Free from sin

[peacefulbeliever]

1Joh 2:1 must be a reference to sins of ignorance (sin not unto death) for if it was a reference to willful rebellion then John is making a case for easy forgiveness.

In Hebrews it speaks of no sacrifice remaining for willful sin after a true cleansing. The cleansing in Heb 10:22 is obviously the same cleansing alluded to by John in 1Joh 1:7 and 9.

We have an advocate for sins of ignorance (1Joh 2:1) but willful sin requires godly sorrow working a repentance unto salvation (unto a true once and for all cleansing).

To imply otherwise is to argue in favour of a sin/repent/sin/repent/sin/repent (dirty/wash/clean over and over) cycle which is obviously at odds with any notion of a pure heart without guile.

This is one error I think many of the "stop sinning" street preachers do not perceive.

1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins . . . does not specify "ignorant sin" nor "sins unto death". You are reading into it . . And what in the world is an "ignorant sin" (although I agree that sin is ignorant!) Most Christians KNOW what is sin and what is not sin - how can sin be done in ignorance?

Again 1 John 2:1 - But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins . . . . I don't see any type of sins specified?

 

[Jason0047]

That is you saying, "if it is all us, and none of Christ."

I never said anything remotely close to that. You are just like many others who respond with rhetoric and ignore the substance Jason.

The purpose that Jesus went to the cross was to...

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

1. Redeem us from all iniquity.
2. Purify us that we be zealous of righteousness.

Thus we are "made the righteousness of God in Him"...

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

...via working together with God whereby we WALK according to the Spirit...

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

In light of the above, which I have stated many times, how can you possibly conclude I am saying, "it is all us, and none of Christ" ?????

How can you honestly conclude in your mind that I am saying, "it is all us, and none of Christ."

I think you are being dishonest to conclude that because I clearly state that God leads and we follow. I clearly state that is the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ by which we operate. There is no "all us and none of Christ" in ANYTHING I have written. Stop misrepresenting me Jason. I know others constantly misrepresent me but for you who claim to be in favour of serving righteousness? You doing it? It is surprising.


The purpose that Jesus went to the cross was this...

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
Heb 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
Heb 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

Yet you do not seem to care about what the Bible says in Hebrews. You ignore it and somehow twist my premise in your mind to be "all of us and none of Christ." You then respond to this fictional premise instead of actually addressing what I actually wrote. That does not seem like a very honest thing to do.

Where a testament is there must also be the death of the testator. Jesus gave Himself as a sin offering for the redemption of transgressions which were under the Old Testament by instituting the New Covenant. The blood of Christ is sprinkled on the offering cleansing it once and for all. We present ourselves to God upon the Mercy Seat and the blood of Christ is sprinkled upon us cleansing us of our past transgressions once and for all.

The sin offering of Jesus Christ has NOTHING to do with a substitution of any sort. Not a single supporter of the various substitutional views can provide any Biblical texts which substantiate anything close to any "sin debt being paid" or Jesus "swapping places with the sinner." People merely grab hold of isolated verses and heap rhetoric upon them. They ignore the Book of Hebrews which clearly refutes any notion of substitution.

You didn't get your substitutional view from the Bible Jason, you were taught it by men. You ought to dig into the history of it and let the chips fall where they may. If substitution is truth then scripture will not contradict it.

Because Jesus does not get the glory when you ignore the Substitionary Atonement. Man gets the glory instead. Only when we yield to the work Christ or God does within us (Whereby we conform to the image of Christ and His sacrifice) does the Substitionary Atonement continue to pour forth within our lives. No conforming to the Son's image and then there is no Substitionary Atonement. One has to walk as he walked. Not by our own power, but by Him working in us.

Christ died for MY sins. That is a substitution. An exchange. He was holy and did not deserve to be punished and so He died in my place and paid the penalty for sin (Which was death). This is basic gospel. For if there was no exchange that took place, then I would still be in my sins. Christ died for ME. He died so as to save me (When I deserved to die instead). Just as a man would be willing to sacrifice his own life so as to save one of this friends by pushing him out of the way of a moving truck so as to save him (at the cost of his own life). It is an exchange. A life for a life.

 

[dcontroversal]

So the guys who were living according to the Word and living righteously are going to suffer versus say the ones who treat sin as if it was no big deal? Something doesn't seem right with such a picture.

That's not what I said and or implied.....maybe one of these days you will figure out how to read English and get what someone actually states right!

 

[Skinski7]

Because Jesus does not get the glory when you ignore the Substitionary Atonement.

Substitutionary atonement is not in the Bible Jason. You respond to my posts with pure unsubstantiated rhetoric.

Jesus does not get the glory when one ignores that which the Bible does not teach?

Says who? You?

You assertion is without any foundation whatsoever.

Man gets the glory instead. Only when we yield to the work Christ or God does within us (Whereby we conform to the image of Christ and His sacrifice) does the Substitionary Atonement continue to pour forth within our lives. No conforming to the Son's image and then there is no Substitionary Atonement. One has to walk as he walked. Not by our own power, but by Him working in us.

There is no substitutionary atonement in the Bible. You are mixing it in with all the other stuff.

Yes we yield to the work of God within us, yes we conform ourselves to the image of Christ, yes we have to walk as He walked, yes we walk by the power of God but there is no "substitutionary atonement being poured forth."

You assert something as being true and yet you cannot substantiate it with anything except your own assertions. Why is that?

Substitutional atonement is not biblical. Jesus did not swap places with you, Jesus did not serve to substitute Himself in your place. Jesus died on your behalf as an EXAMPLE for you to FOLLOW.

An example is not a substitution.

Christ died for MY sins. That is a substitution.

Is it? Is it really?

An exchange. He was holy and did not deserve to be punished and so He died in my place and paid the penalty for sin (Which was death).

Physical death is a result of Adam being expelled from the garden.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

What would have occurred if God did not expel the man from the garden? What would have occurred if the man had of put forth his hand and taken of the tree of life? Would the man have physically died?

No.

Jesus died a physical death on the cross. A physical death is not the penalty for sin. Physical death is a consequence of Adams sin in the context of the expulsion from the garden but it is not the penalty.

Jesus did not pay the penalty for sin which is eternal damnation, destruction in the Lake of Fire. The penalty due has not been paid for by anyone.

Jesus did not die in your place, Jesus died on your behalf as an example. You ignore that fact even though the Bible specifically states it.

Look at your response, it has ZERO scripture. Yet I can quote...

1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Is that substitution? Is Jesus bearing our sins on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness, a substitution?

No it isn't. Peter says EXAMPLE. Peter does not say substitution.

A substitute is not an example. If you substitute something for something else then it is a replacement for it, not an example. The death of Jesus is not a replacement for your death, YOU HAVE TO DIE TOO.

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

That is the cross. We die WITH Christ.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Being set free from sin has nothing to do with a substitution. It has to do with following the EXAMPLE of Jesus.

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

He that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin.

Right before that Peter wrote...

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Compare to...

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Compare to...

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

See the pattern?

Jesus also died so as to...

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

...which is the same as...

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

Where is this substitution you speak of found in the Bible Jason?

Where is it? Where is it taught?

Who teaches it? Which book? Which author? Where is it Jason?

This is basic gospel.

If this substitution is the basic Gospel then why isn't it taught anywhere in the Gospels?

Why didn't Jesus teach it anywhere?

Why did not the founder of Christianity teach this thing that you believe in Jason? Why didn't Jesus teach this thing, that you claim if one ignores they are taking the glory away from Jesus?

This ought to be problematic for you, someone who claims to believe the Bible and yet is upholding something alien and contradictory to the Bible.

For if there was no exchange that took place, then I would still be in my sins.

What exchange? Where is this exchange taught?

I know the Reformers teach this magical exchange. They teach that Jesus aborbed the wrath of God on behalf of the elect making it not due anymore, thus they can sin and not surely die. Not only that, they also teach that the obedience of Jesus is credited to the account of the elect, thus when God looks at the wretched filthy wicked sinner (who believes in Jesus) God somehow sees Jesus instead. This is the doctrine your are trying to uphold Jason. I don't think you understand its implications.

Christ died for ME.

Yes He did jason. He died for all people including you, but not as your substitute. He died as your example and also as a sin offering offered to God on your behalf. Jesus died FOR you, not INSTEAD of you. You still have to die too just like Jesus taught.

We are to be crucified WITH Christ that it we no longer live but Christ lives in us. In other words we die to the lusts of the flesh and self service and live the rest of our lives through the Spirit of His life working in us whereby we walk as He walked, in righteousness. EXAMPLE not substitution. FOLLOWING not substitution.

He died so as to save me (When I deserved to die instead). Just as a man would be willing to sacrifice his own life so as to save one of this friends by pushing him out of the way of a moving truck so as to save him (at the cost of his own life). It is an exchange. A life for a life.

What about you having to die Jason? Have you forgotten that?

Jesus said for you to count the cost.

Luk 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?

Jesus said YOU have to die Jason...

Mar 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Mar 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

The cross is an instrument of death. Jesus did not die so you do not have to. Jesus died that you would die too.

We are to strive against sin through sharing in the sufferings of Christ...

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Heb 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

It is through the power of the grace of God that we can overcome this world and the lusts thereof. Jesus was tempted in all points as we are and yet without sin, He demonstrated to us that is is possible to walk in purity via the same means that He did so and this is by the Spirit of God.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.


Substitution is the absolute antithesis of the notion that we have to die also. Look at what the modern church generally teaches and what they don't teach.

They don't teach the crucifixion of the flesh with its passions and desires. They don't teach that because they view reconciliation being premised on SUBSTITUTION instead of EXAMPLE. Thus they think Jesus did it all for them and that all they have to do is TRUST in the provisional substitution which serves to cloak ongoing wickedness.

Do not be deceived by these people Jason. Believe the Bible, not the dogma of men.

 

[Skinski7]

Jesus also died so as to serve as a demonstration to the world of the resurrection of the dead. Thus we have something tangible to hope for.

 

[CRC]

It certainly was true that all who made up the first-century Christian congregation were saints. (1 Cor. 14:33, 34; 2 Cor. 1:1; 13:13, RS, KJ) They are described as ones that received “forgiveness of sins” and were “sanctified” by God. (Acts 26:18; 1 Cor. 1:2, RS, KJ) Nevertheless, they did not claim to be free from all sin. They were born as descendants of the sinner Adam. This inheritance often made it a struggle for them to do what was right, as the apostle Paul humbly acknowledged. (Rom. 7:21-25) And the apostle John pointedly said: “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8, RS) So, being a saint in the sense that the term is used regarding Christ’s true followers does not mean that in the flesh they are free from all sin.

 

[Skinski7]

1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins . . . does not specify "ignorant sin" nor "sins unto death". You are reading into it . . And what in the world is an "ignorant sin" (although I agree that sin is ignorant!) Most Christians KNOW what is sin and what is not sin - how can sin be done in ignorance?

Again 1 John 2:1 - But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins . . . . I don't see any type of sins specified?

1 Joh 1:9 is not an isolated proof text. It is one sentence in an entire letter, a letter which says things like...

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

The people who use 1Joh 8-9 as a proof text of ongoing wickedness in a Christian are in denial that whosoever is born of God sins not.

1Joh 5:18 is presented in the context of...

1Jn 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
1Jn 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

Clearly John recognises two very different kinds of sin.

John recognises a sin unto death and a sin not unto death.

Paul also noted that...

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Paul recognised that "sin unto death" is the opposite of "obedience unto righteousness."

Clearly the "sin unto death" Paul is speaking of is "obedience unto unrighteousness" or simply "willful wrong doing" because it involves YIELDING.

We are slaves to whom we obey.

The children of God are MANIFEST in that they DO righteousness.

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

The children of the devil, on the other hand, DOETH NOT righteousness.

Paul wrote that it is OBEDIENCE UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS.

It is pretty simple stuff.

There is no way that John would be saying that we have an ongoing advocate for willful sin when the Bible clearly states that there is no remaining sacrifice for willful sin. John is not going to contradict the Book of Hebrews nor is he going to contradict what he wrote in chapters 3 and 5 of his first epistle.

People like you EXCLUSIVELY pull 1Joh 1:8-10 out of its context and IGNORE the other things John wrote in order to defend this notion of ongoing wickedness in a Christian.

Tell me, who would argue in favour of wickedness? Satan or God?

Even in the Old Testament a distinction is made between willful sin and sins of ignorance...

Num 15:29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.
Num 15:30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Num 15:31 Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.
Num 15:32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
Num 15:33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
Num 15:34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
Num 15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
Num 15:36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

Which is why...

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Most professing Christians don't really believe what the Bible teaches.

The Bible teaches that if we sin willfully after having been sanctified by the blood (Heb 10:29) and having come to a knowledge of the truth (Heb 10:26) then no sacrifice remains. If such is the truth then how could John teach the opposite that a sacrifice does in fact remain for willful sin and that Jesus serves as an advocate in such a circumstance?

I have NEVER seen any modern theologian answer that question. They can't answer it because it proves their theology in error.

The death of Christ is meant to effect a once and for all cleansing where the root of iniquity (by which we would engage in rebellion to God) have been purged. Hence Paul saying that...

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Pure is really pure. Salvation is really salvation. Redeemed from ALL iniquity means redeemed from ALL iniquity.

Yet few people believe it. Most people hate that message and want instead some kind of cloak for ongoing wickedness and thus they buy into a religion which serves to tickle their ears.

 

[Skinski7]

It certainly was true that all who made up the first-century Christian congregation were saints. (1 Cor. 14:33, 34; 2 Cor. 1:1; 13:13, RS, KJ) They are described as ones that received “forgiveness of sins” and were “sanctified” by God. (Acts 26:18; 1 Cor. 1:2, RS, KJ) Nevertheless, they did not claim to be free from all sin. They were born as descendants of the sinner Adam. This inheritance often made it a struggle for them to do what was right, as the apostle Paul humbly acknowledged. (Rom. 7:21-25) And the apostle John pointedly said: “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8, RS) So, being a saint in the sense that the term is used regarding Christ’s true followers does not mean that in the flesh they are free from all sin.

Like so many you implore 1Joh 1:8 as a defense for perpetual wickedness in yourself.

Jesus taught...

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Free indeed from what?

Jesus says, "free indeed" yet you say "true followers does not mean that in the flesh they are free."

Paul says...

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

You say, "Christ’s true followers does not mean that in the flesh they are free from all sin."


You think the flesh itself necessitates sinning? You think the flesh itself is evil? Is that your excuse for sinning against God and your denial of the very words of Jesus?

Jesus didn't say "free indeed, but not really cos of the flesh." Jesus said FREE INDEED and the context of that statement was in regards to SERVING SIN. Paul taught the same thing in Romans 6.

Romans 7 is a description of a man convicted under the law and cannot find the means to do what is right via adherence to the law. It is not the description of the follower of Jesus who has been set FREE INDEED.

Take pause and think about it for a moment. Do you really think that the salvation that God offers is going to leave you as a wretched man who is carnal and sold under sin? Is that really what the Creator God of the universe offers? Some kind of cloak for an ongoing filthy state? It is pretty silly if you think about it.

Paul wrote...

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

No condemnation upon who?

Those who WALK after the Spirit in whom the righteousness of the law is fulfilled. Does that sound like wretched people who are carnal and sold under sin?

What sets us free from the law of sin and death is the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ. It is a manifest reality, an abiding state.

Look at how Peter described it...

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Peter connects the new birth to loving with a pure heart fervently for we are born again of the incorruptible seed of the word of God.

James described it thus...

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

What saves the soul? THE ENGRAFTED WORD.

Notice how James connects "laying aside all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness" to "receiving the implanted word."

One cannot receive the implanted word without forsaking evil. God and Satan cannot abide together. The Holy Spirit will not indwell a filthy vessel hence the necessity of repentance in order to purge the root of rebellion within the sinner. We come out of repentance in a broken state submitted to God whereby the power of God raises us to newness of life, a life of abiding in the Spirit of His life. It is in this state we must endure to the end as we grow to maturity.

You'll never here this kind of stuff in your average church because they don't believe it. Instead they teach that people have to trust in a provisional legal transaction effected at the cross. It is all a hoax designed to damn people.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

1 Joh 1:9 is not an isolated proof text. It is one sentence in an entire letter, a letter which says things like...

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

The people who use 1Joh 8-9 as a proof text of ongoing wickedness in a Christian are in denial that whosoever is born of God sins not.

1Joh 5:18 is presented in the context of...

1Jn 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
1Jn 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

Clearly John recognises two very different kinds of sin.

John recognises a sin unto death and a sin not unto death.

I used the 1 John 1:9 and 1 John 2:1 in response to your statement concerning 1 John 1:9 and 1 John 2:1. ALL sin is forgiven except blasphemy of the holy Spirit. Blasphemy of the holy Spirit is the sin unto death.

Paul also noted that...

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Paul recognised that "sin unto death" is the opposite of "obedience unto righteousness."

Clearly the "sin unto death" Paul is speaking of is "obedience unto unrighteousness" or simply "willful wrong doing" because it involves YIELDING.

We are slaves to whom we obey.

This is obedience unto salvation - confessing Jesus as Lord and believing God raised him from the dead - then we are saved. We have salvation (soteria) meaning we are in a state of being saved, rescued or delivered from something that threatens death or destruction, or brought to a place of safety. Logically, if we are still in danger of somehow losing this slavation, we are not in a very "safe" place. We are not able to pay any of the debt demanded for our salvation. Jesus Christ made the "payment in full" - He is the "propitiation".

The children of God are MANIFEST in that they DO righteousness.

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Once we are saved - we are born again of the Spirit - we have been adopted by God as his sons through Jesus Christ. We have the old man nature even though we are new creations on the inside. I know that you believe this to be gnostic thinking but it is throughout the NT for us to put off the old - put on the new. If the old man was automatically removed we wouldn't be told to take it off - the old man nature is the flesh, or the carnal man - the old man does not completely go away until death or until we are raised and receive our glorified bodies. That is why the flesh and the Spirit are in conflict with one another. Are we to walk by the Spirit - AMEN! Will we always walk by the Spirit? No - and that is why God made provision for us to restore fellowship in 1 John 1:9 and 1 John 2:1.
So in 1 John 1:8 scripture says: If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. then 1 John 3:9 says that whosoever is born of God does not commit sin . . . hmmmm - that sounds like a contradiction. We will not commit sin in that new creation - Sin will not and cannot touch the Spirit within us - it is incorruptible and his seed remains in us.

The children of the devil, on the other hand, DOETH NOT righteousness.

Paul wrote that it is OBEDIENCE UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS.

It is pretty simple stuff.

There is no way that John would be saying that we have an ongoing advocate for willful sin when the Bible clearly states that there is no remaining sacrifice for willful sin. John is not going to contradict the Book of Hebrews nor is he going to contradict what he wrote in chapters 3 and 5 of his first epistle.

People like you EXCLUSIVELY pull 1Joh 1:8-10 out of its context and IGNORE the other things John wrote in order to defend this notion of ongoing wickedness in a Christian.

Tell me, who would argue in favour of wickedness? Satan or God?

As I said before I didn't pull out exclusively 1 John 1:8-10 - I responded to YOUR post which pointed to 1 John 1:8-10.
BTW . . . people aren't animals - they can only be born of ONE Father.

Even in the Old Testament a distinction is made between willful sin and sins of ignorance...

Num 15:29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.
Num 15:30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Num 15:31 Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.
Num 15:32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
Num 15:33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
Num 15:34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
Num 15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
Num 15:36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

OT whole different dispensation . . . whole different administration - they could not be born again of the Spirit and they COULD lose salvation -

Which is why...

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Most professing Christians don't really believe what the Bible teaches.

The Bible teaches that if we sin willfully after having been sanctified by the blood (Heb 10:29) and having come to a knowledge of the truth (Heb 10:26) then no sacrifice remains. If such is the truth then how could John teach the opposite that a sacrifice does in fact remain for willful sin and that Jesus serves as an advocate in such a circumstance?

I have NEVER seen any modern theologian answer that question. They can't answer it because it proves their theology in error.

The death of Christ is meant to effect a once and for all cleansing where the root of iniquity (by which we would engage in rebellion to God) have been purged. Hence Paul saying that...

I believe the Bible - I know that if in one place it says that our works will be burned - if none remain we will suffer loss but still be saved then that scripture cannot be contradicted. (1 Cor. 3) Salvation is permanent - it is by birth. If we sin, of course there is no more sacrifice for sin . . . Jesus Christ died for sins once and for all . . . Now we have him as our advocate - our defense attorney . . .

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Pure is really pure. Salvation is really salvation. Redeemed from ALL iniquity means redeemed from ALL iniquity.

Yet few people believe it. Most people hate that message and want instead some kind of cloak for ongoing wickedness and thus they buy into a religion which serves to tickle their ears.

The work that Jesus Christ did . . . The new creation inside us . . . the adoption by our heavenly Father . . . being sealed by the holy Spirit until the day of redemption . . . THAT IS OUR SALVATION and it is THROUGH FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST. Our walk is totally separate from our salvation and that is what most people miss.

BTW - If your post is this long next time I will have to break it up - they are entirely too long.

 

[notuptome]

Proverbs 26:12 Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? There is more hope of a fool than of him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Deadtosin]

The wages of sin is death (abiding in sin reaps death) and the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ (abiding in Jesus reaps life).

The Bible says no where that Jesus paid your debt.

If Jesus somehow paid your debt then it cannot be due anymore. Did Jesus pay everyone's debt whereby none will be lost? Did Jesus pay the debt of only some people leaving those for whom it is unpaid without hope?

Not only is the notion of "Jesus paid my debt" alien to the Bible, it promotes further error.

Skinski, if Jesus didn't pay for my past sins then I am doomed for what I've already done. God is a righteous judge and thats why He sent Jesus Christ -Whom God set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

I do not believe that we should live in sin, I actually preach the opposite. Through Christ we become new creatures. I can't help but feel that your words are bitter. Maybe you've been battling on CC for countless battles. I have no idea, but Jesus blood is precious and if it weren't for His blood there would be no hope for any of us.

 

[Blain]

I just want to point out that Paul himself had a thorn in his side and asked God three times to remove it from him but God said in reply my grace is enough. so by the sinless group standards paul was not saved

 

[know1]

Mat 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
Mat 18:24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
Mat 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
Mat 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
Mat 18:28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
Mat 18:29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
Mat 18:31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
Mat 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Mat 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

A debt forgiven is not a debt paid for.

It is clear in the parable that the huge debt forgiven was symbolizing the sins of the person that God forgave, when they believed and received Christ as their personal savior.
Even as God forgave us our sins, so He forgave the man his debt.
A debt forgiven is as good as a debt paid.
The parable is talking about a God sending an evil spirit to tormented or tortured the child of God that fails to forgive their fellow brothers. Christ likens it to debt collecting.

 

[know1]

Sounds like you have a pretty good grasp of why they cannot hear, as I also understand this as well. And I often asked myself why bother. But the Lord gave me the answer here ....

Ezekiel 2:6-7 "And thou, son of man, be not afraid of them, neither be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns be with thee, and thou dost dwell among scorpions: be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house.[SUP]7 [/SUP]And thou shalt speak my words unto them, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear: for they are most rebellious."

Sometimes the Lords testimony is not just to edify a few for building up, but it also serves as witness against, and a warning and to the tearing down of the strong holds of the Devil. The Lord said to Ezekiel here....

You are correct sir, and thank you for that word.
But what do you think will happen to those who taint the word of God or teach contrary to the truth?

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I question the fate of many on this forum.
Many think they are saved and are not. Many think their salvation is secure, and they can do anything they want and still go to heaven, but will not be allowed in. I still pray for myself. It's too easy to fall away from God or the truth, seeing we are born again by the word of God, which is the truth. For it is written, "Thy word is truth"
Many are saying, "that faith stuff doesn't work" or " the word of faith" doctrine is of the devil. I'd like to know how they got saved in the first place, if words of faith didn't come from their heart out their mouths.
An example of another gospel that most on this forum believe is that Christ did not bare their infirmities/sicknesses and carried their sicknesses/diseases. That healing was not part of the new covenant wrought by the atoning blood of Jesus for every child of God. To them, healing comes only "if it's God's will."
I don't know if things like this will matter or not.
I think it will come down to it being a matter of the condition of the heart.

 

[Jason0047]

That's not what I said and or implied.....maybe one of these days you will figure out how to read English and get what someone actually states right!

You believe in "Positional Righteousness" whereby it allows for a person to abide in some kind of sin while being saved. This is a license for immorality which is way different than what the Bible actually teaches. For you cannot be forgiven unless you forgive (Matthew 6:15). That's a condtion set forth by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. Paul says if any teaches contrary to the words of Jesus and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). I have heard OSAS proponents use every excuse in the book on Matthew 6:15. Some agree that you have to obey it and others don't. But if you are for "Positional Righteousness" then Matthew 6:15 does not apply. Only chastening is what you have to fear. So there is no real fear of God, though. No real incentive to do what is right. For Jesus said fear him who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire) (Matthew 10:28).

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

I just want to point out that Paul himself had a thorn in his side and asked God three times to remove it from him but God said in reply my grace is enough. so by the sinless group standards paul was not saved

I've heard people misrepresent Paul's infirmity in his flesh as a sin, or some even try to say Paul had a devil which is ridiculous. But what Paul was saying he was given a physical infirmity in his body much like Satan had physically afflicted Job. Paul even gives the reason why this was allowed as it was meant to keep Paul humble. I personally believe it had something to with his eyes.

Listen to what Paul says about his infirmity...

2 Corinthians 12:7-9[SUP]7 [/SUP]And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me."

Paul would not glory is sin, so that idea of it being sin is in error. And then notice what Paul says here...

Galatians 4:13-15
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me."

So Paul was not talking about living in sin, he was talking about a physical bodily infirmity in his flesh.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

You believe in "Positional Righteousness" whereby it allows for a person to abide in some kind of sin while being saved. This is a license for immorality which is way different than what the Bible actually teaches. For you cannot be forgiven unless you forgive (Matthew 6:15). That's a condtion set forth by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. Paul says if any teaches contrary to the words of Jesus and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). I have heard OSAS proponents use every excuse in the book on Matthew 6:15. Some agree that you have to obey it and others don't. But if you are for "Positional Righteousness" then Matthew 6:15 does not apply. Only chastening is what you have to fear. So there is no real fear of God, though. No real incentive to do what is right. For Jesus said fear him who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire) (Matthew 10:28).

Belief in what you call "Positional Righteousness" does not ALLOW for a person to ABIDE in sin. We just admit that we still deal with our old nature - that old nature is against our new nature - they are contrary to each other and sometimes we will not always do what we want (desire) to do. Our position within the household, the family of God, the body of Christ is secure - our walk will fluctuate because of our old man nature and the old man nature. We admit that God knows this and that is why we have an advocate (defense attorney) who stands in the presence of throne of God in our defense. What this has to do with Matt. 6:15 - I have no idea. We do forgive others . . .

I have used the pronoun "we" although I do not mean to speak for anyone else.

 

[Jason0047]

Belief in what you call "Positional Righteousness" does not ALLOW for a person to ABIDE in sin. We just admit that we still deal with our old nature - that old nature is against our new nature - they are contrary to each other and sometimes we will not always do what we want (desire) to do. Our position within the household, the family of God, the body of Christ is secure - our walk will fluctuate because of our old man nature and the old man nature. We admit that God knows this and that is why we have an advocate (defense attorney) who stands in the presence of throne of God in our defense. What this has to do with Matt. 6:15 - I have no idea. We do forgive others . . .

I have used the pronoun "we" although I do not mean to speak for anyone else.

I am sorry. The cat is already out of the bag. Unless you changed your belief recently, you voted in my poll that you can abide in unrepentant sin (like lying, lusting, hating, etc.) and then die and still be saved. You also voted in my other poll that you can be out fellowship with God (no doubt because of sin) and still be saved.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Belief in what you call "Positional Righteousness" does not ALLOW for a person to ABIDE in sin. We just admit that we still deal with our old nature - that old nature is against our new nature - they are contrary to each other and sometimes we will not always do what we want (desire) to do. Our position within the household, the family of God, the body of Christ is secure - our walk will fluctuate because of our old man nature and the old man nature. We admit that God knows this and that is why we have an advocate (defense attorney) who stands in the presence of throne of God in our defense. What this has to do with Matt. 6:15 - I have no idea. We do forgive others . . .

I have used the pronoun "we" although I do not mean to speak for anyone else.

What you are speaking of is serving 2 masters, this is also known as being a double minded man who is unstable in all his ways.
That is why we are told to put to death the deeds of the flesh by the Spirit of God. Death meaning that old man of sin nature should be dead in you.

Romans 6:3-7 "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?[SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.[SUP]5 [/SUP]For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:[SUP]6 [/SUP]Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.[SUP]7 [/SUP]For he that is dead is freed from sin.”

To truly be "in Christ" old things are passed away=dead

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

I am sorry. The cat is already out of the bag. Unless you changed your belief recently, you voted in my poll that you can abide in unrepentant sin (like lying, lusting, hating, etc.) and then die and still be saved. You also voted in my other poll that you can be out fellowship with God (no doubt because of sin) and still be saved.

And I haven't changed my mind and my post reflected that -

"Belief in what you call "Positional Righteousness" does not ALLOW for a person to ABIDE in sin. We just admit that we still deal with our old nature - that old nature is against our new nature - they are contrary to each other and sometimes we will not always do what we want (desire) to do. Our position within the household, the family of God, the body of Christ is secure - our walk will fluctuate because of our old man nature and the old man nature. We admit that God knows this and that is why we have an advocate (defense attorney) who stands in the presence of throne of God in our defense. What this has to do with Matt. 6:15 - I have no idea. We do forgive others . . .

I have used the pronoun "we" although I do not mean to speak for anyone else."

Do I believe that if I tell my granddaughter that a picture she colored was pretty (although it's not), I will still be saved? Do I believe that if I answer the phone at work, and my boss has told me to tell them he is not in (although he is), I will still be saved? Do I believe that if my husband asked me upon waking "Ain't I good lookin" - I say yes honey (although neither one of us look that great first thing in the mornings), I will still be saved? In all situations - Yes, I will still be saved even though I have lied. My salvation is NOT dependent on my "behavior", i.e. walk - my salvation is dependent upon whom I have placed my trust in.

But in my "walk", if/when I sin - there is a break in my relationship with the Father and the Son - so I will need to restore that fellowship and that is why I ask forgiveness to repair that broken fellowship and my advocate, Jesus Christ stands before my Father as my defense counsel - I am then cleansed and restored in my fellowship with the Father and the Son.