God of the Paradox

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TheAristocat

Senior Member
Oct 4, 2011
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#61
This video is making the rounds on many Christian forums of late as it proposes a quandary as to the Omni-powers of God and the part humans play in the faith paradigm.

[video=youtube;xJ7cqE6Om9M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJ7cqE6Om9M[/video]

Admittedly the audio is a bit much to take. That is the edited version I sought out as the longer near 11 minute one is the one making the rounds.

How do we respond to those points? The paradigm an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, God set forth being he has foreknowledge, has predestined the world and our lives before the foundation of the world, and all per scripture. How Satan cannot act without God's permission, and how Jesus, knowing his destiny was to die for the worlds sins, could not have then made what would be defined as a sacrifice of himself.

All gleaned from the video but if you can make it through see what you think.

I'll admit this atheist production, yes, I know, "well they're atheists. There's your answer right there!" , but it isn't that simple. This rationalizes the Biblical points to arrive at what for me is a real curiosity about faith and reason.

Thank you for your patience if you do watch this. And sincere heart felt educated replies are requested. This is not meant to hurt anyone's feelings. It is posted to help me overcome my own confusion being a new seeker of the Way.

Thank you for reading.
Point by point:

1. What reason would the devil have to oppose God?
A. None. Who said the devil was omniscient? We know so little about him it could very well be he was very optimistic about his whole situation upon seeing his own glory.

2. God can't be omnibenevolent and omnipotent if evil appears in the world.
A. You know, most people would consider creating us with free will to be a good thing. Or perhaps they would rather be automatons? But God wants those who will worship him in spirit and in truth. In order to have this free will has to be thrown into the mix. But can't God create beings with free will, who earnestly seek after God all of the time and who only make the right decisions? That isn't free will. And it's forced worship by automatons. Again, can God create beings with free will and who only make decisions that conform to God's will? Why don't they just cut to the chase and ask, "So... can God create beings with free will who don't have free will?" It's a paradox, because their questions are set up to read that way. The flaw is in the logic of their questions. It's like asking the question, "Can God create a rock so heavy even he can't lift it?" And that's akin to asking, "Can God be so omnipotent that he can't be omnipotent?" And if the Christian answers, "No," then the atheist claims, "Well, then God isn't omnipotent!" See something wrong with that logic? The question is rigged.

3. God wants to remain hidden.
A. The position the Bible takes on this issue seems to be that God desires those who will seek him out. And when he has the power of life and death and seeing how every human being knows they will die one day unless they do something other than live for this life, it becomes a no-brainer to use this life to seek out a higher being who has made us, given us life and can therefore give us life again after we die. Otherwise we live for a little while and then we die. Not a very bright plan, is it?

4. God is not bound to causality.
A. Any way you slice it, there is going to be a point in time where we have to acknowledge a first cause that does not interact within traditional notions of cause and effect.

It's hard to keep track of the number of straw men this video builds. It sets up questions with paradoxes in logic whose paths all lead to the same conclusion that they want you to arrive at. Then it takes English terms such as omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence and causality and attempts to tack them onto the Bible and claim that Judeo-Christianity is ridiculous because we cannot explain God within these English terms. Have you ever found one of these English terms in the Bible? Then it makes up the new word, "omnibenevolence," whose meaning isn't entirely clear.

In the very end it claims that the supernatural is both un-falsifiable and unacceptable. How can it be unacceptable if it's un-falsifiable? Have they already falsified it?
 
Sep 14, 2014
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#62
Because the Supernatural thing is usually a conversation killer. Like when discussing Noah's Ark for example, Ive had long discussions about the types of animals, how the boat was built etc, then all of a sudden when a question can't be answered the line "But god can do anything!" Rears its head.

Its unacceptable as a copout when having a discussion. Its like the ace up the sleeve, or a get out of jail free card. Its unacceptable because its turns a rational discussion into an irrational one.
 
O

oldthennew

Guest
#65
So what did eve learn? What chance did she have not to do it again? How did she become better from this experience?
==================================
MATT. 10:16.
Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves:
be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
 
V

Viligant_Warrior

Guest
#67
'I don't know' is a better answer than 'God can do anything'
Actually, the two should be combined: "I don't know, but God can do anything."

The reason being ...
Isaiah 55, NASB
6 Seek the LORD while He may be found;
Call upon Him while He is near.
7 Let the wicked forsake his way
And the unrighteous man his thoughts;
And let him return to the LORD,
And He will have compassion on him,
And to our God,
For He will abundantly pardon.
8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD.
9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways
And My thoughts than your thoughts.
10 "For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven,
And do not return there without * watering the earth
And making it bear and sprout,
And furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater;
11 So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth;
It will not return to Me empty,
Without * accomplishing what I desire,
And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it. [Emphasis added]

We are not meant to understand everything about God. It would be too wonderful and terrifying for us to have that knowledge. As when we were small children and did not understand all our parents told us, but obeyed because of who they were, so we love and obey God -- the obedience coming as a result of the love.
 

TheAristocat

Senior Member
Oct 4, 2011
2,150
26
0
#68
'I don't know' is a better answer than 'God can do anything'
Mm. I tend to agree. Why is God supposed to fit a person's whimsical argument in the heat of a debate? It's much more likely that they don't have an adequate answer and should never have responded to begin with.

Regardless, this video seems more about how not to debate rather than a God of the Paradox.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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#71
Q: What reason would the devil have to oppose God if he knows He is all powerful and He has no hope of defeating Him?

A: There are battles in history where men have fought knowing they had no chance of winning the battle. I imagine the devil is taking pleasure in taking countless souls to Hell with him (despite his eventual defeat). 2 people die approximately every second. That is 85 million people a year who die. According to the devil, this would be millions of victories a year (and or souls in whom he has deceived).

Q: How can God be Omnibenevolent and Omnipotent if evil appears in the world?

A: Well, for one, Omnipotence is the attribute that says God is all powerful. God not excercising His all powerful abilities in every given situation that we deem is good and necessary does not equate with God not being all powerful. Omnibenevolence is the attribute that God is always loving and good. Yes, God desires to have "true love" with all of mankind. "True love" cannot exist unless "free will" exists, otherwise all of mankind would be forced to love God. Therefore, seeing "free will" exists, God has to let man choose his own way (Which has led to all kinds of evils). Man choosing evil is not God's fault. Man is responsible for all the sin he has done against God. God is allowing the evil to exist in this world, so that more and more people will repent of their sins and be saved into His Kingdom before the Lord returns. We also have to realize that all things work together for good to those who love God, too. For example: Joseph's brothers intended evil against Joseph, but God turned their evil around and used it for good instead. This shows that God is Omnipotent and Omnibenevolent despite man choosing to do evil things. Have no idea what I am talking about? Read the real life story of Joseph in the book of Genesis.

Q: Why does God remain hidden?

A: God wants people who are of a pure heart and who will truly want to be with Him. God also takes pleasure by us trusting in Him and His promises. As a matter of fact, the Lord wants us to be justified by the promise of having faith in His Holy Word. For faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen. For God wants us to receive the free gift of God thru faith so as to be saved. Saved from our selves and sin so as to know what "true love" is all about (And that is in having a relatinship with God). A relationship that is sight unseen in most cases, but very real on a personal level. For God talks to His people who are faithful to Him. In my case: God has used His Word, people, books, life situations, etc. so as to communicate to me.

Q: Is it not a problem that God Himself is not bound by Causality?

A: No, God is Spirit and He is not bound by natural laws that He created for mankind and His creation. God is also eternal and does not have a beginning. He is forever existing. I mean, what caused the universe to come into existence if it was not God? Whatever you want to call it by whatever naturalistic means is going to have to be eternal, too. For something cannot come out nothing, right? So whatever thing you propose started the universe as the Cause also cannot be bound by Causality, either. For it (The Cause) had to forever exist in order to bring all things we see in the universe now (Which is the Effect).

Q: Is it a cop out to say that "God can do anything" when one does not know the answer?

A: It depends on the question. For example: There is no naturalistic explanation of trying to explain the miracle of Jesus turning water into wine. It is a miracle. For when we talk about God, He can operate outside the natural laws of this physical universe. For He created them. So in this case the answer would be a... "No." However, if it is a naturalistic question that doesn't involve a miracle or an act of God and someone says, "God can do anything" then I would say ... "Yes." However, just because there is no present answer given by someone, does not equate with the fact that there is no answer.
 
Sep 14, 2014
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#73
Because, you know, it would be interesting to hear your take on what you quoted and how it links in with the question. I thought it was a discussion forum, not a copy and paste forum.
 
Aug 15, 2009
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#74
[video=youtube;xJ7cqE6Om9M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJ7cqE6Om9M[/video]
What I noticed these atheists doing is blaming God for everything, including sin. If 'God doesn't exist', then He legitimately can't be blamed, right? The irony is they blame God "who doesn't exist" for their problems. Now making a video of that would make more sense, lol!
 
Sep 14, 2014
966
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#75
What I noticed these atheists doing is blaming God for everything, including sin. If 'God doesn't exist', then He legitimately can't be blamed, right? The irony is they blame God "who doesn't exist" for their problems. Now making a video of that would make more sense, lol!
No one is blaming god for the problems.
This video is more of a "if god is real, then how come..." Approach. God is not blamed for anything in this video. Maybe you should watch it again.
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
#76
Bit if the mother knew in advance, with absolute certainty that the child would touch the stove... Is she a good mother by turning it on not doing anything to prevent it?
Freewill.God could make us all serve Him but then there is no free will.He could make the right choices for us,but again,no free will.Hes told us not to touch the stove,He's told us to touch the stove is death and He told us there is the gift of eternal life.What more can be done other then force His will on us?
 
Sep 14, 2014
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#77
Freewill.God could make us all serve Him but then there is no free will.He could make the right choices for us,but again,no free will.Hes told us not to touch the stove,He's told us to touch the stove is death and He told us there is the gift of eternal life.What more can be done other then force His will on us?
But hasn't the actions of Adam and Eve had a direct impact on people today? People who are in no way responsible but still pay the price. How does free will factor into that?
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
#78
I didn't bring up the analogy in the first place. Plus its a little different for a child to hurt itself and learn from the experience so he doesn't do it again. Plus all children who follow won't suffer because a kid touched a stove.

I don't recall eve having the same privelidge. One strike and she was out.. So to speak.

Not even a warning or anything. Instant curse for the rest of humanity.

Adam and Eve both had a warning.They were told "do not touch" once the knowledge of evil and sin were unleashed you cant put Pandora back in the box. They were given a warning and they disobeyed. We are affected by their sin but we will be punished for our own sins,not Adams sin.
 
Jan 25, 2015
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#79
I don't recall eve having the same privelidge. One strike and she was out.. So to speak.

Not even a warning or anything. Instant curse for the rest of humanity.
Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

She was warned Colin because she told the snake about it. Adam did inform her and she did twist his words because she said they couldn’t touch it, but God never said that.
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
#80
For me to love him, I have to believe he exists. Point A to point B.

I can't even move to the love position because I cant even get to the first position.

It could also be argued that my freedom of choice is being taken away from me. The lack of evidence for gods existence doesn't allow me to make a choice to love him.

Let's prove he exists first, then I can make a decision whether I want a loving relationship with him or not.

I dont know how open you truly are to finding out if God exists. There is a great book I read once that seemed to make some good points I hadn't thought of.I was having some doubts and questions and I found this book.If you aren't against giving it a look Ive posted the link. :) He gives a pretty honest look I think,more so than most apologetic books.

The New Evidence That Demands A Verdict Pdf free ebook download