Jesus's sacrifice

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

obedienttogod

Well-known member
Jan 3, 2019
1,012
342
83
#61
i do not think that the purpose of the fulfillment of any prophesy is merely 'to fulfill it'

____________________________:unsure:
is Christ God ?



And when David wrote that prophecy by the guidance of the Holy spirit, I doubt David visibly could see Yeshua on a cross. Meaning, prophecy foretold and prophecy fulfilled hold the purpose only God desires. We see the result and are able to acknowledge what God has done, but only God knows the full intended purpose.


The Voice speaking from the fire in the burning bush claimed He was the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. After instructing Moses to go to his people, Moses asked if the children of Israel ask who sent him, who should he say? To which the Voice replied, I AM, sent you.

Yeshua on a few occasions claimed that He was, I AM.

Yeshua on His own admittance revealed that He was God.

I believe that speaks clearly about who Yeshua was and still is!!
 

obedienttogod

Well-known member
Jan 3, 2019
1,012
342
83
#62
I don't think that God is going to cast anyone in the lake of fire for all of eternity. It is God's will and desire that all shall be saved. It says this in the bible.

So the Great White Throne Judgement is just a myth?

Scripture claims anyone who rejects Christ (God) ends up in the Lake of Fire!!
 
M

Miri

Guest
#63
I think the answer lies with the blood sacrifice. See Leviticus 16
In the OT the priest would make a sacrifice first for his own sin.
Then sacrifice a bull to atone for the sin of everyone (plus there was
the scape goat etc).

The priest was basically putting his own sin and the sin of the nation onto
animals.

Leviticus 16:30 NKJV
[30] For on that day the priest shall make atonement for you, to
cleanse you, that you may be clean from all your sins before the LORD.


With Jesus he did not have to first make atonement for his own sin. But
he was the sacrifice, the sin of the world was placed on Jesus, He was our
substitute.

He became sin for us when He Himself knew no sin. He became the sacrifice for
us. He was also the priest in one sense as He freely offered Himself. He is also
prophet as through Jesus all the prophecies were fulfilled. Also King!

Jesus was the complete package, the only package who had the qualifications to
bear our sin. To just think about the sacrifice alone doesn’t give the full picture.
We need to bear the other attribute in mind too.

Also remember we are the scapegoat goat. Remember the scapegoat was allowed
to be set free, while the other was sacrificed.
I think Jesus represents both goats, the sacrifice he made and his resurrection. I don't think the sacrifice was for substitution, but for purpose of producing repentance. We ask God for forgiveness because we believe in Jesus,

And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: Lev.16:21

He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh themshall have mercy. Pro.28:13
Take a look at all these verses

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Substitution
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
33,730
11,458
113
66
Tennessee
#64
So the Great White Throne Judgement is just a myth?

Scripture claims anyone who rejects Christ (God) ends up in the Lake of Fire!!
The scripture is certainly correct, no one comes to the Father except by Jesus. The bible does not specifically state that anyone is thrown in the lake of fire as a result of the judgement, it only states the penalty for sin. The bible also states that it is God's will and desire that none shall perish. It is inconceivable that God is not capable of accomplishing His own will and desire regarding salvation.

I believe that every word in the bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit and will certainly come to pass as stated but the reality is the entire Word of God has not yet been made known. In Revelation the apostle John was told not to record what the 7 Thunders uttered, Paul was told not to relate a certain matter in the vision that he saw, and it is not known what Jesus wrote on the ground with His finger when the woman caught in adultery was brought before Him. When it is finally revealed what was said, saw, and written in these instances it is certainly possible that the whole dynamic of the perception of salvation might be changed from what is currently understood.

None of what will be revealed will contradict what is already known and stated in scripture but the understanding may certainly be changed, and this for the ultimate glory of God and for the benefit for those that may otherwise eternally separated from the love of God.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
33,730
11,458
113
66
Tennessee
#65
God can't forsake himself. Not even for a micro second.

[[To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David.]] My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? Psa.22:1

It's a question Jesus knew the answer to very well and had nothing to do with him actually being abandoned.
Jesus did in fact ask the question to the Father why He was being forsaken. Of course, Jesus knew the answer and that is because He was now carrying the sins of the world and that His father could not look at sin.

After paying the penalty for sin by descending into hell for 3 days He was restored to the Father that He has always known. There is a consequence for sin but Jesus was able and willing to pay this penalty by dying on the cross. Before being crucified Jesus prayed to the Father to have this cup taken from Him but nevertheless, also prayed that the Father's will and desire be accomplished by His dying on the cross for the sins of the world.

He was definitely forsaken by the Father otherwise Jesus would not have asked the Father, 'why?'. It's not that Jesus did not already know the answer but this most important question was asked for our own benefit in understanding the consequences of sin and that there is a price that has to be paid as a result.

You are correct in saying that Jesus knew the answer very well for it is probably the most important question that has ever been asked, one that everyone should be asking for themselves as well because it pertains to our personal relationship with the Lord and ultimately for our salvation.
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
1,342
587
113
#66
I've looked at them Miri. None of those verses teach penal substitution. Many of them do teach that people who were not responsible for certain sins committed, were still affected by them.

Where those who follow Jesus are concerned, Paul said,

That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; Phil.3:10

If penal substitution was true, there would be no way Paul could understand the sufferings of our Savior, or be made like him in death. No way. Do you see this? But if Jesus's sufferings were the result of being persecuted for obeying God, that is something believers could have fellowship with, could feel, could experience.

In speaking of our dear Saviors passion, the bible says,

For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up; and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me. Psa.69:9

This isn't saying people hated God, and took it out on his son. It saying people hated God, and hated his son also. And for us he said,

Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you Jn.15:20

The cross isn't the wrath of God falling on Jesus. It's the sins of mankind, the wrath of man against God falling on Jesus.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
9,124
5,508
113
#67
I smell the very strong odor of a works doctrine!
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
29,974
9,677
113
#68
Yeshua on a few occasions claimed that He was, I AM.

Yeshua on His own admittance revealed that He was God.

I believe that speaks clearly about who Yeshua was and still is!!
2 Timothy 2:13
He cannot deny Himself
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
29,974
9,677
113
#69
Jesus did in fact ask the question to the Father why He was being forsaken.
in the song, the hind asks this question, and as it turns out, she was mistaken; God does not forsake her

so here is God, hanging on His cross, totally doing the opposite of forsaking His people, while His people look on, forsaking Him and thinking that they have been forsaken. right?
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
33,730
11,458
113
66
Tennessee
#70
I've looked at them Miri. None of those verses teach penal substitution. Many of them do teach that people who were not responsible for certain sins committed, were still affected by them.

Where those who follow Jesus are concerned, Paul said,

That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; Phil.3:10

If penal substitution was true, there would be no way Paul could understand the sufferings of our Savior, or be made like him in death. No way. Do you see this? But if Jesus's sufferings were the result of being persecuted for obeying God, that is something believers could have fellowship with, could feel, could experience.

In speaking of our dear Saviors passion, the bible says,

For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up; and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me. Psa.69:9

This isn't saying people hated God, and took it out on his son. It saying people hated God, and hated his son also. And for us he said,

Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you Jn.15:20

The cross isn't the wrath of God falling on Jesus. It's the sins of mankind, the wrath of man against God falling on Jesus.
Seems clear to me through scripture that the wrath of God did indeed fall on Jesus when He took on the sins mankind and died on the cross.
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
1,342
587
113
#71
Jesus did in fact ask the question to the Father why He was being forsaken. Of course, Jesus knew the answer and that is because He was now carrying the sins of the world and that His father could not look at sin.

After paying the penalty for sin by descending into hell for 3 days He was restored to the Father that He has always known. There is a consequence for sin but Jesus was able and willing to pay this penalty by dying on the cross. Before being crucified Jesus prayed to the Father to have this cup taken from Him but nevertheless, also prayed that the Father's will and desire be accomplished by His dying on the cross for the sins of the world.

He was definitely forsaken by the Father otherwise Jesus would not have asked the Father, 'why?'. It's not that Jesus did not already know the answer but this most important question was asked for our own benefit in understanding the consequences of sin and that there is a price that has to be paid as a result.

You are correct in saying that Jesus knew the answer very well for it is probably the most important question that has ever been asked, one that everyone should be asking for themselves as well because it pertains to our personal relationship with the Lord and ultimately for our salvation.
The answer to his question is given in the rest of Psalm 22. It only appeared from man's point of view, that Jesus was being forsaken. He wasn't. Jesus only appeared sinful, as any other man. He wasn't.

Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: Mt.20:22-23

He's speaking of the cup of his suffering.

But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; 1Pe.4:13

Jesus suffered for us, not in place of us.
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
1,342
587
113
#73
Seems clear to me through scripture that the wrath of God did indeed fall on Jesus when He took on the sins mankind and died on the cross.
The sins that come from mankind, jealousy, hatred, false witness, murder, were inflicted on Jesus at the cross. And this Jesus endured for all mankind. He suffered for us all, not in place of us all.

Jesus was sinless, but condemned by man or, Jesus was sinless and condemned by God. The former is right, the latter is wrong.
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
1,342
587
113
#74
Isn't this the same thing?
Not at all. One is just, the other unjust.

For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. 1Pet.2:20

Jesus is the perfect example of suffering for doing well. He suffered "for our sins" in the sense of coming here for the purpose of bringing us to God...because we were separated from God due to our sins. And for this he was crucified by man, punished by man.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
33,730
11,458
113
66
Tennessee
#75
The sins that come from mankind, jealousy, hatred, false witness, murder, were inflicted on Jesus at the cross. And this Jesus endured for all mankind. He suffered for us all, not in place of us all.

Jesus was sinless, but condemned by man or, Jesus was sinless and condemned by God. The former is right, the latter is wrong.
The former rather than later is correct in regards that God requires a just punishment as a response to transgressions. Jesus paid the price that was required for these transgressions committed by man.

You are correct in saying that Jesus was sinless, in fact, He still remains sinless. Being without sin qualified Him to sacrifice His life for us who are with sin.

Jesus may have indeed been condemned by man but this condemnation was not authorized or recognized by God and was to no effect as crucifixion was not even possible unless the Father allowed His son to be killed for the remission of sins of the world.

Jesus did not want to go through this horrible ordeal but was willing to abide by what the Father decided. Jesus, in fact, suffered in place of us all otherwise we are still in our sin and will suffer condemnation by eternal separation from the love of God. God will have blotted us from His memory. For all practical and spiritual purposes we will no longer exist.
 

obedienttogod

Well-known member
Jan 3, 2019
1,012
342
83
#76
The scripture is certainly correct, no one comes to the Father except by Jesus. The bible does not specifically state that anyone is thrown in the lake of fire as a result of the judgement, it only states the penalty for sin. The bible also states that it is God's will and desire that none shall perish. It is inconceivable that God is not capable of accomplishing His own will and desire regarding salvation.

I believe that every word in the bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit and will certainly come to pass as stated but the reality is the entire Word of God has not yet been made known. In Revelation the apostle John was told not to record what the 7 Thunders uttered, Paul was told not to relate a certain matter in the vision that he saw, and it is not known what Jesus wrote on the ground with His finger when the woman caught in adultery was brought before Him. When it is finally revealed what was said, saw, and written in these instances it is certainly possible that the whole dynamic of the perception of salvation might be changed from what is currently understood.

None of what will be revealed will contradict what is already known and stated in scripture but the understanding may certainly be changed, and this for the ultimate glory of God and for the benefit for those that may otherwise eternally separated from the love of God.

A true atheist is one who denies there is a God, therefore is one who never admits they are a sinner who needs forgiveness. God desires that no one perishes. In your view, does the atheist end up with God, or in the Lake of Fire?
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
33,730
11,458
113
66
Tennessee
#77
A true atheist is one who denies there is a God, therefore is one who never admits they are a sinner who needs forgiveness. God desires that no one perishes. In your view, does the atheist end up with God, or in the Lake of Fire?
In the bible it says that everyone will one day bow down to the Lord and acknowledge Him therefore there will be no atheist thrown in the lake of fire because at that point they will believe in the existence of God. In my view the atheist ends up with God.
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
1,342
587
113
#78
I smell the very strong odor of a works doctrine!
I smell a sacrifice which pleases God,

For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. Psa.51:16-17
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
1,342
587
113
#79
The former rather than later is correct in regards that God requires a just punishment as a response to transgressions.
Just punishment is the life of the sinner,

every man shall be put to death for his own sin. Deut.24:16

Jesus paid the price that was required for these transgressions committed by man.
No he didn't because,

every one shall die for his own iniquity Jer.31:30

You are correct in saying that Jesus was sinless, in fact, He still remains sinless. Being without sin qualified Him to sacrifice His life for us who are with sin.
Being without sin qualified Jesus to rise from the dead, so the our faith would be in God,

Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 1Pet.1:21

Jesus may have indeed been condemned by man but this condemnation was not authorized or recognized by God and was to no effect as crucifixion was not even possible unless the Father allowed His son to be killed for the remission of sins of the world.
Of course God allowed it. By Jesus's life, death and resurrection, sinners come to faith in him,

And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. Lk.24:46-47

Jesus did not want to go through this horrible ordeal but was willing to abide by what the Father decided. Jesus, in fact, suffered in place of us all otherwise we are still in our sin and will suffer condemnation by eternal separation from the love of God. God will have blotted us from His memory. For all practical and spiritual purposes we will no longer exist.
No. Jesus suffered at the hands of people who hate God and for people who hate God, which includes all who have sinned against God. That includes all mankind. But Jesus did not die in place of sinners. God is merciful to anyone who desires forgivness, and to anyone who does not want forgivness, they will pay with their own life,

I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. Psa.32:5
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,355
113
#80
I believe Jesus was viewed as sinful, but not by his father.


God sees all, both good and evil (Pro.15:3).

And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. Gen.6:5

Jesus did suffer the sins in this world, but unjustly.

For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. Heb.12:3
Isaiah 53 <--IT PLEASED GOD it states....

This plan was set in motion before God even cast down the world.....and as many have stated above.....

Christ became a sin offering for us
Christ became a curse for us
Christ took our sin upon himself

and it is obviously clear that God momentarily forsook JESUS for a reason, and the reason being all the above references........

Remember what JESUS said to PETER when Peter lip flapped about JESUS not DYING.......Get behind me Satan........The will of the Heavenly Father was for JESUS to not only suffer, but also give up his life momentarily for the world......this he did and because of his faithfulness to the will of the Father he gets it ALL............

Please do no devalue the purpose and sacrifice of Christ...it was a most glorious death, burial and resurrection on our behalf.