Hardshell & Primitive Baptist "Conditional Time Salvation" Warning

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Jul 8, 2018
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He has not been evasive at all my friend. He has debunked your anti-means heresy thoroughly.
And I affirm that he has not debunked anything. What it all boils down to is the scriptures prove themselves if you consider all of the scriptures without ignoring any of them.
 
Oct 25, 2018
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You have a very deceitful way of turning your assertions around the opposite direction of what the truth is. If you think Acts 20:27 describes you, you are very prideful and also very wrong. I did not join myself to the Primitive baptist until after the truth was revealed to me, as I have told you before. Unlike you who sat under instructors teaching you a false doctrine and giving you false documentation to preach said false doctrine. I read where Paul sat under the top instructor of the old law, but when he was converted, he did not go immediately to the other Apostles, or some preaching school, but went off to himself and was taught by the revelation of the Holy Ghost. You and I can discuss the scriptures in a civil tone or not. Your choice.
You know, my friend, I honestly wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt, but I was wrong, horribly wrong. You and the truth are foreign to each other.
 
Oct 25, 2018
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And I affirm that he has not debunked anything. What it all boils down to is the scriptures prove themselves if you consider all of the scriptures without ignoring any of them.
Well, you STILL have not answered my question.

For the THIRD time, can a saved child of God live like the devil for years?
 
Jul 8, 2018
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Well, you STILL have not answered my question.

For the THIRD time, can a saved child of God live like the devil for years?
All of mankind inherited the sinful nature of Adam. All were totally depraved until God regenerated his elect. Just because we are born again does not mean that we do not still carry the baggage of that sinful nature, as explained by Paul in the Galatians letter. Does this answer your question? All born again people do, at times, yield themselves to the temptations of that nature. If you fail to realize how depraved you are, you are not worshiping God in truth. Psalms 51:17 - The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, a broken and contrite heart.
 
Oct 25, 2018
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All of mankind inherited the sinful nature of Adam. All were totally depraved until God regenerated his elect. Just because we are born again does not mean that we do not still carry the baggage of that sinful nature, as explained by Paul in the Galatians letter. Does this answer your question? All born again people do, at times, yield themselves to the temptations of that nature. If you fail to realize how depraved you are, you are not worshiping God in truth. Psalms 51:17 - The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, a broken and contrite heart.
You answered with a non-answer here, in my opinion. We all sin, but that does not mean we live like the devil. Can God’s people live like hellions, look like lost people for years?
 
Dec 28, 2016
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You have a very deceitful way of turning your assertions around the opposite direction of what the truth is. If you think Acts 20:27 describes you, you are very prideful and also very wrong.
I'm certain this diatribe was pointed at me since I used Acts 20:27.

For the record I didn't use the verse to describe me, but to show that the Gospel and its truths are out in the open. Not sure why you went off like that, but perhaps you're so blinded with anger you can't see straight?

I did not join myself to the Primitive baptist until after the truth was revealed to me, as I have told you before.
Agreed! You didn't join until after.

But the thing is they gave you their teaching prior to you joining them. Then you went home and convinced yourself of the PB truths they planted in your brain. Then you went back to join their ranks and receive the praise of man "for coming up with the truth all on your own when you lost yourself." You did not come up with that on your own, you were taught it by man. Nothing wrong with being taught by man, by the way.

So this notion that you weren't taught it of man is not even close to the truth. You learned it from man, some elders at a PB church.

Unlike you who sat under instructors teaching you a false doctrine and giving you false documentation to preach said false doctrine.
Not quite, I was a preacher prior to any formal study. I was converted upon hearing the Gospel in 1987 prior to any education.

As far as the education I received, this was from so called "arminian doctrine" and all along I was not in total agreement nor was I comfortable with their gospel, its view of God, or view of man. After being confronted with the doctrines of Grace, and being convinced of these truths in the past I held to these truths by the grace of God and rejected the former teachings.

I read where Paul sat under the top instructor of the old law, but when he was converted, he did not go immediately to the other Apostles, or some preaching school, but went off to himself and was taught by the revelation of the Holy Ghost. You and I can discuss the scriptures in a civil tone or not. Your choice.
He sure did, but that's not your path, you learned your gospel from the PB's. It was not by special revelation as you continue to attempt to assert. Quit trying to be so humbly proud, you heard it from PB's then bought in.

I'd be more than glad to discuss the Scriptures with you, but the problem is you've been telling several lies about my beliefs and person I've had to address them since that was "your choice" to do so. I'm not the only person calling you on your behavior, so, why not admit it, apologize and end it?

And not only that, I've given you Scriptures, and context and you've said nothing about them. Instead you went on to insult, just like this post here.

Want civil discussion? Answer the contextual Scriptures and lose your false accusations. My op and thread was civil, and objective, you need to please follow suit. For the record I don't hate nor do I despise you as a human made in God's image, it is your teaching I am against, not you. I'm not sitting here lying about you.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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I just said the same thing to you and you turned it around just the opposite. I must say that you are strong willed.
Yes, I corrected your accusation brother. My friend, I have not lied about you.

Several times you've said what "we" believe and attempts to correct you were offered.

Is it possible dear friend that you've been told what we believe, and are bringing those presuppositions in your polemic?

Is it then possible that you could be wrong in your assertions at least concerning myself and other Calvinist brothers in this thread?

Can I tell you that yes, some others do believe the things you've stated (the natural man can basically save himself by his will, sinless perfection &c) but that no true Calvinist believes these things? Therefore you're incorrect in saying we believe them? Is that fair?
 
Jul 8, 2018
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You answered with a non-answer here, in my opinion. We all sin, but that does not mean we live like the devil. Can God’s people live like hellions, look like lost people for years?
I guess I am not understanding completely, the "live like hellions, look like lost people for years" is throwing me off. When I mess up and sin, God pricks my heart pretty quick.
 
Jul 8, 2018
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I'm certain this diatribe was pointed at me since I used Acts 20:27.

For the record I didn't use the verse to describe me, but to show that the Gospel and its truths are out in the open. Not sure why you went off like that, but perhaps you're so blinded with anger you can't see straight?



Agreed! You didn't join until after.

But the thing is they gave you their teaching prior to you joining them. Then you went home and convinced yourself of the PB truths they planted in your brain. Then you went back to join their ranks and receive the praise of man "for coming up with the truth all on your own when you lost yourself." You did not come up with that on your own, you were taught it by man. Nothing wrong with being taught by man, by the way.

So this notion that you weren't taught it of man is not even close to the truth. You learned it from man, some elders at a PB church.



Not quite, I was a preacher prior to any formal study. I was converted upon hearing the Gospel in 1987 prior to any education.

As far as the education I received, this was from so called "arminian doctrine" and all along I was not in total agreement nor was I comfortable with their gospel, its view of God, or view of man. After being confronted with the doctrines of Grace, and being convinced of these truths in the past I held to these truths by the grace of God and rejected the former teachings.



He sure did, but that's not your path, you learned your gospel from the PB's. It was not by special revelation as you continue to attempt to assert. Quit trying to be so humbly proud, you heard it from PB's then bought in.

I'd be more than glad to discuss the Scriptures with you, but the problem is you've been telling several lies about my beliefs and person I've had to address them since that was "your choice" to do so. I'm not the only person calling you on your behavior, so, why not admit it, apologize and end it?

And not only that, I've given you Scriptures, and context and you've said nothing about them. Instead you went on to insult, just like this post here.

Want civil discussion? Answer the contextual Scriptures and lose your false accusations. My op and thread was civil, and objective, you need to please follow suit. For the record I don't hate nor do I despise you as a human made in God's image, it is your teaching I am against, not you. I'm not sitting here lying about you.
You are continually asserting that I was taught by some elders of the Primitive Baptist Church. What are you basing your claims on? Were you an eye witness to that fact? You throw blame at me with ease without knowing the facts and just assume that I am lying. I, in fact, did not set foot within a Primitive Baptist Church, or talk to one of their elders until after 12 years of intense studying and had given up on understanding the scriptures to not contradict each other and that is when it was revealed to me from my past studying. Someone told me that the Primitive Baptist taught the doctrine that I had come to understand and I give God the credit for it. We both may need to apologize. I know that I have come back on you a little strong and I am sure it was out of retaliation, which is a sinful attitude. We are instructed to defend the doctrine with meekness.
 
Oct 25, 2018
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I guess I am not understanding completely, the "live like hellions, look like lost people for years" is throwing me off. When I mess up and sin, God pricks my heart pretty quick.
Can God’s saved people live a life of unrepentant sinning for years? Can they fall back into their old lifestyle and die in this unrepentant state and still be welcomed in by God with open arms? That is what I am asking you my friend.
 
Jul 8, 2018
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Yes, I corrected your accusation brother. My friend, I have not lied about you.

Several times you've said what "we" believe and attempts to correct you were offered.

Is it possible dear friend that you've been told what we believe, and are bringing those presuppositions in your polemic?

Is it then possible that you could be wrong in your assertions at least concerning myself and other Calvinist brothers in this thread?

Can I tell you that yes, some others do believe the things you've stated (the natural man can basically save himself by his will, sinless perfection &c) but that no true Calvinist believes these things? Therefore you're incorrect in saying we believe them? Is that fair?
I am in agreement to let the scriptures stand in defense of the doctrine without throwing our personal assumptions at each other. Do you think we can do that?
 
Jul 8, 2018
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Can God’s saved people live a life of unrepentant sinning for years? Can they fall back into their old lifestyle and die in this unrepentant state and still be welcomed in by God with open arms? That is what I am asking you my friend.
I believe the scriptures to teach that once Jesus has sacrificed himself to eternally save those that his Father gave him and said that he would not lose any of them, but raise them all up at the last day. My answer is Yes, all he saved will go to heaven, that is what he said.
 
Jul 8, 2018
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You answered with a non-answer here, in my opinion. We all sin, but that does not mean we live like the devil. Can God’s people live like hellions, look like lost people for years?
Sense you are asking me to clarify myself, do you think you could give me an answer on my question; Where do you think the infants that are too young to understand the gospel go when they die in their infancy?
 
Dec 28, 2016
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You are continually asserting that I was taught by some elders of the Primitive Baptist Church. What are you basing your claims on? Were you an eye witness to that fact?
So you know what I must ask you? The same things? Were you an eyewitness of myself? There is no way you came up with pure PB teaching having never heard of it before. I was born in the morning, just not this morning. ;)

You throw blame at me with ease without knowing the facts and just assume that I am lying.
I am only calling you out for bearing false witness and saying what I believe when attempts were made to correct you.

I, in fact, did not set foot within a Primitive Baptist Church, or talk to one of their elders until after 12 years of intense studying and had given up on understanding the scriptures to not contradict each other and that is when it was revealed to me from my past studying. Someone told me that the Primitive Baptist taught the doctrine that I had come to understand and I give God the credit for it.
Come on, man! First off, this isn't Biblical methodology or ways of God these days, he did this with Paul, apostles and prophets. Instead he has equipped the church for this and we do learn from man, something you loathe at least to the point of presenting yourself as having received special personal revelation.

Where did you go to church when you say Scripture contradicted themselves in those then held beliefs? Something isn't adding up right bro, there is more to it. It's not like you're an apostle and received direct revelation and that "somehow" you used PB catch phrases and terminology after receiving it.

Here is another thing. You say the so-called great commission was given to the apostles and fulfilled and was for them. Right?

This is PB teaching though. Yet you claim the exhortation of Christ that the Spirit would lead them into all truth, making that truth applicable to yourself, correct? But that is an inconsistent hermeneutic -- it is cherry picking Scripture. How so? Through the PB lens brother because they teach the exact same thing! You cannot lay claim to one thing given them then reject the other, and the reason you reject the one and not the other is because it is PB indoctrination coming through.

I'm saying no way. Not trying to offend, I just do not buy it -- you heard something and went with it. You did not receive a Pauline like special revelation you were reading materials, seeing it on the web, you got it somewhere.

This too, there is contradiction in your understanding, these have been addressed, so you have not harmonized all of Scripture which tells me that from the get go you got it all from PB's because that too is one of their cliches.

We both may need to apologize. I know that I have come back on you a little strong and I am sure it was out of retaliation, which is a sinful attitude. We are instructed to defend the doctrine with meekness.
I've not lied about you or your beliefs. But, you want me to apologize? Brother, I have not misrepresented one belief of the PB's. I am a sinner, yes, for sure, but that isn't what I am doing here in this thread.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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I am in agreement to let the scriptures stand in defense of the doctrine without throwing our personal assumptions at each other. Do you think we can do that?
I must reiterate that I've not thrown any assumptions, none, about PB beliefs. I cannot brother say that about you toward us.

And you never addressed this: I stated some may believe what you assert, yet we Calvinists do not believe the things you've asserted on us. Why not man up and own up that you are incorrect? You want an honest discussion without owning up to the things you've said that are false.

You've also not owned the fact that repentance and faith are NOT works of man. You're incorrect in this, and you need to accept that.

But said is a teaching that is foundational to all your other beliefs. All you've done since is dismiss it as unimportant when shown to be incorrect. This is why I continue to show you that you merely skip past these important factors and won't look at the error you're being shown.

That isn't being forthright brother. It is THE foundation of your rejection of belief in the Gospel being to eternal salvation. THE foundation because the reason you reject it is because you say, wrongly, those are works of man so the belief via the Gospel cannot be eternal salvation. So far you just want to brush that under the rug along with other things. I'm really trying brother, you just cannot brush these things off.
 
Oct 25, 2018
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Sense you are asking me to clarify myself, do you think you could give me an answer on my question; Where do you think the infants that are too young to understand the gospel go when they die in their infancy?
I do not know my friend. The Bible is silent on it, in my opinion. I do not think 2 Samuel 12 is proof they are automatically ushered into heaven.
 
Oct 25, 2018
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I believe the scriptures to teach that once Jesus has sacrificed himself to eternally save those that his Father gave him and said that he would not lose any of them, but raise them all up at the last day. My answer is Yes, all he saved will go to heaven, that is what he said.
So, are you saying the saved can live a reckless lifestyle, look no different than the world, live in unrepentant sin and die in that state and still gain heaven? If so, you have zero biblical support for this my friend.
 
May 29, 2013
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With the way preacher4truth explains things about the Primitive Baptist, you will never understand what we believe. I don't think he understands himself. We believe that the scriptures teach that God choose an elect people, of a certain amount,(Eph 1) because by his foreknowledge he saw that all mankind was filthy and none would seek him and that their were none that did good, no, not one (Ps 53:2-3) Because they were totally depraved, he had his Son die on the cross as a sacrifice for their sins to clean them up and make them holy and without blame before him and Jesus said that he would lose none of them, but raise them up at the last day. (John 6:39). As the elect are born into this world, they are born with the sinful nature of Adam until God regenerates them and gives them his Holy Spirit. The inspired scriptures are written to God's regenerated children as instructions as to how God wants them to live their lives here on earth. There is a deliverance (salvation) here in time in coming unto a knowledge of the gospel. Understanding the gospel is not the cause of a person getting eternal life. Understanding the gospel is a product of being born again. Ask me anything that you have a question on and I will try to answer it. You will only get an evasive answer from Preacher4truth and not at all what we believe because he does not know himself. All of God's elect were saved eternally by Jesus's death on the cross.
Okay, well I have interacted with a fellow on Facebook who used to be a preacher in a Pentecostal church who now goes to a Pentecostal beliefs. He seemed to have much appreciation for the conservative dress of women in the movement. He also said something along the lines of being born again first and therefore believing.

How are beliefs different from 'standard' Calvinist or Reformed beliefs?

Do you believe we are saved by grace through faith, or just the faith comes after being saved?

Is there any room for evangelism or missions in the Primitive Baptist movement? It seems to be kind of small, and if it is anti-missions, that would explain one reason why. It grew out of the same general movement that grew out of the Sandy Creek Baptist church in North Carolina, like the Southern Baptists, Missionary Baptists, Free Will Baptists, etc.