If Perchance Catholicism Is Mistaken

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garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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Again, I believe what you are saying is a particular Bible interpretation.

In Daniel it says in the days of those kings. Since there are multiple Kings, it is not a single government.

It is in the days of those multiple kings that the Stone comes from heaven, the stone cut without hands.
I would offer... Yes all of the kings.

Like many doctrines .The idea of creating a warning of one world government, Men are anxious to serve signs and wonders the things seen and not the things of faith the unseen eternal. . they are a little late .

One world government was established in the garden .This is when mankind did the will of another voice, using the things seen (no faith) to rob God of unseen of His glory .Some are under one world government according to the three avenues of the god of this world.

1 John 2:16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

The government using kings as that seen is of a pagan design. The unbelieving Jew became jealous of the surrounding pagan nations.

God turned them over temporally to do what they should not of. . a form of blasphemy until the time of reformation . That period of time was used as a parable for the time then present . The reformation came by and through sola scriptura as in all things written in the law and the prophets. It aloneis the reforming, restoring authority and any generation .

No figure head needed . even the Son of man jesus refused to stand in the holy unseen place of the father. When we study knowin the Spirit of Christ dwells in us we are commanded to seek His approval. Un believers are under one world government the god of this world . His temporal kingdom

Deuteronomy 7:23-25 King James Version (KJV) But the Lord thy God shall deliver them unto thee, and shall destroy them with a mighty destruction, until they be destroyed. And he shall deliver their kings into thine hand, and thou shalt destroy their name from under heaven: there shall no man be able to stand before thee, until thou have destroyed them. The graven images of their gods shall ye burn with fire: thou shalt not desire the silver or gold that is on them, nor take it unto thee, lest thou be snared therin: for it is an abomination to the Lord thy God

Note. . . . . (purple in parenthesis) my added comment.

The Holy Ghost this signifying, (using the temporal things seen to give us the unseen spiritual understanding. )that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:Which was a figure (parable) for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. Hebrews 9:8-10

It is finished...

Same sola scriptura used in the 15 th. century reformation against the King of Rome who Lords it over the non vereable ones., called a Pope.

Therefore making the law of the fathers as things of men seen without effect.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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You are correct that we don't have any written record the 12 apostles teaching about asking Christians in heaven to pray for us.

Let's take a step back for a moment and look at the big picture.

We could go back and forth about this or any other Catholic teaching. And we could do it almost indefinitely, as we did with Muslims and Abraham God.

But in the end, I don't think it would have much impact on a serious, practicing Catholic. Because they would probably not be very interested in a particular individual's Bible interpretation.

they would want to know what the body of Christ as a whole has taught throughout the centuries.
Some catholic that is serious to find the truth will think and re think.

About 7 years ago in my online discussion, one catholic ask about it and send me private email if I can tell more why i believe it is satanic.

We have to keep try to tell the thruth to every body. Some member of my family it self catholic. I keep try to convince how satanic it is for years, finally one of my aunt send me a photo she went to Christian church now, not because me, but something else that convince her.

Most of her friend are still catholic, because she went to catholic school for years, live in catholic hostel, where every morning before school went to chapel for prayer ritual
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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What do you think?

I think, no I know, the catholic church is wrong and scripture illustrates the error.

The body, the bride of Christ is not visible but Spiritual and invisible.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
I think the body of Christ is invisible, but then I'm not a practicing Catholic.

I arrived at the conclusion that the church is invisible by reading the Bible as an individual, by myself.

But as I talked about earlier, that idea of individual Bible reading being the way God has chosen to communicate his truths to humans, that idea was only possible for about the last three or four hundred years.

So again, kind of strange that God would give humans the Bible, kind of like lighting a lamp, and then not make the Bible accessible to most humans during most of history.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
7,445
783
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44 “In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever.

So you believe the kings or God will set the everlasting kingdom.

How about one world government promote by pope, is that lucifer government in reve 13
I think that Daniel is saying that God will set up the everlasting kingdom, since it is represented by the stone cut without hands.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
7,445
783
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44 “In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever.

So you believe the kings or God will set the everlasting kingdom.

How about one world government promote by pope, is that lucifer government in reve 13
I think the book of Revelation is referring to things that were happening about the time that John wrote it.

I don't see it as giving a list of events to expect to see here on Earth in the future.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
7,445
783
113
I would offer... Yes all of the kings.

Like many doctrines .The idea of creating a warning of one world government, Men are anxious to serve signs and wonders the things seen and not the things of faith the unseen eternal. . they are a little late .

One world government was established in the garden .This is when mankind did the will of another voice, using the things seen (no faith) to rob God of unseen of His glory .Some are under one world government according to the three avenues of the god of this world.

1 John 2:16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

The government using kings as that seen is of a pagan design. The unbelieving Jew became jealous of the surrounding pagan nations.

God turned them over temporally to do what they should not of. . a form of blasphemy until the time of reformation . That period of time was used as a parable for the time then present . The reformation came by and through sola scriptura as in all things written in the law and the prophets. It aloneis the reforming, restoring authority and any generation .

No figure head needed . even the Son of man jesus refused to stand in the holy unseen place of the father. When we study knowin the Spirit of Christ dwells in us we are commanded to seek His approval. Un believers are under one world government the god of this world . His temporal kingdom

Deuteronomy 7:23-25 King James Version (KJV) But the Lord thy God shall deliver them unto thee, and shall destroy them with a mighty destruction, until they be destroyed. And he shall deliver their kings into thine hand, and thou shalt destroy their name from under heaven: there shall no man be able to stand before thee, until thou have destroyed them. The graven images of their gods shall ye burn with fire: thou shalt not desire the silver or gold that is on them, nor take it unto thee, lest thou be snared therin: for it is an abomination to the Lord thy God

Note. . . . . (purple in parenthesis) my added comment.

The Holy Ghost this signifying, (using the temporal things seen to give us the unseen spiritual understanding. )that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:Which was a figure (parable) for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. Hebrews 9:8-10

It is finished...

Same sola scriptura used in the 15 th. century reformation against the King of Rome who Lords it over the non vereable ones., called a Pope.

Therefore making the law of the fathers as things of men seen without effect.
Reminds me of
2 Corinthians 4: 4. in whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the Good News of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn on them. 5. For we don't preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake; 6. seeing it is God who said, "Light will shine out of darkness," who has shone in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 7. But we have this treasure in clay vessels, that the exceeding greatness of the power may be of God, and not from ourselves.

And the treasure? of course it is wisdom
Proverbs 2: 1. My son, if you will receive my words, and store up my commandments within you; 2. So as to turn your ear to wisdom, and apply your heart to understanding; 3. Yes, if you call out for discernment, and lift up your voice for understanding; 4. If you seek her as silver, and search for her as for hidden treasures.


Isaiah 40: 5. And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it. 6. The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field: 7. The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass. 8. The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
7,445
783
113
Some catholic that is serious to find the truth will think and re think.

About 7 years ago in my online discussion, one catholic ask about it and send me private email if I can tell more why i believe it is satanic.

We have to keep try to tell the thruth to every body. Some member of my family it self catholic. I keep try to convince how satanic it is for years, finally one of my aunt send me a photo she went to Christian church now, not because me, but something else that convince her.

Most of her friend are still catholic, because she went to catholic school for years, live in catholic hostel, where every morning before school went to chapel for prayer ritual
Yes, take what you believe to be true and tell it to other people!

Acts 1: 8. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you. You will be witnesses to me in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the uttermost parts of the earth."
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
7,445
783
113
Some catholic that is serious to find the truth will think and re think.

About 7 years ago in my online discussion, one catholic ask about it and send me private email if I can tell more why i believe it is satanic.

We have to keep try to tell the thruth to every body. Some member of my family it self catholic. I keep try to convince how satanic it is for years, finally one of my aunt send me a photo she went to Christian church now, not because me, but something else that convince her.

Most of her friend are still catholic, because she went to catholic school for years, live in catholic hostel, where every morning before school went to chapel for prayer ritual
Say, Jackson, if you want to be an effective anti-Catholic crusader, you might be interested in checking out a website called Catholic answers.

They have a very popular forum there, and you can interact with a lot of serious Catholics who know a lot more about Catholicism than I do.

It's a funny thing, but if you only move in Protestant circles, you will come away with the idea that there are all these Catholics who once they realize the truth become Protestants. That's the experience I had growing up.

But if you move in Catholic or Eastern Orthodox circles, you will hear stories of people who grew up as bible-believing Protestants and decided to become Catholic or orthodox.

One of my best friends from the Pentecostal church I grew up in went away to college and after that decided to go to seminary to learn more about the Bible and Christianity in general. While there, he met some teachers who were orthodox, and in the end he too became orthodox.

He ended up joining the group started by this gentleman
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_E._Gillquist
Who previously had been heavily involved with campus crusade for Christ, an Evangelical Protestant organization.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
7,149
553
113
I think the book of Revelation is referring to things that were happening about the time that John wrote it.

I don't see it as giving a list of events to expect to see here on Earth in the future.
Rev 13 talk about there will be a 7 years tribulation that only people tat take mark of the beast able to buy or sale. And you believe it happen in john time?

Did Christian in john time not able to buy or sale?

I believe It not happen yet, and will happen, pope promote it.

If it already happen than why pope promote it? How about the antichrist kingdom?

i believe pope work for lucifer to promote antichrist government.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
7,149
553
113
Say, Jackson, if you want to be an effective anti-Catholic crusader, you might be interested in checking out a website called Catholic answers.

They have a very popular forum there, and you can interact with a lot of serious Catholics who know a lot more about Catholicism than I do.

It's a funny thing, but if you only move in Protestant circles, you will come away with the idea that there are all these Catholics who once they realize the truth become Protestants. That's the experience I had growing up.

But if you move in Catholic or Eastern Orthodox circles, you will hear stories of people who grew up as bible-believing Protestants and decided to become Catholic or orthodox.

One of my best friends from the Pentecostal church I grew up in went away to college and after that decided to go to seminary to learn more about the Bible and Christianity in general. While there, he met some teachers who were orthodox, and in the end he too became orthodox.

He ended up joining the group started by this gentleman
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_E._Gillquist
Who previously had been heavily involved with campus crusade for Christ, an Evangelical Protestant organization.
I aware that can happen, but it do not prove that catholic not work for the devil
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
7,445
783
113
Rev 13 talk about there will be a 7 years tribulation that only people tat take mark of the beast able to buy or sale. And you believe it happen in john time?

Did Christian in john time not able to buy or sale?

I believe It not happen yet, and will happen, pope promote it.

If it already happen than why pope promote it? How about the antichrist kingdom?

i believe pope work for lucifer to promote antichrist government.
I think the book of Revelation is part of the genre of apocalyptic literature.

"The writing is characterized by otherworldly journeys, visions, animal imagery derived from the common fund of ancient Middle Eastern mythological imagery, and number symbolism. "
https://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/religion/bible/general/apocalypse

Here in the USA, sometimes a person will begin a story with the phrase
Once upon a Time...

This tells the reader that the following story is not intended to be a factual account, but rather an interesting story involving symbols that contains a profound idea.

So it is with the book of Revelation. John uses symbols and ideas that clue the reader in to knowing that this is not a factual account.

For example, does anyone think that either in the past or sometime in the future there will be an actual woman who is able to sit on seven hills?
Revelation 17: 9. Here is the mind that has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sits.

With all of that in mind, what did the pope mean? I don't know for sure, but if he meant that the challenge of global climate change and industrialized nations releasing too much carbon dioxide into the atmosphere requires all Nations working together, then I would agree with that.

If every nation except for China greatly reduces carbon dioxide emissions, that probably still won't help. China can probably destroy the planet all by itself.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
7,445
783
113
Rev 13 talk about there will be a 7 years tribulation that only people tat take mark of the beast able to buy or sale. And you believe it happen in john time?

Did Christian in john time not able to buy or sale?

I believe It not happen yet, and will happen, pope promote it.

If it already happen than why pope promote it? How about the antichrist kingdom?

i believe pope work for lucifer to promote antichrist government.
You might also be interested in this Wikipedia article. It looks like it's been edited by several different people, so it's a little hard to follow in some places. But some interesting information in there, I think.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalyptic_literature
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
7,445
783
113
I aware that can happen, but it do not prove that catholic not work for the devil
You are right, conversion stories don't prove anything.

But I think it's an interesting situation that sometimes people who grew up Protestant and know the Bible very well decide to become Catholic or orthodox.

Of course we can say they just got deceived or loved the praise of humans or something.

But if you look at their conversion stories, it's often something like they became aware of the issues that come up when everyone reads the Bible for themselves, by themselves.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
13,305
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You are right, conversion stories don't prove anything.

But I think it's an interesting situation that sometimes people who grew up Protestant and know the Bible very well decide to become Catholic or orthodox.

Of course we can say they just got deceived or loved the praise of humans or something.

But if you look at their conversion stories, it's often something like they became aware of the issues that come up when everyone reads the Bible for themselves, by themselves.
A lot of people claim something they do not possess. Religion is easy but only true and genuine conversion produces a Christian. Those who have it cannot be persuaded to leave or forsake it.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
7,445
783
113
A lot of people claim something they do not possess. Religion is easy but only true and genuine conversion produces a Christian. Those who have it cannot be persuaded to leave or forsake it.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Very true! And I think that after a person has a genuine conversion, there can still be questions about things like how to get the proper interpretation of a scripture passage, or how does the body of Christ function.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
10,807
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Reminds me of
2 Corinthians 4: 4. in whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the Good News of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn on them. 5. For we don't preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake; 6. seeing it is God who said, "Light will shine out of darkness," who has shone in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 7. But we have this treasure in clay vessels, that the exceeding greatness of the power may be of God, and not from ourselves.

And the treasure? of course it is wisdom

Proverbs 2: 1. My son, if you will receive my words, and store up my commandments within you; 2. So as to turn your ear to wisdom, and apply your heart to understanding; 3. Yes, if you call out for discernment, and lift up your voice for understanding; 4. If you seek her as silver, and search for her as for hidden treasures.


Isaiah 40: 5. And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it. 6. The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field: 7. The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass. 8. The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

Great parable.

As you quoted in a previous. . . .

I think the book of Revelation is referring to things that were happening about the time that John wrote it.

I don't see it as giving a list of events to expect to see here on Earth in the future.
The day, hour, year or century know man knows its not for those who walk by faith to know.

I was reminded of Revelation 1: 19. It introduces the signified language spoken of in verse 1

Revelation 1: 19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Its like a timeless revelation called signified understanding in the opening verse of Revelation1 . past, future, preset. Going back in time to help understand the later use. . or forward to show from the foundation to its completion. A book of wonderments done in parables as signified language of God .Hiding the unseen spiritual understanding form natural man (no faith) . As a method to teach us to walk by faith . . .hear God not seen..

The view of a thousands eyes of one who owns all of the cattle on a thousand hills (unknown) shewing mercy unto thousands(unknown) of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

The word thousand set aside as a metaphor used to seek out the understanding of parables . signifying a unseen unknown as to whatever is in view to include time a temporal.

Psalm 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

Ecclesiastes 6:6Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?

2 Peter 3:8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Many have literalized the word thousand and converted it into either a thousand years is a day , or a thousand years is a literal thousand years even though we are nearing a literal two thousand . Then did the days begin and what the word last day means . The word thousand is used throughout the bible to represent a unknown. He will come like a thief in the night on the last day those day began when the time of reformation came , it is finished the veil is rent..

Revelation 20:2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Revelation 20:3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Revelation 20:4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
7,149
553
113

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
7,149
553
113
You are right, conversion stories don't prove anything.

But I think it's an interesting situation that sometimes people who grew up Protestant and know the Bible very well decide to become Catholic or orthodox.

Of course we can say they just got deceived or loved the praise of humans or something.

But if you look at their conversion stories, it's often something like they became aware of the issues that come up when everyone reads the Bible for themselves, by themselves.
Some people did for political reason, some because disappointed with the church etc. but I do not believe Bible teach people pray to Mary, or apostle tradition pray to Mary.

I am not anti catholic, but love them, so I tell them that devil deceived them

If I hate them, I will not care for they salvation
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
13,305
1,713
113
Very true! And I think that after a person has a genuine conversion, there can still be questions about things like how to get the proper interpretation of a scripture passage, or how does the body of Christ function.
Growth as a Christian takes an entire lifetime. Christians do not have doubts about the gospel because the Holy Spirit removes all doubt. The tempter will come and endeavor to create uncertainty but that in itself is a witness that what we have is real and genuine.

Scripture speaks of growth going from babes to those of maturity.

For the cause of Christ
Roger