How To Be Un-Saved

[Yahshua]

yes, Israel still had to journey to the promised land after they were rescued from slavery. but, they complained, rebelled, did not trust God to provide.

and, through all that, God still took them to the promised land. they broke the Covenant many times, God never turned His back on them.

when God got them there, they refused to go in. God never " took away " His promise , Israel refused to enter into it. the fault was theirs, all the way. God never refused to take them in, until after they had already decided not to go.

My point exactly.

None of that generation who were saved from Egypt saw the promised land because of their actions (or in their case, their inaction). And God said, "how long will these people treat me with contempt" because they didn't have enough faith to take action and conquer the land. "They shall never experience my rest."

Faith without works is no faith at all.

We have work to do.

 

[Didymous]

HAHAHAH I wear $185 Rocky boots nonstop and when in AU.....flip flops "thongs" or tennis shoes or bare feet....AHHAHAHHAHA

I like bare feet at home, but wear Danners outside.

 

[gb9]

My point exactly.

None of that generation who were saved from Egypt saw the promised land because of their actions (or in their case, their inaction). And God said, "how long will these people treat me with contempt" because they didn't have enough faith to take action and conquer the land. "They shall never experience my rest."

Faith without works is no faith at all.

We have work to do.

the point I was trying to make was this- God did His part. the people refused. they , through unbelief, caused themselves to miss the promise land. God did not take it away.

they did not " lose their salvation " they never had it. God does not " take " our salvation, we can never truly have it.

so, this concept that they had to " work " their way there to earn it is bunk. they had it at the Burning Bush, God had already decreed what He would do. the people refused to accept it.

the same way many profess to believe in Christ, but deep inside, they do not. it is about belief , not works. true belief will produce good works. not works earn salvation, that is backwards.

 

[DJ2]

There are Christians who are:

1. carnal minded
2. don't have the Holy Ghost
3. do not worship in truth and the spirit

I did not know such Christians existed.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You're at least willing to answer a question directly instead of dodging it or avoiding it. But you're still incorrectly uniting two related things together that are not the same thing.

Being saved =/= the kingdom of god

Being saved is not the kingdom of god. That's probably where the confusion lies. We are saved from our sins and we then proceed towards the promised kingdom of god, receiving a down payment on that promise with the receipt of the Holy Spirit.

[Just like Israel was saved from Egypt but then had to proceed towards their promised kingdom.]

Christ is the embodiment of the kingdom since he's the king, with all the benefits that come with that kingdom (i.e. authority over all the works of the satan).

Judas tasted the kingdom along with every other apostle because he was with Christ and received authority from him to cast out demons etc...but Judas sinned against the king, betraying him.

Judas wasn't saved. But he tasted of the kingdom but sinned willfully. Compare that to Peter who denied Christ out of fear.

This serves as an example of what Hebrew says; that those who taste of the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come (i.e. the kingdom), who sin willfully, can't be once again renewed.

This is exactly why the couple who sold their land to support the movement but willfully lied (i.e. sinned) about how much they received (trying to keep some for themselves) were struck dead, because they tasted the kingdom in the form of witnessing the Holy Spirit of Christ and they knew the truth.

if your saved your saved, if you may not make it to heaven, your not saved, period. You may have what you call a down payment, But even that is flawed. Because it says our down payment was good UNTIL the day of redemption (At which time we can not longer sin for we will have received our glorified bodies)

As for Israel, Only a few were actually saved, The rest were people who continued in sin from the time they left until the time they died (unable to enter because of unbelief) And Moses because of a sin he committed (do you think Moses failed to enter??)

why are you insistent to add your works to grace?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

"So what God gave all of those things as examples to learm from for us to whom the ends of the earth have come. It's all done away with anyhow." Right?

Each and every family still must choose The Spotless Lamb and confess their sins onto the lamb. If that doesn't happen there isn't any subsequent work for the High Priest to do on behalf of that family. The High Priest still had to take blood from the spotless lamb into the true temple.

Reality follows the symbols.

really? Can you please explain how it is possible that a person can come to the high priest on the day of atonement and confess EVERY sin he made since the last day of atonement?

I mean really. how do you expect them to be able to do that?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

My point exactly.

None of that generation who were saved from Egypt saw the promised land because of their actions (or in their case, their inaction). And God said, "how long will these people treat me with contempt" because they didn't have enough faith to take action and conquer the land. "They shall never experience my rest."

Faith without works is no faith at all.

We have work to do.

no they did not enter BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF.

 

[Magenta]

if your saved your saved, if you may not make it to heaven, your not saved, period. You may have what you call a down payment, But even that is flawed. Because it says our down payment was good UNTIL the day of redemption (At which time we can not longer sin for we will have received our glorified bodies)

The Seed is incorruptible 1 Peter 1:23

For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but
of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

 

[Chester]

no they did not enter BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF.

Exactly!!!!

 

[Yahshua]

the point I was trying to make was this- God did His part. the people refused. they , through unbelief, caused themselves to miss the promise land. God did not take it away.

they did not " lose their salvation " they never had it. God does not " take " our salvation, we can never truly have it.

so, this concept that they had to " work " their way there to earn it is bunk. they had it at the Burning Bush, God had already decreed what He would do. the people refused to accept it.

the same way many profess to believe in Christ, but deep inside, they do not. it is about belief , not works. true belief will produce good works. not works earn salvation, that is backwards.

The theme of this thread is "how to be unsaved", and my argument was that through a person's action they can become unsaved. This led us down many rabbit trails as some argued against my examples, leading us back to the point i just made to you. Yes. It's because of the person that the person can become un-saved. It's not because of God. God would have all men saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Some would argue that not even that person's actions can unsaved them.

God saves. Man responds.

God saves Noah. Noah had to build the arc in obedience else he would've died.

God saves lot's family. That family could not turn back but had to keep walking in obedience or be turned to salt.

God commanded Moses to save his people at the burning bush. Moses had to obey and go back to Egypt.

God saves Israel. Israel had to smear blood on the doorposts of their homes to save their firstborn.

God covenants with israel. Israel had to keep walking and conquer the promise land as instructed or wander the wilderness until dead.

Notice in each of these examples first God saves, but then it's on man to respond.

You toss a life jacket to a drowning man. The man has to put it on. Lets say he does put it on as he's toed into the ship. Does this mean he can't choose to take off the life jacket at any point in the middle of being toed? Of course not. He can make any decision he wants. It wouldn't be wise to do but he's free to make that choice.

God saves us. We have to remain obedient to God as proof of our belief in him to keep the life jacket on. Sure we stumble, but as long as one's heart is true to God and we don't willfully, "remove the life jacket", we won't drown.

The two go hand in hand: faith and obedience as proof of that faith.

 

[Ralph-]

...our down payment was good UNTIL the day of redemption

Yep. The promissory note of the Holy Spirit is good until the day of redemption. That's why you should hold on to Him. He is your guarantee that you belong to Christ's body and will inherit the promises. Keep believing and you will continue to have the Holy Spirit that guarantees your entrance into the kingdom. He is your reservation that you have to have at the end of the age to go into the kingdom.

Right now you are saying, "but that would be works". You have been infected with this horrible doctrine that says believing is also included in the works that Paul says can not justify. But, even as you know, there is no such scripture that says that. That's why you and everybody else can not meet the challenge to post the passage that says my believing is me trying to work my way to heaven, as if believing is a self righteous work (Paul says it is not).

Like I've said before, virtually all false doctrines stem from the church's profound misunderstanding of Paul's faith vs. works teaching. Once saved always saved is definitely a good example of that.

 

[Ralph-]

The Seed is incorruptible 1 Peter 1:23

For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but
of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

The seed did not stay in the 2nd kind of soil in the Parable of the sower. So we know the seed being imperishable does not mean your soil can't reject it after it's been planted.

Only the person in whom the Word goes down deep and thrives in fruitfulness on the top can make any boast of being irreversibly saved. You grow to the place where you will not turn back in an unbelieving rejection of the word of God that saved you (soil #4).

Which is interesting, because the fourth type of soil is soundly rejected in on-line forums as being purely hypothetical and anyone who even suggests they're becoming that kind of soil is a self righteous, sinless perfectionist, 'worker for'. How ironic.

 

[mailmandan]

There are Christians who are:

1. carnal minded
2. don't have the Holy Ghost
3. do not worship in truth and the spirit

I did not know such Christians existed.

They are what you call "nominal" Christians.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The Seed is incorruptible 1 Peter 1:23

For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but
of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Amen, they do not realize how their belief system really tears into the character of God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The theme of this thread is "how to be unsaved", and my argument was that through a person's action they can become unsaved. This led us down many rabbit trails as some argued against my examples, leading us back to the point i just made to you. Yes. It's because of the person that the person can become un-saved. It's not because of God. God would have all men saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Some would argue that not even that person's actions can unsaved them.

God saves. Man responds.

God saves Noah. Noah had to build the arc in obedience else he would've died.

God saves lot's family. That family could not turn back but had to keep walking in obedience or be turned to salt.

God commanded Moses to save his people at the burning bush. Moses had to obey and go back to Egypt.

God saves Israel. Israel had to smear blood on the doorposts of their homes to save their firstborn.

God covenants with israel. Israel had to keep walking and conquer the promise land as instructed or wander the wilderness until dead.

Notice in each of these examples first God saves, but then it's on man to respond.

You toss a life jacket to a drowning man. The man has to put it on. Lets say he does put it on as he's toed into the ship. Does this mean he can't choose to take off the life jacket at any point in the middle of being toed? Of course not. He can make any decision he wants. It wouldn't be wise to do but he's free to make that choice.

God saves us. We have to remain obedient to God as proof of our belief in him to keep the life jacket on. Sure we stumble, but as long as one's heart is true to God and we don't willfully, "remove the life jacket", we won't drown.

The two go hand in hand: faith and obedience as proof of that faith.

if a persons ACTIONS can cause them to lose salvation. then we are saved not by Grace, but by works.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yep. The promissory note of the Holy Spirit is good until the day of redemption. That's why you should hold on to Him. He is your guarantee that you belong to Christ's body and will inherit the promises. Keep believing and you will continue to have the Holy Spirit that guarantees your entrance into the kingdom. He is your reservation that you have to have at the end of the age to go into the kingdom.

Right now you are saying, "but that would be works". You have been infected with this horrible doctrine that says believing is also included in the works that Paul says can not justify. But, even as you know, there is no such scripture that says that. That's why you and everybody else can not meet the challenge to post the passage that says my believing is me trying to work my way to heaven, as if believing is a self righteous work (Paul says it is not).

Like I've said before, virtually all false doctrines stem from the church's profound misunderstanding of Paul's faith vs. works teaching. Once saved always saved is definitely a good example of that.

I can not hold on the the HS, He holds on to me. I did not earn the Holy Spirit. he was a gift.

It says I am sealed UNTIL the day of redemption. It says that three times in scripture. In neither of those cases did it say we are sealed until that day UNLESS we stop holding on. or UNLESS we stop working. or UNLESS we stop believing.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

They are what you call "nominal" Christians.

I would call them FAKE Christians, or christian in name only. or "Unsaved" Christians.

 

[mailmandan]

I would call them FAKE Christians, or christian in name only. or "Unsaved" Christians.

Exactly! Nominal "in name only" Christians.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The seed did not stay in the 2nd kind of soil in the Parable of the sower. So we know the seed being imperishable does not mean your soil can't reject it after it's been planted.

Only the person in whom the Word goes down deep and thrives in fruitfulness on the top can make any boast of being irreversibly saved. You grow to the place where you will not turn back in an unbelieving rejection of the word of God that saved you (soil #4).

Which is interesting, because the fourth type of soil is soundly rejected in on-line forums as being purely hypothetical and anyone who even suggests they're becoming that kind of soil is a self righteous, sinless perfectionist, 'worker for'. How ironic.

only one of of the types of soils were ever saved, the rest the seed never produced fruit. because it was not rooted in the good soil.

the other 3 types were showing how people can be given the word and not make a proper decision to have true saving faith in christ. (it showed three other possible decisions which did not lead to salvation)

 

[Didymous]

The seed did not stay in the 2nd kind of soil in the Parable of the sower. So we know the seed being imperishable does not mean your soil can't reject it after it's been planted.

Only the person in whom the Word goes down deep and thrives in fruitfulness on the top can make any boast of being irreversibly saved. You grow to the place where you will not turn back in an unbelieving rejection of the word of God that saved you (soil #4).

Which is interesting, because the fourth type of soil is soundly rejected in on-line forums as being purely hypothetical and anyone who even suggests they're becoming that kind of soil is a self righteous, sinless perfectionist, 'worker for'. How ironic.

The seed is the Word of God, and only one kind of soil is a person that believed, so your use of this parable doesn't really apply.