How To Be Un-Saved
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R
By continually resisting the truth shown to them that it is blue. That's how.
That is what happens in all unbelievers. They are shown the gospel is true through the testimony of the Holy Spirit, but they reject that testimony, making the Holy Spirit a liar even though they have been shown it to be true and have no excuse (see 1 John 5:10).
Eventually God turns them over to the lie so they can't know the gospel really is true (2 Thessalonians 2:10-11). They are now locked in the deception that the gospel isn't really true. They were shown the sky really is blue yet they were turned over to the lie and reached the state of unbelief that the sky is actually green. We see right from the Bible that is in fact what happens in people who once knew the truth as revealed by the Holy Spirit but who do not know it now.
That is what happens in all unbelievers. They are shown the gospel is true through the testimony of the Holy Spirit, but they reject that testimony, making the Holy Spirit a liar even though they have been shown it to be true and have no excuse (see 1 John 5:10).
Eventually God turns them over to the lie so they can't know the gospel really is true (2 Thessalonians 2:10-11). They are now locked in the deception that the gospel isn't really true. They were shown the sky really is blue yet they were turned over to the lie and reached the state of unbelief that the sky is actually green. We see right from the Bible that is in fact what happens in people who once knew the truth as revealed by the Holy Spirit but who do not know it now.
R
No.
I agree that we can leave the person who doesn't care about the gospel to his sin. It is the turning of one over for the destruction of the flesh that Paul counsels us to do. They must die the death of the cross before they can be saved.
Thank you for your honesty. I mean that.
I do know that kind who profess faith in the gospel but who harbor resentment toward God. They have received the gospel yet they harbor this deep resentment that we've been put in what seems to be nothing more than a celestial game with some very harsh standards of what is right and what is wrong.
It was quite a shock to me to know a believer who believed God but who resented him at the same time for making life and existence what it is. Job was polite in his resentment of life. Some believers aren't so polite. That resentment turns to a kind of contempt. That's dangerous ground for a believer to be on. It can cause a person's heart to become hard and lead them back into the world.
The immature believer still growing up into Christ I would counsel, "don't give up. God is still there for you. Just get through today, let tomorrow worry about tomorrow. He had a flesh body like us. He knows the temptations we face in these bodies. He gets it. That's how you know he can and will and wants to forgive you and give you another chance."
I agree that we can leave the person who doesn't care about the gospel to his sin. It is the turning of one over for the destruction of the flesh that Paul counsels us to do. They must die the death of the cross before they can be saved.
Thank you for your honesty. I mean that.
I do know that kind who profess faith in the gospel but who harbor resentment toward God. They have received the gospel yet they harbor this deep resentment that we've been put in what seems to be nothing more than a celestial game with some very harsh standards of what is right and what is wrong.
It was quite a shock to me to know a believer who believed God but who resented him at the same time for making life and existence what it is. Job was polite in his resentment of life. Some believers aren't so polite. That resentment turns to a kind of contempt. That's dangerous ground for a believer to be on. It can cause a person's heart to become hard and lead them back into the world.
The immature believer still growing up into Christ I would counsel, "don't give up. God is still there for you. Just get through today, let tomorrow worry about tomorrow. He had a flesh body like us. He knows the temptations we face in these bodies. He gets it. That's how you know he can and will and wants to forgive you and give you another chance."
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D
Seeds were cast out. What was different about each seed? Was one a basil, another one a pumpkin, and another one an acorn? What was different with the seeds? Nothing. Same seed.
Now what happened to the seeds? Some eaten by birds, some landed on rocky soil, and some got good soil. Same outcome based on where the seed landed? Nope.
What made the seed grow? Birds eating them? Rocks keeping them high off the ground? Nope. Although, honestly the rocky soil seeds did grow for a bit, but they never became what they were supposed to become -- more plants.
Seed needs nutrition to grow. They do not grow on their own. They grow through the nutrition. What's the nutrition?
God!
And, yeah, I'm not a believer because I don't see it exactly like you? Clue: I don't follow you. My roots dove deep and the soil takes great care of me.
By the way, where does Jesus say we should clean our hearts? Where does it say our hearts "defines us, it is our core, our essence, the thing that makes us think and choose and does everything?"
I thought the Lord was that.
You say a whole lot. Most of it is opinion unrelated to the Lord or Bible.
Now what happened to the seeds? Some eaten by birds, some landed on rocky soil, and some got good soil. Same outcome based on where the seed landed? Nope.
What made the seed grow? Birds eating them? Rocks keeping them high off the ground? Nope. Although, honestly the rocky soil seeds did grow for a bit, but they never became what they were supposed to become -- more plants.
Seed needs nutrition to grow. They do not grow on their own. They grow through the nutrition. What's the nutrition?
God!
And, yeah, I'm not a believer because I don't see it exactly like you? Clue: I don't follow you. My roots dove deep and the soil takes great care of me.
By the way, where does Jesus say we should clean our hearts? Where does it say our hearts "defines us, it is our core, our essence, the thing that makes us think and choose and does everything?"
I thought the Lord was that.
You say a whole lot. Most of it is opinion unrelated to the Lord or Bible.
R
Yes, the life that Christ gives will never end. The question is, are we going to continue to have the life that never ends?
Eternal life is not eternal in that you can not lose it in this age. Eternal life is eternal because it is life that you can have that doesn't peter out on you with time and circumstances like how it was in the old covenant.
In the old covenant you got forgiven your sins because you made a sacrifice, but the sacrifice didn't last on the altar and burned up to nothing, or the High Priest died, or the temple got defiled, and so the 'life' you received was only temporary and lasted only as long as the sacrifice, High Priest, and temple lasted. The old covenant could not give you everlasting life.
But in this New Covenant the High Priest never dies, the Sacrifice is never consumed but is always on the altar before the Father, and the Temple is an everlasting one. The life that covenant gives never ends because the elements of that covenant never end. The question is, are you going to continue to trust in the New Covenant so that the everlasting life it gives is always in your possession?
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Sin is sin regardless, and was not condoning any of it or saying anyone has or would use it as a license to sin. I was mainly trying to make a point to Ralph. I think some of his confusion is due to not differentiating between the sins of a believer versus the sinful ongoing lifestyles of the lost. So whenever anyone says that believers sin (which we do) he is trying to throw believers under the same condemnation as the unrighteous, who it says will not inherit the Kingdom. This is probably why Ralph is confused and thinks we're contradicting ourselves.
I used the example of my pastor just to try and make this point. Maybe it wasn't a good example, but was trying to show the difference. A believer still sins, but the sinful lifestyles mentioned in Corinthians are committed by the lost who have no convictions of their sins yet. And it says that "such were some of you" in that some believers used to engage in such lifestyles before they were saved, but no longer do.
So the ongoing lifestyle sins of the unrighteous (continual life as a thief, as a homosexual etc) are not committed by believers, but believers do still sin.
I used the example of my pastor just to try and make this point. Maybe it wasn't a good example, but was trying to show the difference. A believer still sins, but the sinful lifestyles mentioned in Corinthians are committed by the lost who have no convictions of their sins yet. And it says that "such were some of you" in that some believers used to engage in such lifestyles before they were saved, but no longer do.
So the ongoing lifestyle sins of the unrighteous (continual life as a thief, as a homosexual etc) are not committed by believers, but believers do still sin.
Am still looking for a straight forward Yes, no answers. Honest and truthfully.
If anyone is willing to help me figure this out.
@Depleted if you see this, thanks for your response.
Not everyone is exactly same, does everything, prays every day the same, reads the bible every day Some people may just believe, and live life as it goes forward.
Has anyone in this thread, ever just had times where you rebelled, or you didnt want anything to do with God (you may have gotten angry at God for a while, but then changed around again )? Or you lacked faith?
Ever?
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You say no to all three then say yes to the first who you would counsel.
Yet you don't indicate you would go 2 & 3.
I would, and on that basis I would come to a conclusion.
This is why I asked you the question. Would you seek out all three?
To which you said no.
Thanks for answering point 3, and not dissing me because I did not understand what you were saying.
I'm not sure how to respond to what you say about the point you want to make.
The only thing I could say is that Job was counseled by his friends, Job questions God. Has a bit of a downer.
Then God rebukes his friends then answers Job.
"Brace yourself like a man"
Maybe we as believers can be part of the process by our words that leads to a person hardening their hearts or questions God.
Imagine it "God killed your kids because of your sin"
His friends intimated that God was punishing him.
And we also find Job saying.
Job 3:1-5
Chapter 3
Job Deplores His Birth
1 After this Job opened his mouth and cursed the day of his birth. 2 And Job spoke, and said:
3 “May the day perish on which I was born,
And the night in which it was said,
‘A male child is conceived.’
4 May that day be darkness;
May God above not seek it,
Nor the light shine upon it.
5 May darkness and the shadow of death claim it;
May a cloud settle on it;
May the blackness of the day terrify it.
It seems that Job resented the day he was born, if he resents that then is it possible that by inference he resents God and therefore questions him?
Let us not be like Jobs mates
Yet you don't indicate you would go 2 & 3.
I would, and on that basis I would come to a conclusion.
This is why I asked you the question. Would you seek out all three?
To which you said no.
Thanks for answering point 3, and not dissing me because I did not understand what you were saying.
I'm not sure how to respond to what you say about the point you want to make.
The only thing I could say is that Job was counseled by his friends, Job questions God. Has a bit of a downer.
Then God rebukes his friends then answers Job.
"Brace yourself like a man"
Maybe we as believers can be part of the process by our words that leads to a person hardening their hearts or questions God.
Imagine it "God killed your kids because of your sin"
His friends intimated that God was punishing him.
And we also find Job saying.
Job 3:1-5
Chapter 3
Job Deplores His Birth
1 After this Job opened his mouth and cursed the day of his birth. 2 And Job spoke, and said:
3 “May the day perish on which I was born,
And the night in which it was said,
‘A male child is conceived.’
4 May that day be darkness;
May God above not seek it,
Nor the light shine upon it.
5 May darkness and the shadow of death claim it;
May a cloud settle on it;
May the blackness of the day terrify it.
It seems that Job resented the day he was born, if he resents that then is it possible that by inference he resents God and therefore questions him?
Let us not be like Jobs mates
WHat??Who's going to take it away?
IF it can be lost then it is not Eternal. It is temporary.
Any verses on the Lord Jesus giving His Sheep Temporary Life??
I don't agree with you on any of this but I don't really think it has bearing on what we're talking about... So, moving on..
Who is going to take it from me???
Hi Lynn,
You are questioning what scripture means by the heart.
The heart is used over 100 times in the new testament alone and is an important concept.
Here is the definition for a greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2588: καρδία
καρδία, καρδίας, ἡ, poetic κραδία and καρδιη (in the latter form almost always in Homer (only at the beginning of a line in three places; everywhere else by metathesis κραδιη; Ebeling, Lex. Homer, under the word)) (from a root signifying to quiver or palpitate; cf. Cartius § 39; Vanicek, p. 1097 (Etym. Magn. 491, 56 παράτόκραδαίνω, τόσείω. ἀεικινητοςγάρἡκαρδία); allied with Latincor; English heart); the Sept. for לֵב and לֵבָב;
the heart;
1. properly, that organ in the animal body which is the center of the circulation of the blood, and hence, was regarded as the seat of physical life: 2 Samuel 18:14; 2 Kings 9:24; Tobit 6:5 (4), 7f (6f), 17 (16). Hence,
2. universally, καρδία denotes the seat and center of all physical and spiritual life; and
a. the vigor and sense of physical life (Psalm 101:5 (); στήρισον τήν καρδίαν σου ψωμῷ ἄρτου, Judges 19:5; to which add Psalm 103:15 ()): τρέφειν τάς καρδίας, James 5:5; ἐμπιπλῶν τάς καρδίας τροφῆς, Acts 14:17; βάρειν τῆς καρδίας κραιπάλῃ καί μέθη, Luke 21:34; (but see b. δ. below);
b. the center and seat of spiritual life, "the soul or mind, as it is the fountain and seat of the thoughts, passions, desires, appetites, affections, purposes, endeavors" (so in English heart, inner man, etc.); α. universally: Matthew 5:8; Matthew 6:21; Mark 7:19; Luke 1:51; Luke 2:51; Luke 8:12, 15; Acts 5:3; Romans 10:9; 1 Corinthians 14:25; 2 Corinthians 6:11; Ephesians 6:5; Colossians 3:22; 1 Peter 3:4, etc.; plural: Matthew 9:4; Mark 2:6, 8; Mark 4:16
It takes me by surprise that you even tried to question what the heart is because this is
such a foundational idea.
You are questioning what scripture means by the heart.
The heart is used over 100 times in the new testament alone and is an important concept.
Here is the definition for a greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2588: καρδία
καρδία, καρδίας, ἡ, poetic κραδία and καρδιη (in the latter form almost always in Homer (only at the beginning of a line in three places; everywhere else by metathesis κραδιη; Ebeling, Lex. Homer, under the word)) (from a root signifying to quiver or palpitate; cf. Cartius § 39; Vanicek, p. 1097 (Etym. Magn. 491, 56 παράτόκραδαίνω, τόσείω. ἀεικινητοςγάρἡκαρδία); allied with Latincor; English heart); the Sept. for לֵב and לֵבָב;
the heart;
1. properly, that organ in the animal body which is the center of the circulation of the blood, and hence, was regarded as the seat of physical life: 2 Samuel 18:14; 2 Kings 9:24; Tobit 6:5 (4), 7f (6f), 17 (16). Hence,
2. universally, καρδία denotes the seat and center of all physical and spiritual life; and
a. the vigor and sense of physical life (Psalm 101:5 (); στήρισον τήν καρδίαν σου ψωμῷ ἄρτου, Judges 19:5; to which add Psalm 103:15 ()): τρέφειν τάς καρδίας, James 5:5; ἐμπιπλῶν τάς καρδίας τροφῆς, Acts 14:17; βάρειν τῆς καρδίας κραιπάλῃ καί μέθη, Luke 21:34; (but see b. δ. below);
b. the center and seat of spiritual life, "the soul or mind, as it is the fountain and seat of the thoughts, passions, desires, appetites, affections, purposes, endeavors" (so in English heart, inner man, etc.); α. universally: Matthew 5:8; Matthew 6:21; Mark 7:19; Luke 1:51; Luke 2:51; Luke 8:12, 15; Acts 5:3; Romans 10:9; 1 Corinthians 14:25; 2 Corinthians 6:11; Ephesians 6:5; Colossians 3:22; 1 Peter 3:4, etc.; plural: Matthew 9:4; Mark 2:6, 8; Mark 4:16
It takes me by surprise that you even tried to question what the heart is because this is
such a foundational idea.
You seem to be confusing some ideas here.
The seed is either Gods word or our spiritual lives.
The soil is either us or God.
If the soil is God how can it be hard, or soft, good or bad?
And the seed, if it represents us, then we are eaten by the birds.
But let us listen to Jesus in the parable.
When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path.
The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy.
But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.
Matt 13:19-21
The seed is the message, the path is the heart that does not understand.
Now this seems fairly simple, but you appear to be changing its meaning and
implications. Odd when you claim I am saying a lot not related to the bible,
when you are not following the bible and the parable at all.
The seed is either Gods word or our spiritual lives.
The soil is either us or God.
If the soil is God how can it be hard, or soft, good or bad?
And the seed, if it represents us, then we are eaten by the birds.
But let us listen to Jesus in the parable.
When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path.
The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy.
But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.
Matt 13:19-21
The seed is the message, the path is the heart that does not understand.
Now this seems fairly simple, but you appear to be changing its meaning and
implications. Odd when you claim I am saying a lot not related to the bible,
when you are not following the bible and the parable at all.
R
To a certain extent, yes, I think Job resented God's will in all of what he suffered. But he did not let it become a resentment or contempt for God himself inside of him.
Yes, let us make right judgments.
What Job's friends said could have well applied to someone else in similar circumstances, just not to Job. We should be careful to discern when and where that kind of counsel applies.
Yes, let us make right judgments.
What Job's friends said could have well applied to someone else in similar circumstances, just not to Job. We should be careful to discern when and where that kind of counsel applies.
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Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father."
Galatians 4:6
And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
Philippians 4:7
May the Lord direct your hearts into God's love and Christ's perseverance.
2 Thess 3:5
Flee the evil desires of youth, and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
2 Tim 2:22
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.
Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
Matt 23:25-26
But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.'
For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.
These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.'"
Matt 15:18-20
Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart.
1 Peter 1:22
If any believer does not know what forgiveness and purity in the heart is, how
can they claim to know the Lord at all.
The Holy Spirit does not dwell in impure hearts.
May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones
1 Thess 3:13
I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith.
Eph 3:16-17
Galatians 4:6
And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
Philippians 4:7
May the Lord direct your hearts into God's love and Christ's perseverance.
2 Thess 3:5
Flee the evil desires of youth, and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
2 Tim 2:22
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.
Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
Matt 23:25-26
But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.'
For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.
These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.'"
Matt 15:18-20
Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart.
1 Peter 1:22
If any believer does not know what forgiveness and purity in the heart is, how
can they claim to know the Lord at all.
The Holy Spirit does not dwell in impure hearts.
May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones
1 Thess 3:13
I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith.
Eph 3:16-17