How To Be Un-Saved

[Depleted]

Is unsaved really just mean unbelieving?

Is unbelief, not being saved?

Is having belief, then maybe not talking to God, or the Lord Jesus Christ for a little while, or reading your bible does God reject your belief?

You're face down in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean for ten hours.

Someone comes along and saves you. (Complete with giving you life anew.)

Now, what did your belief have to do with that?

And given belief had to be involved or you'd still be face down in the Atlantic, whose belief saved you?

And given the Savior saved you, what happens next? Do you make your way back to the middle of the Atlantic, face down and wait for death to take you again? Or are you doing the obvious thing -- figuring out who that Savior is and following him around forever grateful eternally?

Dead Man Walking! I'm following the Savior. And even when I'm stupid enough to start swimming back, he is merciful enough to stop me. After all -- "Savior!" Savior doesn't stop saving!

 

[Katy-follower]

YES! As long as you have the Holy Spirit through faith in Christ you do indeed have the guarantee that you will enter into the inheritance. If you stop believing and go back to the world you will lose that which guarantees your entrance into the kingdom.

The King's seal cannot be revoked.

Esther 8:8: You yourselves write a decree concerning the Jews, as you please, in the king’s name, and seal it with the king’s signet ring; for whatever is written in the king’s name and sealed with the king’s signet ring no one can revoke.”

 

[Deade]

You're face down in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean for ten hours.

Someone comes along and saves you. (Complete with giving you life anew.)

Now, what did your belief have to do with that?

And given belief had to be involved or you'd still be face down in the Atlantic, whose belief saved you?

And given the Savior saved you, what happens next? Do you make your way back to the middle of the Atlantic, face down and wait for death to take you again? Or are you doing the obvious thing -- figuring out who that Savior is and following him around forever grateful eternally?

Dead Man Walking! I'm following the Savior. And even when I'm stupid enough to start swimming back, he is merciful enough to stop me. After all -- "Savior!" Savior doesn't stop saving!

Lord, please don't let me swim back

 

[Depleted]

Is there anyone willing to help me with these questions please?

Hey! Give me a break. You posted that eight hours ago. Eight hours ago in my time zone was 5 AM. I was sleeping. And good thing too. I hate being up at 5 AM.

Time zones. Try and remember time zones. You asked after most folks had said "good night." lol

 

[Chester]

Well we could take it that way, Or we could take it as spoken, and as the example would show. And when the shepherd comes. HIS sheep hear his voice. The ones who are not do not hear his voice. The ones who hear his voice. Follow him.


I think some people just read to much into it.

if a shepherd when looking for a lost sheep. And he called out to it, His sheep would hear his voice and follow. It would be written the exact same way it is written in scripture.

I'm not sure how I am reading anything into the text . . .?

 

[BillG]

Lord, please don't let me swim back View attachment 179113

Your are in good hands.

 

[Depleted]

...Or they were not strong believers and had shallow roots and fell away.


“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away."-Luke 8:13


“The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away."-Matthew 13:20-21


Only the 4th type of soil has the word deeply rooted in it and endures to the end in a mature fruitfulness.


“But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.”-Luke 8:15


Strive to become a 4th type of soil believer with an honest and good heart where you have a deep 'knowing', mature relationship with God from which you will not fall away and in which you endure to the very end in salvation. Only 4th type of soil believers have any boast of not falling away. They are the ones who know Christ and who can not be swayed. Those who never know him this way are the ones who can fall away.

The strength isn't in the plant. The strength is in the soil. Dig deep into the soil for strength.

 

[Depleted]

For corn's sake, Penn, it's a mataphor.
Do we 'sheep' need to be like actual sheep in every single aspect for John 10 to be true? Of course not. Take away what Jesus intended from the use of the metaphor and leave it at that.




Sometimes the one that wanders away gets devoured and there's nothing to bring back.

Many of us know of people who used to believe but who do not believe now, having been devoured by the enemy. There is no believer to bring back. Not everybody responds to God's call to come back to the safety of the pen.

Probably because they thought the plant was the source of strength.

 

[Depleted]

In this discussion the basis of it has to be questioned.
Once you say X represents a saved believer, this means they will make it to heaven.
If you say X represents the first step on the road to salvation, then you are saying
salvation is a journey. Only the Lord knows who will finish and is written in the Lambs
book of life.

So the premise of identifying the "saved" is not viable, when you have to say of this
group of enthusiastic followers, some will fall away, because they were never real.

Jesus says simply it is about change, how far the roots go down into ones heart,
and the start is the same for all. Now all listen to Jesus, until for some the root
is stopped and the limit declared in their life.

So Jesus promises His sheep about their attributes, but we will never know who is
real and who is not. But that is also the point, in love we treat all the same, no matter
who or what they are.

And His sheep obey Him and follow His ways. How is this hard to comprehend?
What concerns me, is those who close the door to Jesus, to forgiving others, to
letting go of sinful behaviour, to finding resolution to needs and hurts in their hearts.
And to pile terrible words of faithlessness, hypocracy, lying on top is truly sad.
Are you a sheep who hears Jesus talking to you, or is it just a game of passing
the faith mark, and then believing that is all there is?

Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted.
Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
Matt 5:3-5

We are all these things.

[h=1]Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?[/h]Roots don't dig into the heart. Well, maybe some do. Roots dig into the soil. (God is the soil, in case anyone is missing the connection here.)

 

[LightLoveHope]

The strength isn't in the plant. The strength is in the soil. Dig deep into the soil for strength.

Where do you get the idea the soil is God?
The seed and sower, the soil is peoples hearts, some are hard and do not receive Gods word,
while the good soil does, and the roots of Gods word can go deep.

If you are claiming the soil is God, then how does God have barren places and paths across Him?
I am just wondering what you were thinking and how it hangs together?

Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop--a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.
Matthew 13:8

For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.
Matthew 13:15

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'm not sure how I am reading anything into the text . . .?

Because your focusing on the word hearing and following which yes, is in present tense, but the focus is on his sheep,

you could say his sheep are always in a state of hearing and following when he comes. As apposed to those who are not his sheep who never hear and never follow

 

[LightLoveHope]

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?

Roots don't dig into the heart. Well, maybe some do. Roots dig into the soil. (God is the soil, in case anyone is missing the connection here.)

We are using different meaning.
You are suggesting we are the plant and God is the soil. Where is scripture is this true?

And you are saying in effect we can never have a pure clean heart, and just writing off
the possibility of God sorting anything out. This is what I call unbelief and closing the
door on the Holy Spirit. We are our hearts, it is what defines us, it is our core, our essence,
the thing that makes us think and choose and does everything. Or are you suggesting again
we are not our hearts, but our spirit or our soul, which is separate from our hearts.

So maybe you think when Jesus says our hearts defile us, and we should clean our hearts He
was being sarcastic, because we do not need clean hearts.

Except Paul says this

This is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight,
so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless until the day of Christ,
filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ--to the glory and praise of God.
Philippians 1:9-11

If Pauls ambition for the believers is they be pure and blameless, it is not an
impossible dream, but our calling. But maybe not your calling then, as you
seem to believe God does not purify you

 

[Grandpa]

Originally Posted by DJ2

Okay Grandpa lets see how simple this truly is.

1. Who are the sheep? It seems that is a big part of this debate.
2 What is the voice/message? It seems what message is being heard is rather important.
3 What does it mean to "follow"? What & how we follow is quite a hot topic here.
4. What is the meaning of "I give unto them eternal life"? When does this happen?
5. Does the "neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" include the ability for the sheep to resist the lordship of the shepherd?
6. Does the phrase "My Father, which gave them to me" imply only those who are faithful to the end or to those who were faithful at least once during their life?

Your post is rather typical of many on this thread, pick a verse and insert your assumptions. Never willing to even consider another possibility.

Originally Posted by Grandpa

Hahahaha. Insert my assumptions? It seems you are the one trying to do that.

The verses very simply state what they state. You are the one that wants to try and place some sort of doubt upon them because of your own philosophy and your own hate.

1. The sheep are the ones that hear the Lords Voice.
2. The message is that once someone is saved they are Eternally Saved.
3. A person follows the Lord Jesus when they hear His Voice. Its just a fact.
4. It is Salvation. It happens when a person comes to Christ and is Saved.
5. Yes. They are men. No man is able to pluck them out of the Lords Hand.
6. I could continue to describe rainbows to blind men but is it really going to do any good???


Why can't you read the verses for what they actually say instead of trying to put your assumptions into them?

There is a such thing as the Lords Sheep. Fact.
Those sheep receive ETERNAL LIFE. Fact.
NO man can take them away from the Lord. Fact.
The Father is Greater than all and no one can take them from Him. Fact.

SO at the very least, if you are to be honest, you would say that the bible in fact states and upholds OSAS.

The question in your mind is WHO has received this. That's a fine question. But OSAS is what the Lord Jesus Christ has stated in His Word. You are trying to say that He Lies by your silly philosophy and He does not lie.​

​

If you begin with the first question that DJ2 asks:

Who are the sheep?​

Verse 27 gives the simple answer from the text (John 10)

ta probata ta ema tes phones mou akouousin, kago ginosko auta, kai akolouthousin moi

The sheep of me the voice of me are hearing, and I am knowing them, and they are following me.
(My sheep are hearing my voice, and I am knowing them, and they are following me.)

When verse 27 is fulfilled and is happening, then what verses 28 and 29 say is always true of these sheep. If verse 27 is not happening - that is, a person is not hearing and is not following, then the promises of verses 28 and verse 29 do not apply.

It is that simple; exactly as the text says it: How in the world does anyone get "once saved always saved" out of John 10:27-29???????????????

You don't see it?

John 10:27-29

[SUP]27 [/SUP]My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

The Lord gives His Sheep Eternal Life. That's Salvation.

Who can take this Salvation away? Answer - no one.

How long does Eternal Life last? Answer - a really long time.

So Once someone is Saved they are eternally saved. That's for always.
​

 

[Speak2Me]

In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

Now you've said something worthwhile!

It's not that we believe in Christ(existance), but our trust & reliance is in Him.

That's what it means in Romans when it says, "the just shall live(continuously) by faith (trusting & relying on Him)

We begin this life in trusting & relying on Christ, & we end it the same.

Can we at least agree on that?

 

[Speak2Me]

Well Ralph-, the parable of the sower is talking about the word of God falling in unfavorable places. This is not the Holy Spirit. The receiving of the HS is probably rarer than we think. Once God gives us His Spirit, we won't stop believing.

Really?

What about the christian woman who lived for God all her life, married a faithful christian, had a child, & a few years later her child gets sick & dies.

The woman prays earnestly, calls churches & asks them to pray, & all to no avail.

After the child dies, the woman gives up & quits believing, quits going to church, & nobody can change her mind.

What now? Are we gonna settle this by saying she was never saved to begin with?!?

 

[Speak2Me]

If you are shown the sky is blue, how do you reach that state of unbelief to where you believe it's actually green?

A believer does not go back to spiritual blindness once their eyes are open.

That's a poor analysis.
Just what do you think delusion means?

 

[Speak2Me]

Reminds me of the scriptures that confirm believers are no longer enemies.

Romans 5:8-11: "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation"

An adulterous wife can be reconciled, but she can commit adultery again.

Israel did it all the time.

Let's not forget spiritual adultery is mentioned all thru the NT.

 

[Ralph-]

Well Ralph-, the parable of the sower is talking about the word of God falling in unfavorable places. This is not the Holy Spirit.

The 2nd type of soil believed. That's what Jesus said.
That means they had the Holy Spirit.

The receiving of the HS is probably rarer than we think. Once God gives us His Spirit, we won't stop believing.

And that's kind of the point I am making. Not everyone matures in the Holy Spirit to the point of not being able to fall from the faith. Few do in fact.

Even though the 2nd type of soil believed (and so had the Holy Spirit), they weren't deeply rooted in a mature knowing of Christ. They never knew him that way before they fell away. The person who grows to the 4th kind of soil in a mature knowing of Christ can not fall away.

And I agree, few get to that place. Using another analogy, that is the narrow door that few enter through. That's why I don't get too excited that what I share here in the forums is among those in the minority, not the majority. Truth is found in the minority. Generally speaking, if it's popular it probably isn't true or it's terribly watered down. The real truth is hard.

 

[BillG]

Hi Bill,

What is being shared is that SIN will keep all those who practice it out of God's KINGDOM. If your FAITH does not have the FRUIT of OBEDIENCE then you are still in your SINS. We are not saved by what we do but by faith in BELIEVING God's WORD alowing Christ to WORK in us to do of HIS own good pleasure.

As the scriptures say if your tree has no fruit it will be cast down and thrown into the fire because your faith is dead (Matthew 7:12-23; James2:18-20; 26)

SIN is breaking GOd's Commandments not following God's Word through FAITH that works by LOVE is UNBELIEF in God's WORD. This is SIN and KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN will keep all those who practice it OUT of God's KINGDOM come judgement day.

.................

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

In times of ignorance God winks at but now ,<when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).

Evening LGF.

Fruit.

We ask know that fruit takes time to grow.
To bear fruit the group must be tilled, prepared, fertelized watered.

That is physical fruit but it also applies to spiritual fruit.

We also know with physical fruit that branches need to be pruned, even when it is bearing fruit.

The same also applies to spiritual fruit.

John 15:1-4
Chapter 15
The True Vine
1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

So if a branch starts to bear fruit it is pruned and nurtured to bear more fruit.
Those who bear fruit are already clean because of the word and therefore will be pruned.

So what is the fruit?


Galatians 5:22-26


22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

As we grow in the in the fruit, or should I say as re fruit grows in us then we grow in obedience.

Now here is the thing for me.
I'm sure you will not mind me saying it.
Firstly because you have said it many times and it's part of your signature line.

God's 4th commandment, one of the 10.

I could manifest the fruit that leads to crucifying the flesh and walking in love to my fellow believers, and my enemies.
Walking in such love as Jesus asked us to.

Yet me thinks even if I did all that perfectly I am still practicing sin because I set aside or fellowship with my church on a Sunday then I am practicing sin and as you say above

"God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)"

Here is my understanding of the SDA doctrine.

The mark of the beast per Revelation 14 will be placed on those who worship on Sunday and not Saturday.
Those follow the SDA doctrines are the only true followers of God, the true remnant.

At the end of time Sunday keepers week week to destroy Saturday keepers, pass laws then eventually pass the death penalty.
These laws were prophesied by Ellen White

Revelation 12:17
17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 13:15
15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

Now what gets me is that according to this doctrine I actually have the mark of the beast.
We can't separate the end time from the current time.
You either have the mark of the beast or do not.

As a person who had the mark of the beast then I would endorse such laws and would be happy to see SDA'S killed or not allowed to buy food. Therefore I obviously do not have the fruit of the spirit.

I actually find that shocking that brothers in Christ would do that and that SDA believe they would.
They being the case I'm not obviously a brother and the same for non SDA'S.

Finally what I find interesting is that over the last 20 years (over here anyway) Sunday trading laws have been changed from nothing happening on a Sunday to trading as of today allowed for 6 hours.

Yet if a believer applied for job that included working on a Sunday and said they do not work on a Sunday because of their Christan believe they will not be offered the job and their is no comeback on the employer.

Even today believers who in the workplace wear an icthus or a cross on a chain and have been told by their employers not to do so as a result of religious laws that may cause offence and have refused then sacked, have lost an appeal against it.

Yet the workplace can't touch Muslims, they have to accommodate their religion practices and attire.

My friend what Ellen White prophesied is happening to those keep Sunday as the Sabbath.

 

[Ralph-]

After the child dies, the woman gives up & quits believing, quits going to church, & nobody can change her mind.

What now? Are we gonna settle this by saying she was never saved to begin with?!?

What it gives us is an indication of the strength of her faith, not that it never existed in her or not. Though so many have been conditioned to automatically think she never believed at all to begin with.

Like I have said, faith in the Bible is more of a 'strong faith vs. weak faith' thing, rather than a 'faith vs. no faith at all' thing. Persecutions, afflictions, and temptations show us how deep our roots go down and reveal how much the forgiveness of our sins means to us and how strong our love for righteousness really is.