by faith, does the Law get taken away and murder or lying isn't a sin anymore.

When I keep the sabbath it can't save me because ill fail to do it perfectly. But do i give up? No. the sabbath was made FOR man. A day that God set aside, and made Holy. I remember the day not to be saved but because it is a blessing.
It can be a blessing or a burden depending on why you keep it. I love to rest from this busy world and remember my creator and saviour and I'm glad He commanded me to do no work because I'd get side tracked easily.