I refuse to discount one scripture's truth to accept another.

[Blain]

Hi Charli I know the history of such topics like this very well but you should not feel unsafe to speak and discuss them because of that, I mean to understand the God's truth and to grow as both believers and people in general such debates and discussions are needed and should not be avoided from fear of what it will turn into. Besides so far it seems to be pretty civil and educational.
To be honest I never even took into account that predestination could be pointed to the office of a person rather than the salvation of the person, it certainly expands my own understanding and view of predestination and perhaps we have been too focused on the salvation aspect of predestination instead of turning our view to the calling or office of a person.

It certainly makes these verse make more sense to me

Galatians 1:15
But when God, who set me apart from my mother's womb and called me by His grace, was pleased

Psalm 139:15
My frame was not hidden from You when I was made in secret, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.

Psalm 139:16
Your eyes saw my unformed body; all my days were written in Your book and ordained for me before one of them came to be.

 

[Deade]

I definitely get why you wrestle the notion of predestination for hell, like Proverbs 16:4. I get it 100% because that notion contradicts a God of Love and of Mercy. So you get why I am open to further understanding, while I cling to Jeremiah 15:16. I think we are all called, and created to love and serve Him, but where I go tilt is thinking He would give the gift of Himself to only those He created to choose Him, when He created us all for His pleasure. His will is that we all be saved. Somewhere my own confusion is misguided, so I continue to grow and learn, leaning on my Father, my Lord, and my Savior.

Our version of hell where a soul burns forever is a construct of the Middle-Ages. Christianity had long since been hijacked by the Romans starting with Constantine. Very little truth of what God is really doing with mankind made it way into the Protestant Reformation. In fact, they carried on with most of the RCC traditions instead of starting over like they should have.

Romans 6:23 says the wages of sin is death. Not everlasting life in flames. Death is death, you cease to be. But God is not yet done with all the unsaved masses. He certainly is not going to allow them to be tortured forever because they couldn't quite make the grade. All those that condemn another to hell are doing it on their own. God will share with us what His plans are, but we must make sure we are listening to the right spirit.

"See, I have appointed you this day over the nations and over the kingdoms, To pluck up and to break down, To destroy and to overthrow, To build and to plant." (Jer. 1:10)

About this verse: where do you suppose the last part about "to build and plant" took place?

 

[pottersclay]

This is what I believe. There are no elect as in certain people are choosen and certain ones not.

choose today whom you will serve. Blessings and cursing,. there are 2 paths.

I believe that God has blessed, purposed, ordained those who call upon his name to be saved.

There are those who refuse to come to the light because they feel their deeds will be punished.

There are those who are enemies of God.

And there are those who are blinded by Satan.

Everyone on this planet are covered by grace from the Lord in one measure or another for their very breath comes from the Lord.
Didn't God put a mark on Cain to protect him?

Jesus said something that should spike a concern on those who believe in the elect doctrine.
"What good is it to love only the ones that love you?" Wouldn't God be guilty of this??

 

[CharliRenee]

I smell an old horse corpse.

Hahaha...Rut roh, I sprayed tons of frabreeze too. Oh mannnn

 

[CharliRenee]

Our version of hell where a soul burns forever is a construct of the Middle-Ages. Christianity had long since been hijacked by the Romans starting with Constantine. Very little truth of what God is really doing with mankind made it way into the Protestant Reformation. In fact, they carried on with most of the RCC traditions instead of starting over like they should have.

Romans 6:23 says the wages of sin is death. Not everlasting life in flames. Death is death, you cease to be. But God is not yet done with all the unsaved masses. He certainly is not going to allow them to be tortured forever because they couldn't quite make the grade. All those that condemn another to hell are doing it on their own. God will share with us what His plans are, but we must make sure we are listening to the right spirit.



About this verse: where do you suppose the last part about "to build and plant" took place?

You tell me, I'm not sure. I'm thinking all of us should sow the word, plant the see, right?

 

[CharliRenee]

Hi Charli I know the history of such topics like this very well but you should not feel unsafe to speak and discuss them because of that, I mean to understand the God's truth and to grow as both believers and people in general such debates and discussions are needed and should not be avoided from fear of what it will turn into. Besides so far it seems to be pretty civil and educational.
To be honest I never even took into account that predestination could be pointed to the office of a person rather than the salvation of the person, it certainly expands my own understanding and view of predestination and perhaps we have been too focused on the salvation aspect of predestination instead of turning our view to the calling or office of a person.

It certainly makes these verse make more sense to me

Galatians 1:15
But when God, who set me apart from my mother's womb and called me by His grace, was pleased

Psalm 139:15
My frame was not hidden from You when I was made in secret, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.

Psalm 139:16
Your eyes saw my unformed body; all my days were written in Your book and ordained for me before one of them came to be.

Yeah, I think until I can find harmony in all the scriptures, I will continue to beat that horse. But Blain, I do feel the HS with the help of brothers and sisters are helping get some clarity. I do think He is speaking of His children and of Jesus and of the Jesus in us, His people. We all agree He predestined the priest, prophets, judges, kings, still does. I think they are selected to help save the masses but that we were all created to have fellowship with Him, to love and serve Him. The ones that He forenew would accept, He predestined and justified.

 

[CharliRenee]

This is what I believe. There are no elect as in certain people are choosen and certain ones not.

choose today whom you will serve. Blessings and cursing,. there are 2 paths.

I believe that God has blessed, purposed, ordained those who call upon his name to be saved.

There are those who refuse to come to the light because they feel their deeds will be punished.

There are those who are enemies of God.

And there are those who are blinded by Satan.

Everyone on this planet are covered by grace from the Lord in one measure or another for their very breath comes from the Lord.
Didn't God put a mark on Cain to protect him?

Jesus said something that should spike a concern on those who believe in the elect doctrine.
"What good is it to love only the ones that love you?" Wouldn't God be guilty of this??

This made a lot of sense...

What good is it to love only the ones that love you?" Wouldn't God be guilty of this??

 

[CharliRenee]

Our version of hell where a soul burns forever is a construct of the Middle-Ages. Christianity had long since been hijacked by the Romans starting with Constantine. Very little truth of what God is really doing with mankind made it way into the Protestant Reformation. In fact, they carried on with most of the RCC traditions instead of starting over like they should have.

Romans 6:23 says the wages of sin is death. Not everlasting life in flames. Death is death, you cease to be. But God is not yet done with all the unsaved masses. He certainly is not going to allow them to be tortured forever because they couldn't quite make the grade. All those that condemn another to hell are doing it on their own. God will share with us what His plans are, but we must make sure we are listening to the right spirit.



About this verse: where do you suppose the last part about "to build and plant" took place?

It sure makes it easier to download thinking the second death = cease to be. I like it and can see it, in some verses but this is another hot topic I'm studying so I'm still open. My daddy was a preacher for a little old fashioned country church and it wasnt until the last 7 years that I really started digging in the word for myself.

 

[prove-all]

About this verse: where do you suppose the last part about "to build and plant" took place?

That would take a couple of pages to explain.
A full study of Jeremiah and other books, and history.

The house of Israel, the northern kingdom whose capital was Samaria,
was driven into Assyrian captivity, 721-718 b.c.

God had continued to keep His covenant with David. David’s dynasty had
continued on the throne over part of the Israelites—the house of Judah—the Jews.

His covenant promise to David that David’s dynasty should never cease—that David’s
throne was established [in Solomon] to continue through all generations forever.

“And the [Eternal] said, I will remove Judah also out of my sight, as I have removed Israel,
and will cast off this city Jerusalem which I have chosen, and the house of which I said,
My name shall be there” (2 Kings 23:27).

130 years after Israel’s captivity, the time came when God caused the Jews also to be
driven out of their land in national captivity and slavery.


Jeremiah’s Strange Commission: The Bible mentions three men only who were sanctified
for their respective offices before they were born—and of these three Jeremiah was the first.
The other two were John the Baptist and Jesus Christ!

“See,” said God, “I have set you this day over nations and over kingdoms, to pluck up
and to break down, to destroy and to overthrow, to build and to plant” (verses 9-10).

the Authorized Version: “to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down,
to build, and to plant.” Jeremiah was set over nations—more than one kingdom.

Jeremiah was used in warning Judah of the impending captivity, and the “pulling down”
or “overthrowing” of the throne of David in the kingdom of Judah.

The last and final king recorded on the throne of David was King Zedekiah of Judah.
God told Jeremiah , “Thus saith the Lord, Write ye this man childless,
a man that shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper,
sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah”!

God was going to remove the crown of David from the ruling line of Pharez
uprooted from Judah, and place it on the head of a son of Zarah.

Jeremiah had now accomplished the first part of his great commission.
Jeremiah went to Mizpah (Jeremiah 41:10) Among these Jews were the king’s daughters!
Daughters of Zedekiah, king of Judah, and of David’s dynasty!

Jeremiah the prophet, and Baruch the son of Neriah [Jeremiah’s scribe, or secretary].
and the king’s daughters (Jeremiah 43:5-7)

“Thus saith the Lord, the God of Israel, unto thee, O Baruch?.… Behold, that which I have
built will I break down, and that which I have planted I will pluck up, even this whole land.
But thy life will I give unto thee for a prey in all places whither thou goest” (Jer 45:2-5).
Baruch’s life, like Jeremiah’s, was under divine protection!

“For out of Jerusalem shall go forth a remnant, and they that escape out of mount Zion:
the zeal of the Lord of hosts shall do this. And the remnant that is escaped of the house
of Judah shall again take root downward, and bear fruit upward” (Isaiah 37:32, 31).
This same prophecy is found also in 2 Kings 19:30-31.

Long story short

Jeremiah started his commision when he was young, and he was old and gray by the time
it was done. A legend of a princess Tea Tephi, Baruch a scribe, and an old saint in Ireland.

Is there a King or Queen still sitting on the Throne of Judah?
http://originofnations.org/Royals/queens descent/The Queen's Royal Descent from King David of Judah.htm

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

That would take a couple of pages to explain.
A full study of Jeremiah and other books, and history.

The house of Israel, the northern kingdom whose capital was Samaria,
was driven into Assyrian captivity, 721-718 b.c.

God had continued to keep His covenant with David. David’s dynasty had
continued on the throne over part of the Israelites—the house of Judah—the Jews.

His covenant promise to David that David’s dynasty should never cease—that David’s
throne was established [in Solomon] to continue through all generations forever.

“And the [Eternal] said, I will remove Judah also out of my sight, as I have removed Israel,
and will cast off this city Jerusalem which I have chosen, and the house of which I said,
My name shall be there” (2 Kings 23:27).

130 years after Israel’s captivity, the time came when God caused the Jews also to be
driven out of their land in national captivity and slavery.


Jeremiah’s Strange Commission: The Bible mentions three men only who were sanctified
for their respective offices before they were born—and of these three Jeremiah was the first.
The other two were John the Baptist and Jesus Christ!

“See,” said God, “I have set you this day over nations and over kingdoms, to pluck up
and to break down, to destroy and to overthrow, to build and to plant” (verses 9-10).

the Authorized Version: “to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down,
to build, and to plant.” Jeremiah was set over nations—more than one kingdom.

Jeremiah was used in warning Judah of the impending captivity, and the “pulling down”
or “overthrowing” of the throne of David in the kingdom of Judah.

The last and final king recorded on the throne of David was King Zedekiah of Judah.
God told Jeremiah , “Thus saith the Lord, Write ye this man childless,
a man that shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper,
sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah”!

God was going to remove the crown of David from the ruling line of Pharez
uprooted from Judah, and place it on the head of a son of Zarah.

Jeremiah had now accomplished the first part of his great commission.
Jeremiah went to Mizpah (Jeremiah 41:10) Among these Jews were the king’s daughters!
Daughters of Zedekiah, king of Judah, and of David’s dynasty!

Jeremiah the prophet, and Baruch the son of Neriah [Jeremiah’s scribe, or secretary].
and the king’s daughters (Jeremiah 43:5-7)

“Thus saith the Lord, the God of Israel, unto thee, O Baruch?.… Behold, that which I have
built will I break down, and that which I have planted I will pluck up, even this whole land.
But thy life will I give unto thee for a prey in all places whither thou goest” (Jer 45:2-5).
Baruch’s life, like Jeremiah’s, was under divine protection!

“For out of Jerusalem shall go forth a remnant, and they that escape out of mount Zion:
the zeal of the Lord of hosts shall do this. And the remnant that is escaped of the house
of Judah shall again take root downward, and bear fruit upward” (Isaiah 37:32, 31).
This same prophecy is found also in 2 Kings 19:30-31.

Long story short

Jeremiah started his commision when he was young, and he was old and gray by the time
it was done. A legend of a princess Tea Tephi, Baruch a scribe, and an old saint in Ireland.

Is there a King or Queen still sitting on the Throne of Judah?
http://originofnations.org/Royals/queens descent/The Queen's Royal Descent from King David of Judah.htm

This is British-Israelism founded by Herbert W. Armstrong.

http://originofnations.org/

Armstrong is the founder of the Worldwide Church of God.

Apparently the group as a whole rejected the original teachings of Armstrong but has retained the heretical view that Israel ceased to fit into God's plans and that the church is now the heir of all the covenants with Abraham and David.

Any idea that there is a present king of Israel living in Britain is absurd.

 

[JaumeJ]

An eye for and eye and a tooth for a tooth.
Turn the other cheek.

You accept both? Believe Jesus Christ and you will know the truth and the Truth will make you free.

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

I searched the site for anything that would explain how to become a Christian and found nothing. They use the word Christian freely enough. There is an article about what happens after we die but it is based on Ecclesiastes.

The group may have had a sort of face lift when they divested themselves from the Armstrong's . . . it gives the appearance of a works-based salvation.

 

[JaumeJ]

Our Salvation, each one's, is completely personal, according to what God knows we need. Were I to give testimony of my own again, it would demonstrate just how individutal and personal it is, but that should not still be necessary for yours and everyone elses0s is also personal and individual.

The common experience is being convinced by the Holy Spirit that Jesus Christ, Yeshua, is Lord and Savior, none other.

 

[dcontroversal]

It sure makes it easier to download thinking the second death = cease to be. I like it and can see it, in some verses but this is another hot topic I'm studying so I'm still open. My daddy was a preacher for a little old fashioned country church and it wasnt until the last 7 years that I really started digging in the word for myself.

Read Ecclesiastes 3:14.....................and then apply the principle found to the topic at hand....pay particular attention to the words...

WHATSOEVER GOD DOES is EVERLASTING..............

 

[Hevosmies]

Using whosoever will in the context of predestination and election is simply pitting Scripture against Scripture when used as some proof that people come to God out of their own will. Scripture denies this takes place, John 1:13; Romans 9:16ff. Note: it depends not on man's will, but on God who has mercy.

The whosoever wills must be interpreted in light of the other truths, not used in attempt to counter it, or attempt balance it, which is really an attempt to give man and God both credit. The denials will come in to no avail because that is exactly what is happening; think about it, that is exactly why this argument is used, and it is completely unbiblical; Soli Deo Gloria still stands and no argument can disprove it.

Typically, and wrongly, they (whosoever will verses) are used in attempt to neutralize another passage that is not liked, such as John 6:64-66, John 6:44 &c.

No man wills to come to God unless God draws the person, doing a work in their heart, thus the being free in will to do so "conclusions" is in error. This is not what the Scripture is teaching "Come to me in your free will!" Not even close.

Yes, God draws whom he wills to draw. I know, the age old misusage of "...will draw all men unto myself" (John 12:32) must be thrown in, out of context, to make it appear that every single person ever will be drawn to God. Nothing is further from the truth, and this is also pitting Scripture against Scripture. This is (sorry!) discounting one Scriptures truth for another.

The context of John 12:32 shows as to why Jesus made the statement "draw all men unto myself" for any who dare to lay aside their tradition for truth. This theory that all men will be drawn to Christ is simply untrue as the fact remains that not all people have heard the Gospel.

God saves, and he has elected whom he wills to save, these are the whosoever wills.

But bro! If this is the case. WHY do the "whosoever will" verses exist? If we got no choice in the matter, and God picks who is saved, WHY does it say whosoever will, WHY does it say but you were not willing, WHY does it say you didnt this, and didnt that, WHY does God command people to repent, and WHY does God even ask about Israel "WHAT MORE could I have done?" (Isaiah 5:4)

All these verses are rendered quite meaningless if looked at through the reformed lense, no? I understand you like to view at it like this: "Well, whosoever wills then? The one whom God regenerates" or something like that, but thats simply not the way regular people read the plain texts of Scripture.
Im trying to be as polite as possible, knowing I will never accept calvinism, but im asking not for my sake, but for the people who are reading this, could you answer the WHYs I asked above?

 

[prove-all]

This is British-Israelism founded by Herbert W. Armstrong.
http://originofnations.org/

Funny then how I never heard of that site you posted [ORIGIN OF NATIONS ]

Here is a good link about THE ORIGIN OF THE RACES
http://rogerswebsite.com/others/TheOriginoftheRaces.pdf

In this time of the end, bible prophecy is falling into place.

Any idea that there is a present king of Israel living in Britain is absurd.

I believe the bible promises to King David and Abraham, and God does not lie.
Also why then does history recorded the kings list below?

Is there a King or Queen still sitting on the Throne of Judah?
http://originofnations.org/Royals/queens descent/The Queen's Royal Descent from King David of Judah.htm

Israel did not cease to fit into God's plans, and that the church is [not]
now the heir of all the covenants with Abraham and David.

There will be scoffers in the last days as written.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Using whosoever will in the context of predestination and election is simply pitting Scripture against Scripture when used as some proof that people come to God out of their own will. Scripture denies this takes place, John 1:13; Romans 9:16ff. Note: it depends not on man's will, but on God who has mercy.

The whosoever wills must be interpreted in light of the other truths, not used in attempt to counter it, or attempt balance it, which is really an attempt to give man and God both credit. The denials will come in to no avail because that is exactly what is happening; think about it, that is exactly why this argument is used, and it is completely unbiblical; Soli Deo Gloria still stands and no argument can disprove it.

Typically, and wrongly, they (whosoever will verses) are used in attempt to neutralize another passage that is not liked, such as John 6:64-66, John 6:44 &c.

No man wills to come to God unless God draws the person, doing a work in their heart, thus the being free in will to do so "conclusions" is in error. This is not what the Scripture is teaching "Come to me in your free will!" Not even close.

Yes, God draws whom he wills to draw. I know, the age old misusage of "...will draw all men unto myself" (John 12:32) must be thrown in, out of context, to make it appear that every single person ever will be drawn to God. Nothing is further from the truth, and this is also pitting Scripture against Scripture. This is (sorry!) discounting one Scriptures truth for another.

The context of John 12:32 shows as to why Jesus made the statement "draw all men unto myself" for any who dare to lay aside their tradition for truth. This theory that all men will be drawn to Christ is simply untrue as the fact remains that not all people have heard the Gospel.

God saves, and he has elected whom he wills to save, these are the whosoever wills.

The closest way to harmonize the scriptures, to me, is to go with the theory that God has given all mankind a free will to choose how they want to live their lives here in this world, as he has ask us to choose certain things. But God has not given mankind the freedom to choose his eternal destination. Our eternal destination is determined by God's sovereign grace, without the choice of man. The inspired scriptures are written to God's regenerated children of God, who can discern spiritual things, and not to the natural man, as described in 1 Cor 2:14. Greek meaning of "salvation" is "a deliverance, either eternally or timely, as we live our lives here on earth, by repenting, not to be delivered eternally, but timely when we commit a sin.

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

Funny then how I never heard of that site you posted [ORIGIN OF NATIONS ]

Is there a King or Queen still sitting on the Throne of Judah?
http://originofnations.org/Royals/queens descent/The Queen's Royal Descent from King David of Judah.htm

Are you seriously denying ever hearing about that site? It is the site you posted above! All I did was strip off everything but originofnations.org and that is what comes up.

You still wish to deny it?

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

Here is a good link about THE ORIGIN OF THE RACES
http://rogerswebsite.com/others/TheOriginoftheRaces.pdf

This is an article taken from "the Plain Truth." The official magazine of the Worldwide Church of God founded by Herbert W. Armstrong.

Take you cult teachings over to one of their sites. We don't need you trying to proselytize Christians.

 

[prove-all]

Are you seriously denying ever hearing about that site? It is the site you posted above! All I did was strip off everything but originofnations.org and that is what comes up.

You still wish to deny it?

I have never seen that link you posted.
They are not the same as the one I posted,
as far as I could tell.