Jesus's sacrifice

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Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
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#21
He certainly didn't cry out because what people were saying while He was dying on the cross but rather because the Father had forsaken him. In agony, Jesus asked the Father why? The answer to this question is contained in the bible. People have said bad stuff to me through the years and I could really care squat what they said. Another thing, these evil sinners you mention were actually you and me. It's OK though, 'cause Jesus asked the Father to forgive us for we know not what we do.
Jesus asked his father to forgive them because he knew his father was listening to everything he said. This in itself proves Jesus wasn't being forsaken.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#22
I often hear people say that Jesus was looked at as sinful by his father when he was hanging on the cross, but I never see the bible saying God viewed his son like that.
What do you believe happened while Christ has hanging on that cross for the sins of the whole world? There is a huge difference between "looked at as sinful" and "looked at as SIN". He was literally made SIN for us, even though He knew no sin. When all our sins were laid upon Him, then He was also subject to God's wrath against sin. Therefore there was total darkness for three agonizing hours while Christ paid the penalty for all sins, and then took away the sin of the world. This was pre-figured in the Brazen Serpent.

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. (John 3:14,15)
 

tourist

Senior Member
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#23
Jesus asked his father to forgive them because he knew his father was listening to everything he said. This in itself proves Jesus wasn't being forsaken.
If He was not forsaken He would not have asked the Father why He was being forsaken. This is clearly written in scripture and in itself proves that Jesus was indeed being forsaken. Sin has consequences and Jesus was carrying the sins of the world. The Father could not look at this sin so He turned away for a period of time consisting of three days and three nights. The bible says that Jesus descended into hell but after three days He rose from the dead.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
34,980
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#24
Paul's statement is based on the scripture he quoted, which says anyone hanging on a tree is cursed, but the reason for hanging anyone was that the person's committed a sin worth death, which Jesus didn't. So any belief in Jesus being made a curse would only be true if he was lied against.
It seems you are saying Scripture has lied about Jesus becoming a curse for us in paying the sin debt, for which He was purposed before the creation of the world, and the reason why He incarnated :unsure:
 
M

Miri

Guest
#25
I think the answer lies with the blood sacrifice. See Leviticus 16
In the OT the priest would make a sacrifice first for his own sin.
Then sacrifice a bull to atone for the sin of everyone (plus there was
the scape goat etc).

The priest was basically putting his own sin and the sin of the nation onto
animals.

Leviticus 16:30 NKJV
[30] For on that day the priest shall make atonement for you, to
cleanse you, that you may be clean from all your sins before the LORD.


With Jesus he did not have to first make atonement for his own sin. But
he was the sacrifice, the sin of the world was placed on Jesus, He was our
substitute.

He became sin for us when He Himself knew no sin. He became the sacrifice for
us. He was also the priest in one sense as He freely offered Himself. He is also
prophet as through Jesus all the prophecies were fulfilled. Also King!

Jesus was the complete package, the only package who had the qualifications to
bear our sin. To just think about the sacrifice alone doesn’t give the full picture.
We need to bear the other attribute in mind too.

Also remember we are the scapegoat goat. Remember the scapegoat was allowed
to be set free, while the other was sacrificed.
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
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#26
What do you believe happened while Christ has hanging on that cross for the sins of the whole world?
I believe sinners were trying to judge God guilty of wrongdoing.

There is a huge difference between "looked at as sinful" and "looked at as SIN". He was literally made SIN for us, even though He knew no sin. When all our sins were laid upon Him, then He was also subject to God's wrath against sin.
God doesn't pronounce sentence on the innocent for what the guilty do.

The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. Deut.24:16

Jesus suffered the wrath of men, not the wrath of his father.

And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath, Lk.4;28

Therefore there was total darkness for three agonizing hours while Christ paid the penalty for all sins, and then took away the sin of the world. This was pre-figured in the Brazen Serpent.

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. (John 3:14,15)
The penalty to sin is the life of the sinner, unless we repent and turn to God.
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
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587
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#27
It seems you are saying Scripture has lied about Jesus becoming a curse for us in paying the sin debt, for which He was purposed before the creation of the world, and the reason why He incarnated :unsure:
No, I'm saying scripture records men falsely accusing Jesus of sins worth death under Jewish law and then having him put to death by Roman crucifixion, which made it look like Jesus was cursed by God according to the law.

now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause. Jn.15:24-25
 

JohnRH

Junior Member
Mar 5, 2018
311
134
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#28
I often hear people say that Jesus was looked at as sinful by his father when he was hanging on the cross, but I never see the bible saying God viewed his son like that. I see God always testifying of his son as holy, good, pure and righteous.

And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Mt.3:17

It seems to me the only way Jesus is ever thought of as sinful, is by false accusers and those who believed their lies.

They answered him, “If this man were not doing evil, we would not have delivered him over to you.” Jn.18:30
These verses might be why you hear words to that effect:

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Isaiah 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief ...

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree ...

Of course the Father knew Jesus Himself was sinless - He was bearing our sin on the cross.
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
1,342
587
113
#29
I think the answer lies with the blood sacrifice. See Leviticus 16
In the OT the priest would make a sacrifice first for his own sin.
Then sacrifice a bull to atone for the sin of everyone (plus there was
the scape goat etc).

The priest was basically putting his own sin and the sin of the nation onto
animals.

Leviticus 16:30 NKJV
[30] For on that day the priest shall make atonement for you, to
cleanse you, that you may be clean from all your sins before the LORD.

With Jesus he did not have to first make atonement for his own sin. But
he was the sacrifice, the sin of the world was placed on Jesus, He was our
substitute.

He became sin for us when He Himself knew no sin. He became the sacrifice for
us. He was also the priest in one sense as He freely offered Himself. He is also
prophet as through Jesus all the prophecies were fulfilled. Also King!

Jesus was the complete package, the only package who had the qualifications to
bear our sin. To just think about the sacrifice alone doesn’t give the full picture.
We need to bear the other attribute in mind too.

Also remember we are the scapegoat goat. Remember the scapegoat was allowed
to be set free, while the other was sacrificed.
I think Jesus represents both goats, the sacrifice he made and his resurrection. I don't think the sacrifice was for substitution, but for purpose of producing repentance. We ask God for forgiveness because we believe in Jesus,

And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: Lev.16:21

He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh themshall have mercy. Pro.28:13
 

JohnRH

Junior Member
Mar 5, 2018
311
134
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#31
God doesn't pronounce sentence on the innocent for what the guilty do.
Adam & Eve sinned. God "pronounced sentence" on an innocent animal so they could be clothed.

Have you heard of animal sacrifices in the Old Testament? Those animals were innocent.

Have you heard of the Lamb of God?
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
1,342
587
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#32
These verses might be why you hear words to that effect:

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Yes, God knew Jesus would be falsely accused of being a sinner.

we know that this man is a sinner. Jn.9:24


Isaiah 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
They esteemed wrong.

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Yes, God laid the burden of unjust suffering on his son for us.

Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief ...
God is pleased by his son's obedience in face of adversity.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
So Jesus appeared like any other man. This is probably one reason why the Pharisees thought, "Who doesthisguy think he is,God?"

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree ...
Already explained.

Of course the Father knew Jesus Himself was sinless - He was bearing our sin on the cross.
Being unjustly tortured is sinful and Jesus bore it. Sin is non-transferable.

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. Eze.18:20
 

TM19782017

Active member
Dec 15, 2018
250
151
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#34
I interpret the crucifixion as Jesus showing us the way.

Matthew 16:24-26 English Standard Version (ESV)
Take Up Your Cross and Follow Jesus
24 Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 25 For whoever would save his life[a] will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. 26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul?

When you think of any person in history who is seen as someone to admire, have they not had to go through their own personal battles of strife and suffering to get to their place of victory?

Name 1 person in all of mankind who is seen as a great person who NEVER had any tough battles along the way?
Have you ever seen a movie where such a person has no troubles and becomes successful? NO, that would be so boring.

The old saying of no pain, no gain is true.... Nothing good comes easy. If it did, it would not be appreciated once achieved.
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
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#35
Adam & Eve sinned. God "pronounced sentence" on an innocent animal so they could be clothed.

Have you heard of animal sacrifices in the Old Testament? Those animals were innocent.

Have you heard of the Lamb of God?
I know Jesus died for sinners. He told his followers,

Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you Jn.15:20-21

It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household? Mt.10:25

So, evil mankind called Jesus the devil, cursed and persecuted him unmercifully.
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
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#36
Yeah, He took away the sins of the world.
No, he takes away the sins of those who go to him for forgiveness.

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. Jn.8:24
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
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587
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#37
I interpret the crucifixion as Jesus showing us the way.

Matthew 16:24-26 English Standard Version (ESV)
Take Up Your Cross and Follow Jesus
24 Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 25 For whoever would save his life[a] will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. 26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul?

When you think of any person in history who is seen as someone to admire, have they not had to go through their own personal battles of strife and suffering to get to their place of victory?

Name 1 person in all of mankind who is seen as a great person who NEVER had any tough battles along the way?
Have you ever seen a movie where such a person has no troubles and becomes successful? NO, that would be so boring.

The old saying of no pain, no gain is true.... Nothing good comes easy. If it did, it would not be appreciated once achieved.
In this case the battle was against sin and death and only God could triumph over that!
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
1,342
587
113
#38
Well it is quite obvious from this remark that you know absolutely nothing about the finished work of Christ.
Jesus is still working in our lives, helping us to endure whatever comes against us. This ministry will end for unrepentant sinners when judgment day comes.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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#39
No, he takes away the sins of those who go to him for forgiveness.

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. Jn.8:24
I am sure that this is true but Jesus did ask the Father to forgive them because they know not what they do. Hopefully, everyone that Jesus was referring to eventually confessed their sins and asked for forgiveness.
 
L

LPT

Guest
#40
A few times Jesus showed his humanity, IMO what he said on the cross is an example as well. like when he sweated blood figuratively speaking, on the cross why is this happening figuratively speaking.