Eternal Security You CANNOT lose your salvation! by David J. Stewart | January 2004

Grace777x70 · Feb 12, 2017

We have to keep 2 aspects in mind when interpreting scriptures on salvation.

Works-based believers and those taught that one can lose salvation see the warning scriptures and "interpret" those to mean that one loses salvation as in going to be with the Lord for eternity. ( and we should be admonished to listen to these warning scriptures )

This type of mindset does not know the love and grace of God for people and thus they develop a fear based religion of works "to keep one saved".

1 John 4:18-19 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

[SUP]19 [/SUP] We love, because He first loved us.

Salvation manifests itself here in this earth and also for going to be with the Lord because we are in Christ - sealed by the Holy Spirit when we believed as Paul said in Eph. 1:13 ; 4:30.

Start shooting heroin in your arms today and you will NOT experience salvation - that is life and wholeness on this earth for very long.

Confuse the 2 and we will come up with all kinds of works-based salvationists views - like we lose our righteousness. We don't have our "own" righteousness. Christ Himself is our righteousness.

I believe we have to differentiate between "going to heaven to be with the Lord " salvation and - "being saved from the things that can destroy us here while being on this earth."

There are different manifestations of salvation in Christ - one is going to be with the Lord - the other is concerning the things of this life on earth.

The promised land is a type of being in Christ now - it is not a type of heaven as there will be no giants to fight in heaven.

Moses did not get to rest in what God had already provided for the Israelites - but yet Moses is with God now.

The promised land is a type of living here on this earth by believing in the promises of God. Only Caleb and Joshua were the ones that got to experience the promises of God in the promised land because they believed in what God had said.

We can inherit now in this life some things that are of the kingdom of God because the kingdom of God is within us...however if we don't have our minds renewed to the truth in Christ ( which includes living by the Spirit within us ) - we can not experience the things of the kingdom that are available to us believers.

Scripture uses the same Greek word - " salvation, saved " = wholeness, preservation, keep safe, deliverance, make well - for both being saved from things in this life and for going to be with the Lord for eternity.

If we don't understand this difference we will continually be mis-applying scriptures that talk about "being saved here in this life from things" and "going to be with the Lord".

There is eternal salvation and there is a manifestation of salvation from temporal things while on this earth. Confuse the two and we end up with a mixed up message of self-effort for going to heaven and only the blood of Jesus does that.

Jesus is either our Savior for going to be in heaven with Him or we are our own savior by helping Him. One is by grace through faith-righteousness - the other is works-righteousness.

Let's just rely on the Holy Spirit to reveal the things of Christ to us.

We are safe in the Lord Jesus Christ and we can trust Him to do what He has He will do and has already done for us.

We have a great salvation in Him! We can trust the Lord when He said "I will never leave you nor forsake you!"

The proper teaching of the gospel of Christ and what He has already done for us will provide the "nutrients" for the new creation in Christ which has been created in righteousness and holiness to manifest His life in and through us - and yes this also shows in our behavior.

As we have received Christ our Lord - so we walk in Him - and it is all by grace through faith. Col. 2:6

His love which is in us will come forth and bear much fruit. The behavior is a "fruit of salvation" - it does not produce salvation. Only Christ Himself is our true salvation - it is "in Him".

FranC · Feb 12, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

I have to agree with PeterJens no. 480.

I listened to the Whole video and here's what I think and also why you don't understand my position as demonstrated from your comments above.

JESUS DOES NOT LEAVE US.
WE LEAVE HIM.

I know people that have abandoned God for one reason for another. But you'll say they were never saved to begin with. As if YOU can know who is saved and who isn't.

Salvation is not guaranteed. It's dependent on our receiving God's grace and keeping it.
I cannot continue to repeat this and also, you'll find that this back and forth will not be a usual occurance with me.

I DO believe that you're getting Law and Grace mixed up with loss of salvation and eternal security.
We are living under Grace. That is without doubt.

It's the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.
The New Covenant gurantees salvation AS LONG AS YOU ARE IN IT.

If you decide to leave it, there is no salvation. There is no salvation OUTSIDE of God.
I's that simple.

Please tell me one theologian that belived in OSAS BEFORE John Calvin.

IOW, every theologian before him and for 1,500 years was DUMB. We had to wait for HIM to come along and properly interpret the bible?

Fran

FranC · Feb 12, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

We have to keep 2 aspects in mind when interpreting scriptures on salvation.

Works-based believers and those taught that one can lose salvation see the warning scriptures and "interpret" those to mean that one loses salvation as in going to be with the Lord for eternity. ( and we should be admonished to listen to these warning scriptures )

This type of mindset does not know the love and grace of God for people and thus they develop a fear based religion of works "to keep one saved".

1 John 4:18-19 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

[SUP]19 [/SUP] We love, because He first loved us.

Salvation manifests itself here in this earth and also for going to be with the Lord because we are in Christ - sealed by the Holy Spirit when we believed as Paul said in Eph. 1:13 ; 4:30.

Start shooting heroin in your arms today and you will NOT experience salvation - that is life and wholeness on this earth for very long.

Confuse the 2 and we will come up with all kinds of works-based salvationists views - like we lose our righteousness. We don't have our "own" righteousness. Christ Himself is our righteousness.

I believe we have to differentiate between "going to heaven to be with the Lord " salvation and - "being saved from the things that can destroy us here while being on this earth."

There are different manifestations of salvation in Christ - one is going to be with the Lord - the other is concerning the things of this life on earth.

The promised land is a type of being in Christ now - it is not a type of heaven as there will be no giants to fight in heaven.

Moses did not get to rest in what God had already provided for the Israelites - but yet Moses is with God now.

The promised land is a type of living here on this earth by believing in the promises of God. Only Caleb and Joshua were the ones that got to experience the promises of God in the promised land because they believed in what God had said.

We can inherit now in this life some things that are of the kingdom of God because the kingdom of God is within us...however if we don't have our minds renewed to the truth in Christ ( which includes living by the Spirit within us ) - we can not experience the things of the kingdom that are available to us believers.

Scripture uses the same Greek word - " salvation, saved " = wholeness, preservation, keep safe, deliverance, make well - for both being saved from things in this life and for going to be with the Lord for eternity.

If we don't understand this difference we will continually be mis-applying scriptures that talk about "being saved here in this life from things" and "going to be with the Lord".

There is eternal salvation and there is a manifestation of salvation from temporal things while on this earth. Confuse the two and we end up with a mixed up message of self-effort for going to heaven and only the blood of Jesus does that.

Jesus is either our Savior for going to be in heaven with Him or we are our own savior by helping Him. One is by grace through faith-righteousness - the other is works-righteousness.

Let's just rely on the Holy Spirit to reveal the things of Christ to us.

We are safe in the Lord Jesus Christ and we can trust Him to do what He has He will do and has already done for us.

We have a great salvation in Him! We can trust the Lord when He said "I will never leave you nor forsake you!"

The proper teaching of the gospel of Christ and what He has already done for us will provide the "nutrients" for the new creation in Christ which has been created in righteousness and holiness to manifest His life in and through us - and yes this also shows in our behavior.

As we have received Christ our Lord - so we walk in Him - and it is all by grace through faith. Col. 2:6

His love which is in us will come forth and bear much fruit. The behavior is a "fruit of salvation" - it does not produce salvation. Only Christ Himself is our true salvation - it is "in Him".

Grace,
Everything you say above about salvation is true. Many don't know that it also means for here.

I do believe you're getting Grace mixed up with eternal salvation.

Seems like we agree on pretty much everything except this one aspect.
We're still brothers in Christ.

Blessings
Fran

PeterJens · Feb 12, 2017

A christian gets the love Christ has planted in their soul.
The fruit of this love is righteousness.
Denial of this love is sin and death.

The lie is simple.

Now the lie is love in the heart is impossible.
We just have a superficial external covering and no victory.
We sin because we stay sinners, and we can never stop this.
The real evil people are those saying victory is real.

So the law of Christ is just condemnation, righteousness an illusion,
and continual sin and defeat our inheritence. So our light is we are loved
despite our abject poverty.

You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.

19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent. 20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.
Rev 3:17-20

So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.
Rev 3:16

Guardian1970 · Feb 12, 2017

How true Fran, how true. If you reject him, which a person "can" then you can be lost. If we have drank if the wine and ate of the bread of the King Who would want too.....u less as you said, the took the steps, but never surrendered. Therefore they never truly felt or knew him, or where Irma again. Otherwise I don't see why as soon as someon wins after being saved they wouldn't immediately repent and being their race, in chasing God

Guardian1970 · Feb 12, 2017

Sorry, I type on this phone and have many errors. I don't re read and post sometimes

Guardian1970 · Feb 12, 2017

U less is unless
Or why would they reject him again?
Why as soon as someone sins, not (wins) lol
I cannot type in these phones

phil36 · Feb 12, 2017

FranC said:

Hi Fran,

This post isn't aimed at you, it's only cause you mentioned Calvin and OSAS. It's for anyone who wants to learn what these term means. It will help both sides of the debate, because some say they are OSAS and yet sound more like Eternal security etc etc.

Calvinists/reformed don't use OSAS, but rather what is called 'Perseverance of the Saints' (you must persevere, yet only through Faith).

Eternal security, or that system is one which I wouldn't go with, and then there's OSAS, which is close to Perseverance of the Saints. I only bring this up because I hear everyone using these terms and not even know what they actually mean.

Here's a good link with very small summaries.

https://carm.org/what-is-the-differ...d-always-saved-and-perseverance-of-the-saints

I hope this helps anyone interested in the differences of similar views.

FranC · Feb 13, 2017

Guardian1970 said:

I understand about the phone,
but I still don't really understand.
Are you saying that if someone is "truly" saved, they can never turn away from God?

Fran

dcontroversal · Feb 13, 2017

FranC said:

Even if we believe not HE ABIDES FAITHFUL <---why? BECAUSE HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF..........It is HIS faith that is applied unto us eternally....

Whatsoever God does it is everlasting.....INCLUDING saving someone

The words eternal. everlasting mean exactly that.lose it the words used would be temporary!

FranC · Feb 13, 2017

phil36 said:

Hi Phil,
If you've noticed I usually use the term "eternal salvation", as does the writer of your link when he's speaking in general terms.

Sometimes I'll use OSAS because everyone seems to want to use that term.

I also unerstand Perseverance of the Saints, although I'd have to say that both P of the S and eternal security is a work of God in that the Holy Spirit is working within you.

With P of the S it is IMPOSSIBLE (according to Calvin) to fall away.

Instead with eternal security it IS possible to fall away; but those who are "OSAS" believers will not accept this.

I would like to ask you if you believe that backsliding is the same as falling away.

As far as I'm concerned, there's a difference. But terms are used so loosely these days.

Backsliding.....sinning
Falling away...abandoning God, or turning away from God and returning to the world.

Fran

notuptome · Feb 13, 2017

FranC said:

There is a huge difference between turning back to the world and turning back to eternal condemnation. No person who has ever gotten saved and knows it was from sin's awful judgment that they were saved could ever even imagine going back. The lake of fire is so terrible and the idea of burning for all of eternity in outer darkness is so fearful that no man could having seen the goodness of God ever turn back to it.

The three things the Holy Spirit convicts a soul about to bring them to Christ is sin, righteousness and the judgment of God. God's punishment on sin is so terrible that man cannot begin to comprehend it. The Holy Spirit needs only to reveal it to make man see the urgent need to be saved.

If you have not experienced it you may have an issue. Men get saved when they are drawn to Christ. Men do not come to Christ by their own volition.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

FranC · Feb 13, 2017

dcontroversal said:

Ok dcontroversal

Let's go through the scripture you posted.
BTW, you really SHOULD post the book, chapter and verse.

2 Timothy 2:11-13 New International Version (NIV)

11 Here is a trustworthy saying:

If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12 if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13 if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.

First of all it is OUR faith that is applied to us eternally.
What faith do you suppose Jesus could have for us? Of course He has faith! He's God.
It's US who must have faith in Him. Is it not that faith that saves us?
Ephesians 2:8

verse 11 When we come to believe, we die to ourselves, a new creature is born, and we will be raised to be like Him.
Romans 6:5

verse 12 IF WE ENDURE, to the end. we will also reign with Him. In
Mathew 9:28 Jesus Himself says that those who HAVE FOLLOWED Him (the Apostles) will also sit with Him .
If the Apostles were required to continue following Him, are we not??
Because if we DENY Him, He will also DENY us.

verse 13 Even if we are FAITHLESS: Proving that it IS possible to be faithless...
He remains faithful for He cannot deny Himself
Jesus will remain faithful to His word and carry out all His promises. One of which is NOT to save unblievers.

There is much commentary on this and there's too much to get into here.
You might want to read this entire page, I like this one sentence from McLaren:

But, further, unwavering faith is the only thing that truly corresponds to unchanging faithfulness

Here' the link:
2 Timothy 2:13 Commentaries: If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

It would do well for everyone to understand that they are safe and sound as long as they are IN THE LORD.

Fran

phil36 · Feb 13, 2017

To me 1 John 2:18-19 is quite explicit about those who fall away fully.

FranC · Feb 13, 2017

notuptome said:

The world IS eternal condemnation.

Can you not speak about this without referring to my own personal state of salvation?

Apparently you refuse to understand very important verses which I've listed ad infinitum on this thread.
I suppose it's more reassuring to you to ignore them all.

Here are just two, again. Maybe you'd care to explain them instead of worrying about MY soul?

Hebrews 6:4-6
2 Peter 2:20-22
Mathew 13:20-21

Fran

dcontroversal · Feb 13, 2017

FranC said:

No thanks....a commentary is just a regurgitation of what someone else believes and it is the faith of Christ that saves and justifies us...not our faith

In the grace you are (positioning) having been saved out of faith and that NOT OF YOURSELVES, it is the gift of GOD, not of works lest any man should boast...

THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES is DIRECTED at the FAITH that SAVES......

FranC · Feb 13, 2017

phil36 said:

Of course you know I disagree.

Jesus said that many wearing sheep's clothing come to the flock but are really wolves.

So are you saying that everyone who falls aways was a false prophet and anti-Christ?
Surely not!

You must know about Justification.
Galatians 2:16-21
Galatians 2:17-18

We are justified through Christ. By faith.
verse 18
IF one rebuilds on what was destroyed, he is a transgressor.

This is speaking about the Law. One cannot start out with Faith, and then go back to the Law.

What does it mean? Again, that it is FAITH that saves us.

To be saved we must HAVE faith...NOW, not years ago, but NOW. This is what enduring is about.
Otherwise, could you please tell me why we must ENDURE? It must be for something very important if we are exhorted to endure throughout the entire New Testament.

Fran

phil36 · Feb 13, 2017

FranC said:

Hi Fran,

I would agree with James, that those who go out (fall away) James 2:18-19, where never part of us. They are worse than those who do not really know the gospel. The writer of Hebrews explains this very well:

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. (Hebrews 6:4-6)

This does not mean that they were part of the invisible church that is Justified, but they were part of the visible church, they were given the light of the gospel and all the benefits of congregating with the elect, they tasted the heavenly gift, but were never real partakers.. a false faith.

mailmandan · Feb 14, 2017

phil36 said:

once enlightened - The word enlightened means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. Figuratively, photizo means to give guidance or understanding, to make clear or to cause something to be known by revealing clearly. John 1:9 describes Jesus, the "true Light," giving light "to every man"; but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. This light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject such light.

partakers of the Holy Spirit - Partakers describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an enterprise or undertaking. It speaks of those who are participators in something. Business partner, companion. Participating in. Accomplice in. Comrade. Metochos is used elsewhere in Hebrews in the context of believers (Hebrews 3:14 - "For we have become partakers of Christ") and thus the statement that the readers have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit seems at first glance to be support that true believers are being addressed, yet there are other ministries of the Holy Spirit that precede the indwelling of believers. It is very plausible to envision an individual becoming a sharer in or partaker of the Spirit (and his pre-salvation ministry - convicting of sin, righteousness and judgment to come) by responding for a time to His drawing power intended to lead sinners to Christ. The translation "shared" implies something done in company with others and before salvation all believers shared in the convicting ministry of the Spirit Who drew them to salvation. Note also that the writer does not state that these individuals were "indwelt by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit" or "possessors of the Spirit's pledge (guarantee) of future inheritance."

tasted the good word of God - They had tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of its character and quality, yet they still turned away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept the thing that is tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." Do we taste into one Spirit or drink into one Spirit? (1 Corinthians 12:13).

fall away - I find it interesting that the term "fall away" or "stumble" was used by the Lord Jesus of His 11 disciples at the time of His arrest. The disciples deserted Jesus as was predicted and Peter obviously denied Jesus three times. They were said to "fall away." Matthew 26:31 - Then Jesus said to them, "You will all fall away because of Me this night, for it is written, 'I WILL STRIKE DOWN THE SHEPHERD, AND THE SHEEP OF THE FLOCK SHALL BE SCATTERED.' 32 "But after I have been raised, I will go ahead of you to Galilee." 33 But Peter said to Him, "Even though all may fall away because of You, I will never fall away." Obviously, this was not a loss of salvation. For a righteous man may fall seven times AND rise again, But the wicked shall FALL by calamity. (Proverbs 24:16)

Hebrews 6:7,8 - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this agricultural metaphor, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. When we recall the other metaphors in Scripture where good fruit is a sign of true spiritual life and fruitfulness is a sign of false believers (for example - Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35), we already have an indication that the author is speaking of people whose most trustworthy evidence of their spiritual condition (the fruit they bear) is negative, suggesting that the author is talking about people who are not genuine Christians.

Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (calls them BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and permanently falling away do not accompany salvation.

It is generally stated by those who believe salvation can be lost that you can get it back again. If the writer of Hebrews was truly teaching that a really "saved," person really "lost their salvation" then why didn't he simply say, "For it is impossible for those who were once born again or saved, if they fall away, to renew them again to salvation? Why is it that we never find the words "lost or lose your salvation" in the Bible? *That would certainly settle the issue.

FranC · Feb 14, 2017

dcontroversal said:

I'll bet you read a lot of commentaries that agree with you!

YOU are regurgitating Calvinism. An idea that came about 1,500 after Christianity got started.
Amazing no one else ever thought up all this stuff that Mr. Calvin did.

I certainly hope that those reading along read the commentaries.
There's a lot said in this regard. (Jesus being faithful even though we're not)
Jesus will ALWAYS be faithful to HIS word. He came to save and save He will.
But if we want to be part of HIS faithfulness to His mission,which is to save, then
YES, we must have the faith spoken of in
Ephesians 2:8

HAVE FAITH................BE SAVED
NO FAITH................... NO SALVATION

It's as easy as that.

Fran

Eternal Security You CANNOT lose your salvation! by David J. Stewart | January 2004

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