It's not an insult...

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B

Blackpowderduelist

Guest
#61
I left calv
ok

Calvary Chapel.... not the newer version

big on Bible, believe in the gifts but are low key and no weird stuff

but I have moved far far away from where I grew up
I left calvary chapel.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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#63
I know that you do not believe speaking in tongues is proof of salvation but Kelby does.
Using Acts 10, the Cornelius account, to form a doctrine that speaking in tongues is proof of salvation is very problematic.

There was no revelation of the mystery at Acts 10 yet, and scripture was not completed.

None of them knew 1 Cor 15:1-4 that people can be saved by just believing in the death burial and resurrection of Christ.

Peter himself did not preach that to Cornelius, instead he said in Acts 10 that one need to "work righteousness" in order to be accepted, which is in line with what he will later write to Israel in 1 Peter 4:12-19.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Without Paul's revelations and the completed scriptures, Israel needed signs to believe that someone was saved, so that was a period of time where God confirmed that gentiles can now be saved, without Israel, without the law, thru them speaking in tongues, which astonished all the Jewish believers present.

If you recall the final verse of Mark

20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

The Lord was confirmed the preached word, or the spoken word, with signs. it was necessary since they did not have the completed scriptures yet.

But once scripture is completed and Paul's revelation of the mystery completely written down, we are no longer to look for signs. We believe one is saved the moment he believes in the death burial and resurrection of Christ.

That is why using Acts for salvation doctrine is so problematic, it was a transitional time period between Israel's program and the program of the Body of Christ.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,215
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#64
We are to be sealed, baptized, and filled with the Holy Spirit.

Sealed is God’s mark on us as His possession- forever His - eternal life.

Baptism with Holy Spirit is the first time we are filled and empowered by the Holy Spirit.

Filled with the Holy Spirit is keeping the Holy Spirit stirred up- not neglecting, grieving or quenching the Holy Spirit.

The sealing happens when we first believe but, the baptism and filling can happen the same time as sealing or it can happen later.
Would you be getting that from the book of Acts . I would see the transition of what's going on there as just that . A transition from the OT to the new and from Jews only to Jews and Gentiles . Its 10 years from Acts 2 till Acts 11 . So from the day of pentacost till Cornelius. Today we are baptised by the Holy Spirit into the body . At the same time we are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. I don't see today from pauls epistles that we have a second experience of the Holy Spirit or a ' baptism of the Holy Spirit beyond 1cor 12.13 . I know certain pentacostal churches teach a ' second blessing ' or to expect a ' baptism of the Holy Spirit ' an experience beyond initial regeneration where you might speak in tongues. I think this is a confusion that is arrived from taking what happened to the transition from John's baptism to the receiving of the Holy Spirit in Acts . How God was working through this transition.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#65
Sorry @eternally-gratefull, this is going to be a long post but, your heart is so tender and loving towards God... I have to say all of this to you....

When we first believe in Jesus Christ and get saved and born again, we are SEALED with the Holy Spirit but, the BAPTISM with the Holy Spirit occurs the 1st time we are FILLED with the Holy Spirit and this “baptism and being filled” can happen when we are first saved or it can happen later.

From scripture, we know there are 3 baptisms - water, Spirit and Fire.

“I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Matthew 3:11 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 3:11&version=NIV

From scripture, we also know the Holy Spirit “seals” us......

And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Ephesians 4:30 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Ephesians 4:30&version=NIV

.......and we are to receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit.....

On one occasion, while he (Jesus) was eating with them, he gave them this command:

“Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”
Acts 1:4-5 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Acts 1:4-5&version=NIV

Another verse:

While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”

They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?” “John’s baptism,” they replied.

Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”

On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.
Acts 19:1-6 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Acts 19:1-6&version=NIV

..... and be “filled” with the Holy Spirit.

And the disciples were filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.
Acts 13:52 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Acts 13:52&version=NIV

Sealed => God’s “Mark” on us as His possession. (Analogy: God buys a cellphone - God owns it now.)

Baptism => First time God “fills” us with New Wine the Holy Spirit. We may even feel and act drunk like they did on Pentecost. He endues us with power to be witnesses for Jesus Christ in the Earth. (Analogy: God “activates” His cellphone.)

Filled => Stir up the Gift of the Holy Spirit with songs of praise and worship, meditating on God’s Word, fellowship with believers, etc. (Analogy: God charges His cellphone to 100%.)

NOW, we can send and receive texts, phone calls, videos, chats, etc to and from God! We can hear His voice, engage in a relationship with Him!

@KelbyofGod is encouraging all Believers to let God “activate and charge us up 100%” with His Holy Spirit. :love:(y)
GM sister, thanks for taking the time to share what you see, but I can not agree with you.

as you said, were were sealed with the spirit, if you look at it, that is when we recieve the spirit, in the OT this was symbolized by Moses pouring the anointing oil on the Levite who was being consecrated as priest. It also occured when the oil was poured over Arron, who would become high priest, (Remember the NT states we are made kings and priests)

but looking back to that, something happened first, before the anointing took place, we had the washing in the Jordan, of course, this is nothing more than moses baptizing them in the Jordan river, (the word baptism was not used back then, and to be honest it would not be used today, except for whatever reason, the people who translated the NT transliterated the word Baptizo By removing the O and replacing it with an E.

so in the symbolic ceremony of a Levite being made into a priest, we have them being baptized in the Jordan, the sacrifice was given (the lamb) and then they were anointed with the holy oil. (The lamb represents Christ and his death, the oil represents the Holy Spirit who consecrates the person as priest as he is poured out into him)

noW, you mentioned John, it’s good you see this, as he said he indeed baptized in water, but as he said the one coming will baptize with the HS and Fire, this can be a confusing statement but in Matt 3, he tells us what this means,

12 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

we see a few things here

1. this thing Jesus was going to do was in order to seperate the wheat (believers) from the chaff (unbelievers)

2. the wheat would be gathered together and eventually put in the barn (heaven)

3. the chaff would be put in the fire with shall never be quenched, (there is only on fire in scripture spoken of in this manner, and that is the fires of hell, where Jesus will baptize the unbeliever at the great white throne)

baptism of the Holy Spirit is the means by which the believer is seperated

1. he washes us by baptizing us into the death and burial of Christ (Romans 6 with titus 3: 5)

2. the spiritual baptism of the Hs is the means by which the Hs spiritually circumcised us with the circumcision done without hands (col 2: 11-13) where we are forgiven of all sin, and because the handwriting of things whicy were against us were against us was nailed to the cross, we who were dead in tresspasses and sins are made alive in Christ (as I said earlier, if we have not received the baptism of the spirit, we are still dead in our sin, this passage as much as says those exact words)

3. he then immerses (baptizes) us into Christ himself (gal 3:27) Where we are no longer in Adam, but in Christ,

4. he immerses (baptizes) us also into the body of Christ (1 cor 12: 13) Where we are one body with many parts. after We are in the body and anointed by the HS as priests, the in dwelling of the spirit allows him to teach us and eventually give us our gifts. (As I have said many times, it is not the baptism which gives us gifts but the anointing,)

it saddens me when people see the word baptism and they automatically assume it means water, baptism is not a native English word, so we should use the native (Greek) defenition of The word any time we see it. Not it’s interposed English interpretation which was made up by people along time ago.
 
Mar 14, 2011
73,945
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#66
We are to be sealed, baptized, and filled with the Holy Spirit.

Sealed is God’s mark on us as His possession- forever His - eternal life.

Baptism with Holy Spirit is the first time we are filled and empowered by the Holy Spirit.

Filled with the Holy Spirit is keeping the Holy Spirit stirred up- not neglecting, grieving or quenching the Holy Spirit.

The sealing happens when we first believe but, the baptism and filling can happen the same time as sealing or it can happen later.
Again this is wrong

sealed is when the Hs comes in and anoints us (we are given the spirit)

baptism is the washing and placing into Christ, where we are made alive because of the forgiveness of sin, and removed from Adam and placed into (baptized) christ

filled is when we allow the Hs to actually work in us, by humbly removing our will and allowing him to lead us
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#67
So you are joining Kelby in passing judgment on all who do not speak in tongues as lacking in our Christian life.
I believe she is my sister, I am not sure she goes as deep as Kelby in his beliefs of who is saved and who is not saved,
 

DWR

Well-known member
Apr 27, 2020
567
319
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#68
I understand your frustration but, just forget about everything you’ve ever seen or heard by people and just go to the Holy Bible and in humility and sincerity ask God for the Truth about His Holy Spirit and read every scripture that mentions the Holy Spirit. Then, decide.

Don’t read commentaries about the Holy Spirit- just read the scriptures, let the Lord teach you. :love:(y)
I have studied the Scripture for years with much prayer.
The Scripture has shown me the truth.
May I suggest that you do the same.
 

DWR

Well-known member
Apr 27, 2020
567
319
63
#69
Using Acts 10, the Cornelius account, to form a doctrine that speaking in tongues is proof of salvation is very problematic.

There was no revelation of the mystery at Acts 10 yet, and scripture was not completed.

None of them knew 1 Cor 15:1-4 that people can be saved by just believing in the death burial and resurrection of Christ.

Peter himself did not preach that to Cornelius, instead he said in Acts 10 that one need to "work righteousness" in order to be accepted, which is in line with what he will later write to Israel in 1 Peter 4:12-19.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Without Paul's revelations and the completed scriptures, Israel needed signs to believe that someone was saved, so that was a period of time where God confirmed that gentiles can now be saved, without Israel, without the law, thru them speaking in tongues, which astonished all the Jewish believers present.

If you recall the final verse of Mark

20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

The Lord was confirmed the preached word, or the spoken word, with signs. it was necessary since they did not have the completed scriptures yet.

But once scripture is completed and Paul's revelation of the mystery completely written down, we are no longer to look for signs. We believe one is saved the moment he believes in the death burial and resurrection of Christ.

That is why using Acts for salvation doctrine is so problematic, it was a transitional time period between Israel's program and the program of the Body of Christ.
Peter had a real problem with the Gentiles. Seems he never really got over it.
He really did not want to go to Cornelius. Could not yet understand that the Gospel was for all.
What took place there was a sign for Peter as well as for all.
But what happened that day is not what we see today being presented as speaking in tongues. Not even close.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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#70
Peter had a real problem with the Gentiles. Seems he never really got over it.
He really did not want to go to Cornelius. Could not yet understand that the Gospel was for all.
What took place there was a sign for Peter as well as for all.
But what happened that day is not what we see today being presented as speaking in tongues. Not even close.
Well he wasn't told by Christ that the prophetic timetable has changed, that gentiles were no longer to be saved thru the rise of Israel (Zechariah 8:23).

You recalled the final question the 11 asked of Jesus, before the latter was taken up into heaven in Acts 1:6?
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
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#71
This message is for ALL,

Satan tries really hard to make it sound like an insult rather than an exhortation when someone is advised that they still need to receive the Holy Ghost. ESPECIALLY if that person has faith.

It can be clearly stated that Peter, James and John were even made APOSTLES before they received the Holy Ghost! John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
  • Are we INSULTING them by saying they still needed to receive the Holy Ghost? Absolutely not.
  • Are we claiming they don't have faith in God? No, it's quite easy to see that they believed and trusted God and Jesus.
  • Are we saying the promise of the Holy Ghost isn't for them? Again, Absolutely not.
  • We are just saying that people need to seek until they find, knock until it is opened, ask until they receive...and not give up along the way. We are encouraging them to CONTINUE until they receive all that God has PROMISED them...(including a place in heaven).
  • We see people all over who have heard of Jesus or have a bible or have learned how to pray and recieve things (which means they have FAITH) and yet haven't even heard that they need to receive the Holy Ghost. Paul ran into a group like that in Acts 19. The bible calls them disciples. Paul acknowledged their belief. Yet they hadn't been told that they needed the Holy Ghost. They were thankfully able to receive this without taking offense...internalized the additional truth...were baptized to get it right...and eventually (not immediately) ACTUALLY RECEIVED the Holy Ghost, which didn't ACTUALLY HAPPEN until Paul laid his hands on them. That is a beautiful account because they could have taken offense instead (as Satan works hard to make happen today).
To say that someone still needs to receive the Holy Ghost isn't an insult. It's a statement that we understand that God has more for them and we're believing that they are worthy to receive it... if they TARRY until they are endued with power "For ye shall receive POWER after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you". and "For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in POWER".

Too many have much doctrine and words....but no power... and they fulfil the scripture regarding those who are "having a form of godliness, but denying the power".

If you know you have faith, and you know you believe in Jesus, and you know you love God, but also know you don't really have much power, and especially if you know that you've never "spake with new tongues as the spirit gave them utterance"...you probably need to seek God until he baptizes you with the same Holy Ghost that he gave on the day of Pentecost and promised "unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call".

As I've said to others I now say to ALL... I wish you well on your journey.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Not an insult, to whom? It is heresy taught in apostacy. I would say that it is an insult to Christ. You do despite to Gods word and think there will be no consequence?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
L

lenna

Guest
#72
You might want to check Kelby's post in THE PURPOSE OF SPEAKING IN TONGUES thread.
If I have mistaken Kelby's belief for someone else , I am sorry.
Let Kelby clear this up.
supply the link

I am not looking through some 50 odd pages

it's your claim, you need to supply your 'proof'

otherwise, just quit saying something you do not prove. this is about truth
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
7,821
2,277
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#73
Would you be getting that from the book of Acts . I would see the transition of what's going on there as just that . A transition from the OT to the new and from Jews only to Jews and Gentiles . Its 10 years from Acts 2 till Acts 11 . So from the day of pentacost till Cornelius. Today we are baptised by the Holy Spirit into the body . At the same time we are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. I don't see today from pauls epistles that we have a second experience of the Holy Spirit or a ' baptism of the Holy Spirit beyond 1cor 12.13 . I know certain pentacostal churches teach a ' second blessing ' or to expect a ' baptism of the Holy Spirit ' an experience beyond initial regeneration where you might speak in tongues. I think this is a confusion that is arrived from taking what happened to the transition from John's baptism to the receiving of the Holy Spirit in Acts . How God was working through this transition.
The second distinct work of the Holy Spirit is seen in scripture. Ofer Jesus rose from the dead and came to the disciples and was with them 40 days, you will read in John 20:22 they received the Holy Spirit. after which Jesus said go and wait in Jerusalem until you have been empowered from on high Luke 24:49. In the Book of Acts again Jesus is speaking at the accession Acts 1:8 that they would receive power from the Holy Spirit.

Opinions and insulting comments by some to not change this truth of what Jesus said, and did prior to HIS accession. IS the Holy Spirit able to do more things than one at one time ?

  1. Can the Holy Spirit be in the believer ?
  2. Can the Holy Spirit empower the believer to do?
  3. Does the Holy Spirit have the ability to be in a person and come upon a person?
The answer is YES. Jesus can have relationship with a person be in and person and Yet they are not empowered to serve in a position or called to one. One can be saved and the Holy Spirit never use them to heal somebody. It is almost laughable how some will say the gifts of the Holy Spirit are done away with yet tell you that you have been empowered to do works that NO Longer exist. They are limiting the Spirit of the living God. whats foolish thing to do in the name of " I have studied " therefore you are wrong.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
7,821
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#74
I have studied the Scripture for years with much prayer.
The Scripture has shown me the truth.
May I suggest that you do the same.
You you are saying you know better? Just provide the explanation of John 20:22 what happen here and why after this did the disciples have to wait when they were already saved and had the Holy Spirt ? Just explain why Jesus said in Luke 24:49 and Acts 1:8 to wait for power after they have already received the Holy Spirit as we see in John 20:22?
 
L

lenna

Guest
#76
Peter had a real problem with the Gentiles. Seems he never really got over it.
He really did not want to go to Cornelius. Could not yet understand that the Gospel was for all.
What took place there was a sign for Peter as well as for all.
But what happened that day is not what we see today being presented as speaking in tongues. Not even close.
smh

of course he had a problem with it

you would have had a problem with it too if you had been told all your life that Gentiles are nasty and have nothing to do with them

what happened on the day of Pentecost was the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. from that time until now, He has been here

as long as you understand the gospel is for all. but you do not seem to understand that the Holy Spirit is the central theme of that gospel on this earth, convincing people of Jesus sacrifice, convincing people of truth and convicting of sin...among other things
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
7,821
2,277
113
#77
We are to be sealed, baptized, and filled with the Holy Spirit.

Sealed is God’s mark on us as His possession- forever His - eternal life.

Baptism with Holy Spirit is the first time we are filled and empowered by the Holy Spirit.

Filled with the Holy Spirit is keeping the Holy Spirit stirred up- not neglecting, grieving or quenching the Holy Spirit.

The sealing happens when we first believe but, the baptism and filling can happen the same time as sealing or it can happen later.
This is said in John 1:33 That Jesus is the baptizer in the Holy Spirit

John 20:22 Jesus breathed on them and said " Receive the Holy Spirit

Then Jesus said prior to HIS accession Luke 24:49 go and wait until you receive power from on high

Acts 1:8 HE said you will receive power after the Holy Spirit comes upon you.

two very distinctive works that are done by the same Holy Spirit one done to bare witness we are saved the other work to bare witness of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. none of these self-proclaimed theologians here can express;lain this why? because they have studied and prayed and thus they have the understanding but YE do not!
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,215
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#78
The second distinct work of the Holy Spirit is seen in scripture. Ofer Jesus rose from the dead and came to the disciples and was with them 40 days, you will read in John 20:22 they received the Holy Spirit. after which Jesus said go and wait in Jerusalem until you have been empowered from on high Luke 24:49. In the Book of Acts again Jesus is speaking at the accession Acts 1:8 that they would receive power from the Holy Spirit.

Opinions and insulting comments by some to not change this truth of what Jesus said, and did prior to HIS accession. IS the Holy Spirit able to do more things than one at one time ?

  1. Can the Holy Spirit be in the believer ?
  2. Can the Holy Spirit empower the believer to do?
  3. Does the Holy Spirit have the ability to be in a person and come upon a person?
The answer is YES. Jesus can have relationship with a person be in and person and Yet they are not empowered to serve in a position or called to one. One can be saved and the Holy Spirit never use them to heal somebody. It is almost laughable how some will say the gifts of the Holy Spirit are done away with yet tell you that you have been empowered to do works that NO Longer exist. They are limiting the Spirit of the living God. whats foolish thing to do in the name of " I have studied " therefore you are wrong.
Jesus was speaking to those specific people. THEY had signs accompanying ther message ,as we see in the book of acts . I've not said the Holy Spirit is not working today. The apostles were to lay the foundation, not us in 2020 .
 

CharliRenee

Member
Staff member
Nov 4, 2014
6,212
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#79
So many thoughts on this...

We are are called to exhort, and admonish, but I notice more do much better on the giving than the receiving in this arena. How something is delivered is as important as the content, especially in the making an edifying difference. It should always be given with His Grace in mind.

Oh, I do not think you were inappropriate with this thread. It actually has me pondering.

Should we all want a closer, deeper, invested relationship with God...100%

There is even a verse that says...

Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? But earnestly desire the higher gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way.
1 Corinthians 12:27‭-‬31 ESV

Ours is not to be the Holy Ghost, telling people how to walk in our faith. We have the One to guide us, as we have the word. I would never want to shame someone or leave them feeling God isn't moving in them the way He sees fit. We are not the authority on these matters, only God knows our hearts.

I believe in the gifts of the spirit, and I yearn to be blessed but more than that I want to be a blessing, honoring Him in all that I think, say, do and feel.

Do I always, does anyone...NO!!

I guess that I would just want to encourage everyone, myself included to kindle the fire that is already within. Love others in all ways, all with Him in mind and heart!! Do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with Him.

He is the way...He will get us where we need to be. Our focus should be Him, and the gifts are just precious treasures wrapped up in Him!!!

And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
Philippians 1:6 ESV
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
7,821
2,277
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#80
Jesus was speaking to those specific people. THEY had signs accompanying ther message ,as we see in the book of acts . I've not said the Holy Spirit is not working today. The apostles were to lay the foundation, not us in 2020 .
that is your answer ? I am not suggesting you are saying the Holy Spirit is not working today, I am asking you specifically of what the word of God shows in context to what Jesus did and said before HIS accession in Acts chapter one. The foundation is what Jesus said it is
"upon this Rock I will build my church and the gates of Hell will not prevail against" Matthew 16:18 that Rock was the confession of Peter that : “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” The Holy Spirit gave that to Peter as we read. No one is saying we re laying a foundation in 2020 that is straw man, you said in an earlier post

"I don't see today from "pauls epistles" that we have a second experience of the Holy Spirit or a ' baptism of the Holy Spirit beyond 1cor 12.13 ."

I disagree as I see in scripture in John 20:22 and what Jesu said in Luke 24:49 and what Jesus said in Acts 1:8. Are you suggesting Paul changed what Jesus said and did here by writing an "epistles"?

prove it?