How To Be Un-Saved

[NoNameMcgee]

Be mindful what spirit you're of.

romans 9

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Romans 10
10 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

 

[RickyZ]

Keep your deception and inability to be honest....

You believe salvation can be forfeit and agree with the same drivel that Ralph pushes.....end of story...your little accusations and snide remarks will not change the fact that you were totally dishonest when you answered NO and NO while knowing full well you do not believe in eternal security....if one can walk away and lose it...that does not equal eternal security....

Nice try, but I really thought you were more honorable than that even though we disagree on salvation and the gifts.......

D, D, D...

Sorry I had to step away and do some real-life things. Pretty much all my time here is stolen from other things I should be doing lol.

The point of the whole exercise was to see if you would be able/willing to discern 2 completely different arguments, even tho you would believe both of them were wrong ... as opposed to lumping all arguments together under your preconceived notions. If you did, you would understand that my no answers were not lies or deceptions but an honest no. But, the preconceived notions won out. Like I expected them to, that's the way the world works nowadays. D@mn the actual facts, my mind is made up! Bring on the catchy memes and sound bites!

But, because you were a good sport and at least made a token effort to look up the past posts, I sent $100 to the Children's Burn Foundation in Los Angeles. Good people doing a good job for the kids!

 

[dcontroversal]

D, D, D...

Sorry I had to step away and do some real-life things. Pretty much all my time here is stolen from other things I should be doing lol.

The point of the whole exercise was to see if you would be able/willing to discern 2 completely different arguments, even tho you would believe both of them were wrong ... as opposed to lumping all arguments together under your preconceived notions. If you did, you would understand that my no answers were not lies or deceptions but an honest no. But, the preconceived notions won out. Like I expected them to, that's the way the world works nowadays. D@mn the actual facts, my mind is made up! Bring on the catchy memes and sound bites!

But, because you were a good sport and at least made a token effort to look up the past posts, I sent $100 to the Children's Burn Foundation in Los Angeles. Good people doing a good job for the kids!

Amen bro....and for the record...I have nothing against you whatsoever at all...just saying

 

[RickyZ]

Amen bro....and for the record...I have nothing against you whatsoever at all...just saying

Me neither. I imagine that when we all meet up in heaven we'll all share a big laugh at how silly we were here at CC!

 

[DJ2]

Me neither. I imagine that when we all meet up in heaven we'll all share a big laugh at how silly we were here at CC!

I too have thought the same thing.

 

[Yahshua]

You can post all you want, if you can not own up to what your doing, all you do is make it impossible to communicate.

I seek to simplify. What's interesting is you keep accusing me of assuming you believe one way and yet you continue to say I singularly focused on works only, when in each and every relevant post on the subject I've linked it with faith. That's called psychological projection. But I digress...

no my friend, your the one who does not understand. As i have said a few times, you have some odd fascination with works, and refuse to look at the root or the cause of the works.

Anyway, my response

1. as i said, doing what you did you have to “assume” i believe faith can be seperate from works. Thats wrong and i have asked you numerous times to stop.
2. As I said, they did not enter because the did not have faith, if they had faith they would not have complained, not griped, not asked Arron to creat a golden calf to worship, They continued to live in sin, because they had no faith (did not believ as i said)
3. If they believed, they would have acted like moses, and the others who had true faith, and trusted God, in trusting god, works or fruit would have been the result.

works procede from faith, anyone who has faith will work.

Do i need to explain myself again? Please let me know

Your circular arguing is making my head spin honestly. So if we strip everything down here's what I've read from our exchange so far:

----

With "A" representing "true faith" and "B" representing "acting in obedience" (not just any "works", but "specifically obeying God")...

Me - "I've proven that once all the math is done, A = B. Here's the simplified equation everyone: A = B! So focus on B."

You - "No. A = A, but B is a result of A"

Me - "The result then is A = B and B = A. There's no A without B and no B without A."

You - "No. Stop assuming I believe A and B are separate from each other. A is the root cause of B. You better stop it!"

Me - " Stop what?? Do you agree or disagree that A and B are equal as a result?"

You - "You're so fascinated with B! I'm going to ask you again; stop assuming I'm saying A and B are separate from each other! A = A, but the reason B doesn't exist is because A is not there. If A existed then B would exist. B proceeds from A. A will always result in B. If there's no A, then there's no B. You have it backwards. B is the RESULT OF A. The problem isn't that B doesn't exist, it's that A doesn't exist. Let me know if I need to explained myself again."

----

It's circular arguing.

If I asked, "can a person have true faith in God without acting in obedience to him" I think from all you've written I can safely assume that your answer would be an emphatic "no".

But can a person act in obedience to God without truly trusting or having faith in him? Notice what I asked. Can a person act in perfect obedience to God and yet somehow not trust him completely or not have faith in him at all?

God tells Abraham to leave his home and travel to another land where He will make him a great company of nations from his seed...Abraham leaves in perfect obedience...could Abraham have possibly acted in perfect obedience but completely doubted God would keep his promise if the act of obedience is the "fruit" of trust & faith like you say? I think you would also answer "no, it's impossible", again based on what you've written to me. And I would agree with you. So I don't understand the reason for your disagreement.



Paul writes to the Jews still practicing animal sacrifice after Christ's sacrifice, telling them that they are not showing faith. Were they acting in perfect obedience to God by offering animal sacrifice? Well before Christ the answer would've been "yes"...but after Christ, it's a resounding "NO". Why? Well a shepherd steers his sheep in the direction they should go. Before Christ, the direction was one way, then after Christ the direction changed. A sheep who refuses to change directions is BOTH distrusting AND disobedient to the shepherd.

Christ said, "we shall know them by the fruits they bear. A good tree can't bear bad fruit and a bad tree can't bear good fruit." They can't. It's impossible. Christ also said that a tree that doesn't bear fruit is a useless tree that will be cut down (Matthew 7:9). He also said that a branch in him that doesn't bear fruit will be removed, implying that a branch can ACTUALLY be truly connected to him but not do the work. Christ insinuates that it's indeed possible (John 15:2). This notion that a branch that's not bearing good fruit was never truly connected by faith to the vine - as some others have claimed many times - completely goes against Christ's words in John 15:2.


"He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful."


You're arguing with me constantly about which comes first: the fruit or connection to the vine. Meanwhile I'm telling folks here, that because the branches are connected to the vine as one, focus on bearing fruit as that's our job.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

I seek to simplify. What's interesting is you keep accusing me of assuming you believe one way and yet you continue to say I singularly focused on works only, when in each and every relevant post on the subject I've linked it with faith. That's called psychological projection. But I digress...



Your circular arguing is making my head spin honestly. So if we strip everything down here's what I've read from our exchange so far:

----

With "A" representing "true faith" and "B" representing "acting in obedience" (not just any "works", but "specifically obeying God")...

Me - "I've proven that once all the math is done, A = B. Here's the simplified equation everyone: A = B! So focus on B."

You - "No. A = A, but B is a result of A"

Me - "The result then is A = B and B = A. There's no A without B and no B without A."

You - "No. Stop assuming I believe A and B are separate from each other. A is the root cause of B. You better stop it!"

Me - " Stop what?? Do you agree or disagree that A and B are equal as a result?"

You - "You're so fascinated with B! I'm going to ask you again; stop assuming I'm saying A and B are separate from each other! A = A, but the reason B doesn't exist is because A is not there. If A existed then B would exist. B proceeds from A. A will always result in B. If there's no A, then there's no B. You have it backwards. B is the RESULT OF A. The problem isn't that B doesn't exist, it's that A doesn't exist. Let me know if I need to explained myself again."

----

It's circular arguing.

If I asked, "can a person have true faith in God without acting in obedience to him" I think from all you've written I can safely assume that your answer would be an emphatic "no".

But can a person act in obedience to God without truly trusting or having faith in him? Notice what I asked. Can a person act in perfect obedience to God and yet somehow not trust him completely or not have faith in him at all?

God tells Abraham to leave his home and travel to another land where He will make him a great company of nations from his seed...Abraham leaves in perfect obedience...could Abraham have possibly acted in perfect obedience but completely doubted God would keep his promise if the act of obedience is the "fruit" of trust & faith like you say? I think you would also answer "no, it's impossible", again based on what you've written to me. And I would agree with you. So I don't understand the reason for your disagreement.



Paul writes to the Jews still practicing animal sacrifice after Christ's sacrifice, telling them that they are not showing faith. Were they acting in perfect obedience to God by offering animal sacrifice? Well before Christ the answer would've been "yes"...but after Christ, it's a resounding "NO". Why? Well a shepherd steers his sheep in the direction they should go. Before Christ, the direction was one way, then after Christ the direction changed. A sheep who refuses to change directions is BOTH distrusting AND disobedient to the shepherd.

Christ said, "we shall know them by the fruits they bear. A good tree can't bear bad fruit and a bad tree can't bear good fruit." They can't. It's impossible. Christ also said that a tree that doesn't bear fruit is a useless tree that will be cut down (Matthew 7:9). He also said that a branch in him that doesn't bear fruit will be removed, implying that a branch can ACTUALLY be truly connected to him but not do the work. Christ insinuates that it's indeed possible (John 15:2). This notion that a branch that's not bearing good fruit was never truly connected by faith to the vine - as some others have claimed many times - completely goes against Christ's words in John 15:2.


"He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful."


You're arguing with me constantly about which comes first: the fruit or connection to the vine. Meanwhile I'm telling folks here, that because the branches are connected to the vine as one, focus on bearing fruit as that's our job.

luke 13

6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.

7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?

8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:

9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.


this has nothing to do with a born again believer losing salvation

or fruit earning salvation

this

much like james

points to a dead faith (someone with knowledge of... but no new heart.. no new spirit... dead faith)

all of His trees will have fruit....

matthew 13


3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:

6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:

8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.



it is NOT about the number of fruit

it is about being rooted in Christ

once His seed takes root

youre saved BEFORE fruit
BEFORE works

unto these things


you cannot add works to His imputed righteousness for the cause of salvation



to say His children (born again believer He has made new)
can lose salvation is a lie

false gospel


to say your works go side by side with His sacrifice in order to save yourself

is a lie

and a false gospel

 

[Yahshua]

luke 13

6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.

7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?

8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:

9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.


this has nothing to do with a born again believer losing salvation

or fruit earning salvation

this

much like james

points to a dead faith (someone with knowledge of... but no new heart.. no new spirit... dead faith)

all of His trees will have fruit....

matthew 13


3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:

6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:

8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.



it is NOT about the number of fruit

it is about being rooted in Christ

once His seed takes root

youre saved BEFORE fruit
BEFORE works

unto these things


you cannot add works to His imputed righteousness

You're misunderstanding the order of operation.

Step 1) Imputed righteousness = Grafting the branch into the vine.

Step 2) Receipt of the Holy Spirit, rooted in Christ = Branch receiving the sap; abiding in the vine.

Step 3) Good works = Branch bearing fruit.

We're discussing step 3, not step 1. All of this time I've been posting about step 3, not step 1. And it's step 3 that's not automatic.


John 15:2
"He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful."

^ From this passage, before it's cut off, is the fruitless branch in Christ or not?

Also, what does "cut off" mean in context?

 

[BillG]

Me neither. I imagine that when we all meet up in heaven we'll all share a big laugh at how silly we were here at CC!

I too have thought the same thing.

And you both can call me "silly Billy"

 

[NoNameMcgee]

You're misunderstanding the order of operation.

Step 1) Imputed righteousness = Grafting the branch into the vine.

Step 2) Receipt of the Holy Spirit, rooted in Christ = Branch receiving the sap; abiding in the vine.

Step 3) Good works = Branch bearing fruit.

We're discussing step 3, not step 1. All of this time I've been posting about step 3, not step 1. And it's step 3 that's not automatic.


John 15:2
"He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful."

^ From this passage, before it's cut off, is the fruitless branch in Christ or not?

Also, what does "cut off" mean in context?

john 15
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

____________

romans 1
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient.
______________


hebrews 10


38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.


it would appear to men
that these who "are cut off"
or are "given over"

had faith and lost it
or had no works

but God sees the heart

also we are not of these men

and they were not of us

1 john 2

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.


what youre misunderstanding is Gods character.....
He keeps His children safe

never did i say good works are automatic
thats a strawman

and
FIRST we are saved when we are made new...
then we live by faith



you can argue over as many "steps" as youd like

what im sharing is the gospel and truth

 

[NoNameMcgee]

luke 13

6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.

7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?

8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:

9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.


this has nothing to do with a born again believer losing salvation

or fruit earning salvation

this

much like james

points to a dead faith (someone with knowledge of... but no new heart.. no new spirit... dead faith)

all of His trees will have fruit....

matthew 13


3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:

6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:

8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.



it is NOT about the number of fruit

it is about being rooted in Christ

once His seed takes root

youre saved BEFORE fruit
BEFORE works

unto these things


you cannot add works to His imputed righteousness for the cause of salvation



to say His children (born again believer He has made new)
can lose salvation is a lie

false gospel


to say your works go side by side with His sacrifice in order to save yourself

is a lie

and a false gospel

John 6:37
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

everyone

guilty of even 1 sin
is going to hell

this is just


but God is not only just

He is loving
and has an abundance of mercy

when Jesus died on the cross
this was a sacrifice in which
He payed for every sin of the WHOLE world....

so that those who believe on Him can be seen as sinless as He is


those who are born again

are adopted children

every single sin is covered by the blood of Jesus
(all glory goes to Him)

and we who have sinned but been born again

will have the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ

our Lord and savior

we are justified by His righteousness

Romans 5:19

“For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”


praise God

Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

The will of the Father

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
These men believe in their "wonderful works" to save them... not Jesus

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Because they have not submitted to His righteousness they will still have the sins they commit to answer for




__________


will of the Father?

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day

one last post

i hope this isnt too long winded my friend


romans 9

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


Romans 10
10 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth




may God bless you

heres a bump for you yash



notice those in matthew
who claim they are in Him
call Him Lord

and boast of works

He NEVER knew.....

of course He knows OF them

but he didnt deeply KNOW them

like a groom would know a bride

once we are adopted sons...

we are saved

dont be like those in matthew
those in romans who look to what they do for their assurance

and not His promises

 

[NoNameMcgee]

whoops meant to also add after "a groom would know a bride"

like our Father knows His children

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I seek to simplify. What's interesting is you keep accusing me of assuming you believe one way and yet you continue to say I singularly focused on works only, when in each and every relevant post on the subject I've linked it with faith. That's called psychological projection. But I digress...

every post you make is full of works. It does not matter if you say the word faith or not. You can not leave the works alone. The root of your salvation is works. Not faith.

And you still refuse to acknowledge what you have said about us and refuse to repent. Then again, I have come to expect that from certain people who focus on works.

Your circular arguing is making my head spin honestly. So if we strip everything down here's what I've read from our exchange so far:

----

With "A" representing "true faith" and "B" representing "acting in obedience" (not just any "works", but "specifically obeying God")...

Me - "I've proven that once all the math is done, A = B. Here's the simplified equation everyone: A = B! So focus on B."

You - "No. A = A, but B is a result of A"

Me - "The result then is A = B and B = A. There's no A without B and no B without A."

You - "No. Stop assuming I believe A and B are separate from each other. A is the root cause of B. You better stop it!"

Me - " Stop what?? Do you agree or disagree that A and B are equal as a result?"

You - "You're so fascinated with B! I'm going to ask you again; stop assuming I'm saying A and B are separate from each other! A = A, but the reason B doesn't exist is because A is not there. If A existed then B would exist. B proceeds from A. A will always result in B. If there's no A, then there's no B. You have it backwards. B is the RESULT OF A. The problem isn't that B doesn't exist, it's that A doesn't exist. Let me know if I need to explained myself again."

See, you still do not get it. You think your right, and everyone else is wrong, and you think you know what others are saying, and you will never admit you may be wrong.

See in reality we have A - true saving faith vs B - lack of true saving faith (he who believes is not condemned, he who does not believe is condemned already, works are not part of the equation of what makes a person saved)

Here, let me help you.

Me, The root of salvation or lack of is the saved person is rooted in faith, The unsaved person is rooted in unbelief (no works are involved in either case)

You. No, One must have faith plus works. The people of Isreal did not enter the promised land because they did nto have works.

Me, No. One must have faith, one is saved BEFORE they do one work. The people of Isreal did not enter because they did not have faith.

You want to focus on works. I want to focus on the ROOT cause of the problem.

after salvation is granted (because of true faith) then we can add C (works or acts of obedience) which is actually called sanctification of the believer who is producing fruit (works) which everyone who is saved because of faith will produce because they are new creatures created in christ (eph 2: 10)

When we are talking about salvation, Either how we are saved, or maintaining it or not losing it Biblical. Works are not part of the equation. Fatih or lack of faith are the ONLY contributing factors.

Works are factors of SANCTIFICATION, which we are not discussing thus they shoudl be left for another topic

----

It's circular arguing.

Its not even reasoning, because it is not what is happening, but you can not see that, because you will not open up and see what is actually being discussed.

If I asked, "can a person have true faith in God without acting in obedience to him" I think from all you've written I can safely assume that your answer would be an emphatic "no".

I would say God is the judge, I do not know what the person has done. Who am I to judge? who are you to Judge?

But that is not even the issue, Was the person saved when he had faith, or did he have to wait till after he did works, and can lack of works in the future cause him to lose salvation.

Thats the issue.

But can a person act in obedience to God without truly trusting or having faith in him?

Can a person produce fruit? No. Can he work? yes, Israel did works of the law. How well did it help them.

Notice what I asked. Can a person act in perfect obedience to God and yet somehow not trust him completely or not have faith in him at all?

God tells Abraham to leave his home and travel to another land where He will make him a great company of nations from his seed...Abraham leaves in perfect obedience...could Abraham have possibly acted in perfect obedience but completely doubted God would keep his promise if the act of obedience is the "fruit" of trust & faith like you say? I think you would also answer "no, it's impossible", again based on what you've written to me. And I would agree with you. So I don't understand the reason for your disagreement.

Abraham was found righteous because he believed in God. NOT because he did works..

What part of that is hard for you to understand?

I am talking about how one is saved or how one gets to heaven, Not how one is sanctified, can you seperate the two?

Paul writes to the Jews still practicing animal sacrifice after Christ's sacrifice, telling them that they are not showing faith. Were they acting in perfect obedience to God by offering animal sacrifice? Well before Christ the answer would've been "yes"...but after Christ, it's a resounding "NO". Why? Well a shepherd steers his sheep in the direction they should go. Before Christ, the direction was one way, then after Christ the direction changed. A sheep who refuses to change directions is BOTH distrusting AND disobedient to the shepherd.

People were doing sacrifice because that is what they had faith in, If they had faith in God and the work of Christ as the fulfillment of the animal sacrifice. they would not be continuing to live in sin.

They lived in sin (sacrifice) because of unbelief.

its not rocket science

Christ said, "we shall know them by the fruits they bear. A good tree can't bear bad fruit and a bad tree can't bear good fruit." They can't. It's impossible. Christ also said that a tree that doesn't bear fruit is a useless tree that will be cut down (Matthew 7:9). He also said that a branch in him that doesn't bear fruit will be removed, implying that a branch can ACTUALLY be truly connected to him but not do the work. Christ insinuates that it's indeed possible (John 15:2). This notion that a branch that's not bearing good fruit was never truly connected by faith to the vine - as some others have claimed many times - completely goes against Christ's words in John 15:2.


"He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful."

the word in John 15 mans to lift up. It is a well known situation in which branches which do not produce fruit are lifted up and taken off the ground, when this happen, the branch starts to produce fruit again.

The ones which are already producing fruit, He prunes, so they can produce more fruit.

Your so focused on being a fruit inspector. you do not realize it is God who does the work. He lifts us up when are are not producing fruit so we can produce fruit, He prunes us when we are working so we can work more (this is a process known as sanctification, which again, is not the topic of our discussion)

You're arguing with me constantly about which comes first: the fruit or connection to the vine. Meanwhile I'm telling folks here, that because the branches are connected to the vine as one, focus on bearing fruit as that's our job.

Yes, Thank you, You just showed what I have been saying, Your being a fruit inspector. instead of talking about what it is which is the foundation for all works.

No. My job is not to inspect you to see if you are producing fruit, My purpose is to serve you. and take care of your needs. To be used of God to not judge you, but to help in your sanctification process (if your saved) if your not saved, I need to focus on being a light, and sharing the gospel so maybe perhaps you can become saved. If your a religious person stuck in legalism, my wish is to give you the opportunity to be freed, like I was a little over a decade ago. So you can find true rest in Christ. and find true power to grow.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

by the way, just to add to my last post.

A vine can not attach itself to a tree any more than You can not attach yourself to Christ.

A vine can not produce do the work of growing fruit apart from the tree, any more than you can do works which produce fruit apart form Christ

 

[dcontroversal]

luke 13

6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.

7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?

8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:

9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.


this has nothing to do with a born again believer losing salvation

or fruit earning salvation

this

much like james

points to a dead faith (someone with knowledge of... but no new heart.. no new spirit... dead faith)

all of His trees will have fruit....

matthew 13


3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:

6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:

8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.



it is NOT about the number of fruit

it is about being rooted in Christ

once His seed takes root

youre saved BEFORE fruit
BEFORE works

unto these things


you cannot add works to His imputed righteousness for the cause of salvation



to say His children (born again believer He has made new)
can lose salvation is a lie

false gospel


to say your works go side by side with His sacrifice in order to save yourself

is a lie

and a false gospel

You have come a long way grasshopper....and it is good to see your sword is sharp as..........all who scream WORKS will also scream WORKS in the day of judgment.........that pair of deuces will not make the grade and or win the pot......it is a losing hand that leads to the pit.......

What a tragic day for the workers for...LORD, LORD, (sobbing and begging) did we not do many wonderful works in your name......please LORD, please let us enter we did this and that in your name...(more sobbing and begging as they are taken to the pit) JESUS states....I NEVER KNEW YOU, DEPART FROM ME YOU WORKER of INIQUITY (still found in their sins because they attempted a working for DOOR).................tragic day indeed.......!

 

[Troubled65]

Notice that Paul said to "work out" your salvation in Philippians 2:12 and not "work for" your salvation.n When we "work out" at the gym, we exercise to develop our body that we already have and not to get a
b
o
dy. Farmers "work" the land, not in order to get the land, but to develop the land they already have. The Greek verb rendered "work out" means "to continually work to bring something to completion or fruition." We do this by actively pursuing the process of ongoing sanctification, which is the result of being set apart for God's work and involves the process of being conformed to the image of Christ. This conforming to Christ involves the work of the person, but it is still God working in the believer (vs. 13) to produce more of a godly character and life in the person who has already been justified by faith.

Ongoing sanctification has no bearing on justification. That is, even if we don't live a sinless, perfect life (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ (Romans 5:1). Where justification is a legal declaration that is instantaneous, ongoing sanctification is an ongoing process. Philippians 2:12 is often misused to instill fear into people, warning them that it means that they can lose salvation. Paul can hardly be encouraging believers to live in a continuous condition of nervousness and anxiety. That would contradict his many other exhortations to peace of mind, courage, and confidence in Christ who is the author and finisher of our faith.

The Greek word translated "fear" in this context can equally mean "reverence" or "respect." Paul uses the same phrase in (2 Corinthians 7:15) where he refers to Titus as being encouraged by the Corinthians’ reception of him “with fear and trembling,” that is, with great humility and respect for his position as a minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Paul himself came to the Corinthian church in “weakness and fear, and with much trembling” (1 Corinthians 2:3), mindful of the great and awesome nature of the work in which he was engaged.

Well said. Thank you for posting this. This is an excellent analagy. God wants us to grow! Amen!

 

[Yahshua]

every post you make is full of works. It does not matter if you say the word faith or not. You can not leave the works alone. The root of your salvation is works. Not faith.


And you still refuse to acknowledge what you have said about us and refuse to repent. Then again, I have come to expect that from certain people who focus on works.

Every post I make is about what scripture says not about what tradition or religion says. You still haven't pointed out - shown me - what I've actually said about you and yet want me to repent for it. You've even told me you're *not* going to show me what I've said about you but want me to still confess and then repent for it anyway. Meanwhile you clearly are guilty of doing the very thing you're accusing me of (note the portion in red). And you don't see something wrong with that? It's not even how we're instructed to handle such matters in scripture, old or new testament.

So until you point it out and show me where I've sinned against you (like you're guilty of in red) you're levying a false accusation against me...which only serves to discredit you and give validity what else I've said.

See, you still do not get it. You think your right, and everyone else is wrong, and you think you know what others are saying, and you will never admit you may be wrong.

Admitting whether one is right or wrong comes after argument and after all proof is considered.

See in reality we have A - true saving faith vs B - lack of true saving faith (he who believes is not condemned, he who does not believe is condemned already, works are not part of the equation of what makes a person saved)

Here, let me help you.

Me, The root of salvation or lack of is the saved person is rooted in faith, The unsaved person is rooted in unbelief (no works are involved in either case)

You. No, One must have faith plus works. The people of Israel did not enter the promised land because they did nto have works.

Me, No. One must have faith, one is saved BEFORE they do one work. The people of Isreal did not enter because they did not have faith.

You want to focus on works. I want to focus on the ROOT cause of the problem.

Wrong. Once again I've caught you in changing what I've said. You will find nowhere in all of my posts where I've said the portion in red above. I have NEVER added faith & works together for salvation. Even look at my very last post here and you'll see that. It's what I've called step 1 in context to that post as opposed to step 3. This is where you're being dishonest. We're not talking about attaining salvation on this thread at all. We're talking about what gets a person "cut off" (i.e. UN-SAVED), and if it's possible.

after salvation is granted (because of true faith) then we can add C (works or acts of obedience) which is actually called sanctification of the believer who is producing fruit (works) which everyone who is saved because of faith will produce because they are new creatures created in christ (eph 2: 10)

Incorrect. ^THIS portion in red is what I've been challenging currently. Scripture does not agree with that, even your own cited passage doesn't agree with the portion in red above.

Ephesians 2:10 (kjv)
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Ephesians 2:10 (NIV)
10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.


...good works ordained that we should walk in. Good works prepared in advance for us to do. We. Us. God doesn't do them for us. He pre-established a list (if you will) of good works to do, prepares us to do them, and then WE are required to do them. The works aren't automatic, they were prepared; made ready for us to do.

When we are talking about salvation, Either how we are saved, or maintaining it or not losing it Biblical. Works are not part of the equation. Fatih or lack of faith are the ONLY contributing factors.

Incorrect again. You can not lump "how we are saved" and "losing salvation" together as if both are a matter of faith. That's not scriptural either. How we are saved is a matter of faith...but how we lose it is a different matter altogether.

- To Christ's Ephesus Church (Revelation 2), he says he see their works; to repent else he'll remove their lampstand. What does remove lampstand mean if the lampstand is the church itself?

- To Christ's Pergamum Church (Revelation 2), he says repent else he'll war with them with the sword of his mouth. What does war mean? What is the sword from Christ's mouth recorded as doing in Revelation?

- To Christ's Thyatira Church (Revelation 2), he says he sees their works; he will repay everyone according to their works.

- To Christ's Sardis Church (Revelation 3), he says he knows their works; found their works incomplete; they are dead; repent or he will blot them out. How can their works be incomplete if works aren't the believer's responsibility to do? This is basic language that requires no explanation. What does blot out means? And why will they be blotted out because of their works? This is one of HIS CHURCHES he's saying this to.

- To Christ's Philadelphia Church (Revelation 3), he says he knows their works; that he knows they have little strength but to hold fast so no one steals their crown. What is the crown in context? Why did he mention their strength if it's all God's doing?

- To Christ's Laodicea Church (Revelation 3), he says he knows their works; that they are lukewarm they will be spit out. What does it mean for Christ to spit one of his churches out of him? Were they in him? Why is he warning them if they were never a part of him?

Why warn ANY of these churches if none of the churches are responsible for their works?

Works are factors of SANCTIFICATION, which we are not discussing thus they shoudl be left for another topic



Its not even reasoning, because it is not what is happening, but you can not see that, because you will not open up and see what is actually being discussed.



I would say God is the judge, I do not know what the person has done. Who am I to judge? who are you to Judge?

But that is not even the issue, Was the person saved when he had faith, or did he have to wait till after he did works, and can lack of works in the future cause him to lose salvation.

Thats the issue.



Can a person produce fruit? No. Can he work? yes, Israel did works of the law. How well did it help them.



Abraham was found righteous because he believed in God. NOT because he did works..

What part of that is hard for you to understand?

I am talking about how one is saved or how one gets to heaven, Not how one is sanctified, can you seperate the two?

Then why are you even replying to me on this thread at all? This thread ISN'T about how one is first saved. This is about a subject after that.

People were doing sacrifice because that is what they had faith in, If they had faith in God and the work of Christ as the fulfillment of the animal sacrifice. they would not be continuing to live in sin.

They lived in sin (sacrifice) because of unbelief.

its not rocket science


the word in John 15 mans to lift up. It is a well known situation in which branches which do not produce fruit are lifted up and taken off the ground, when this happen, the branch starts to produce fruit again.

The ones which are already producing fruit, He prunes, so they can produce more fruit.

Your so focused on being a fruit inspector. you do not realize it is God who does the work. He lifts us up when are are not producing fruit so we can produce fruit, He prunes us when we are working so we can work more (this is a process known as sanctification, which again, is not the topic of our discussion)

It absolutely does not mean to lift up to take off the ground (regarding your potion in red). You can't think to make that stretch from even an agricultural standpoint. The word Greek used; it's "airo", which means "to lift up in order to take away" as in *snapped* off or picked off because the branch is considered dead because it did not produce any fruit.

Yes, Thank you, You just showed what I have been saying, Your being a fruit inspector. instead of talking about what it is which is the foundation for all works.

No. My job is not to inspect you to see if you are producing fruit, My purpose is to serve you. and take care of your needs. To be used of God to not judge you, but to help in your sanctification process (if your saved) if your not saved, I need to focus on being a light, and sharing the gospel so maybe perhaps you can become saved. If your a religious person stuck in legalism, my wish is to give you the opportunity to be freed, like I was a little over a decade ago. So you can find true rest in Christ. and find true power to grow.

1 Corinthians 3:6-9
6 I planted the seed and Apollos watered it, but God made it grow.

7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow.

8 He who plants and he who waters are one in purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor.

9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.


Not sure what exactly you believe the job entails then as a worker of God's harvest. But the lord did say that "the harvest is plenty, but the workers are few" (Matthew 9:37).

 

[Yahshua]

by the way, just to add to my last post.

A vine can not attach itself to a tree any more than You can not attach yourself to Christ.

A vine can not produce do the work of growing fruit apart from the tree, any more than you can do works which produce fruit apart form Christ

Well your analogy doesn't follow at all because Christ is the vine, we are the branches. We are the tree.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

well yash

if you dont believe works go together with faith for salvation

that is good



it is by grace through faith we are saved

praise God


but do you believe an adopted son or daughter of God can lose his salvation based on his or her works?

(in which case... works would still be the basis for your salvation)


i ask this because it seems like you are saying the works of man keep him saved to me