Jews

[InSpiritInTruth]

There were also those who said they were Jews, but were not true spiritual Jews. These belong to the body of the beast, which is also made up of many members, a false church, or synagogue of Satan.

Revelation 2:9
I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Revelation 3:9
Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

 

[GodIsSalvation]

Yes we are Israel. By Jesus we have been grafted into Israel as was foretold in the Old Testament and testified to in the New Testament.

 

[Bowman]

Not by any definition, not by the Bible definition. Here we have a problem of definition. Jews, as a modern term, generally refers to the descendants of Jacob who follow the Talmud (not the OT) and deny the Lord Jesus. I should qualify that by saying that they more or less follow the Talmud on a spectrum ranging to being quite secular. However, as Romans 9 indicates, these are not actually Jews Biblically. To be a Jew Biblically requires that 1) you be a descendant of Jacob, and 2) trust the Lord Jesus as your Savior. So there are some real Jews around, like Paul was.

rom 2 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh: 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

I think that the most exhaustive treatment of this subject is found in Romans 9-11; here are some verses:

rom 9:

I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience bearing witness with me in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing pain in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were anathema from Christ for my brethren’s sake, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4 who are Israelites; whose is the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5 whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom. 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel: 7 neither, because they are Abraham’s seed, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed. 9 For this is a word of promise, According to this season will I come, and Sarah shall have a son. 10 And not only so; but Rebecca also having conceived by one, even by our father Isaac— 11 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, 12 it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.

This passage does not expand the concept of Jew to include Gentiles or Church members. It restricts the concept of Jew to a smaller elect part of Israel. And these can be Christians in the Church.

Observe...


'The only point is that the relationship worked out in individual stories gives to John’s use of ιουδαιοις an emphasis which obviously did not lie in the name previously, but was made possible by the fact it denoted the religious attitude of those who were thus designated is a name for those who reject the claim of Jesus to lordship, and who remain Jews because they do so.'

Reference:
Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT), Gerhard Kittel, Gerhard Friedrich, & Geoffrey W. Bromiley, volume three, pp. 359 - 391

 

[prove-all]

I disagree, we inherit the same promises being the seed of Abraham.

.

But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator
of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

they had the promise of physical land for an inheritance.

we are given a new hope of a promised land, internal inheritance.

along with the help of the Holy spirit now given, and laws on our hearts​

 

[prove-all]

-current lost tribes of Israel, that was deforced by God.

Isaiah 8:17: “And I will wait upon the Lord,
that hideth his face from the house of Jacob

-remember there is 2 promises given.

The sceptre shall not depart from Judah …” (Genesis 49:10).
But the birthright was Joseph’s” (1 Chronicles 5:2).

the promises and the covenants of God, the sonship and the glory,
belong to Israel (Romans 9:4).

Behold, I will make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, and I will
make of thee a multitude of people; and will give this land to thy
seed after thee for an everlasting possession” (Genesis 48:2-4).

“And now thy two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, which were
born unto thee in the land of Egypt before I came unto thee into
Egypt, are mine; as Reuben and Simeon, they shall be mine”

The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads;
and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers
Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the
midst of the earth” (verses 14-16).

“Joseph is a fruitful bough,even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches [margin,
daughters] run over the wall” (verse 22).

“[T]he Almighty … shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep
that lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb: The blessings of thy father have
prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills:
they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren”.

In Genesis 48 Jacob first passed the birthright on to the two sons of Joseph jointly, speaking of them
both together. Then he spoke of them separately—Manasseh was to become the single great nation;
Ephraim, the company of nations.

The promise of a future great nation and a company of
nations, together great for multitude, rich in national material
prosperity,fruits of the ground, possessing the “gates” of the Earth’s other nations,
spreading north s. e. w. applies to these lads and the two tribes which sprang from them.

-nothing about septer promise of one seed or grace in these promises.
only physical nations and multitudes in the midst of earth

Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning
my sons and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.​

“Behold, the days come, saith the [Eternal],
that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto.....

 

[robinriley]

Also, if we are the Bride of Christ, and He is a Jew, and we convert to His Ways,
we are now Jews, according to OT citizenship.

(Robin)
A common thing I hear all the time ..."Bride of Christ" ... and yet, this phrase is to be found nowhere in scriptures?
Doesn't that make you stop and ponder ... have you, then been fed yet another doctrinal myth?

 

[prove-all]

(Robin)
A common thing I hear all the time ..."Bride of Christ" ... and yet, this phrase is to be found nowhere in scriptures?
Doesn't that make you stop and ponder ... have you, then been fed yet another doctrinal myth?

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven,
prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.​

 

[GodIsSalvation]

(Robin)
A common thing I hear all the time ..."Bride of Christ" ... and yet, this phrase is to be found nowhere in scriptures?
Doesn't that make you stop and ponder ... have you, then been fed yet another doctrinal myth?

Actually "The Bride" is found in scripture in numerous places, particularly about the end of days (ie: Revelation, parables by Jesus in the Gospels, even some of the OT prophecies, etc.)

 

[prove-all]

(Robin)
A common thing I hear all the time ..."Bride of Christ" ... and yet, this phrase is to be found nowhere in scriptures?
Doesn't that make you stop and ponder ... have you, then been fed yet another doctrinal myth?

mabe read Ephesians 5

This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.​

 

[LT]

Never really heard of doubting the position of the Church as being the Bride of Christ. It's a pretty clear teaching straight out of the Word.

 

[robinriley]

Actually "The Bride" is found in scripture in numerous places, particularly about the end of days (ie: Revelation, parables by Jesus in the Gospels, even some of the OT prophecies, etc.)

(Robin)
The question was ... Where do you find the phrase "Bfide of Christ?"

 

[robinriley]

mabe read Ephesians 5

This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.​

(Robin)
The question was, where do you find the phrase "Bride of Christ?"

The phrase "Body of Christ" is in scriptures, but not "Bride of Christ" ...
Again, scripture is God-breathed ... God's words ... so I'm only suggesting, again,
that we be careful with it ... dont assume that certain words (e.g., "heretick") are present,
or certain phrases are present, unless you can specifically find the verse that says such things ...
And even then, you need to be careful about the translation you consult, because many are more
interested in "coloring" the words in such a manner that appears to support some doctrinal bent ...
such as in Colossians where some translations substitute "reality" or "substance" for the actual word "body" ...

Does any of this make a real difference? You tell me?
I think God is very careful about the words He uses to talk with us ... so I start with that idea, always, when reading a verse.

 

[flob]

To one husband to present you as a pure virgin to Christ.

The Christ...He who has the bride is the bridegroom

 

[robinriley]

Never really heard of doubting the position of the Church as being the Bride of Christ. It's a pretty clear teaching straight out of the Word.

(Robin)
Well now you have ... and it's not as clear and straight forward as you think ...
Pause a moment ... I'm simply stating a fact, not questioning your commitment.
Just give it a try ... find the verse that says "Bride of Christ" ... and if you can't
then pause again, and ponder ... have you just assumed something about scripture,
perhaps, even, you've been taught something that isn't exactly factual ... it is possible, right?

 

[robinriley]

To one husband to present you as a pure virgin to Christ.

The Christ...He who has the bride is the bridegroom

(Robin)
Good evening Flob ... and yes, I'm aware of that verse ...it's a figure of speech, so be careful there,
such figures are used for particular reasons, particular ideas, and should never be streached beyond
their intended purpose ... Paul had a particular idea to get across, here, and we should limit our
perception of his use of this particular figure to only what he was specifically talking about ... that is,
we shouldn't take it any further than Paul used it, we shouldn't be trying to make it read ..."Bride of Christ" ...

 

[GodIsSalvation]

(Robin)
The question was ... Where do you find the phrase "Bfide of Christ?"

Ah so you want the specific phrase "Bride of Christ". For sooth it is like you say then and the exact phrase "Bride of Christ" not used, though Revelation 21 is probably the closest to it.

However, if Jesus be the Christ, and his bride be mentioned, then the answer has all ready been given to you.

 

[robinriley]

Actually "The Bride" is found in scripture in numerous places, particularly about the end of days (ie: Revelation, parables by Jesus in the Gospels, even some of the OT prophecies, etc.)

(Robin)
Yes ... never said differently; that is you are most correct ... correct about the many verses that "bride" can be found,
but the question was: where does scripture specifically say ..."Bride of Christ" ...

 

[flob]

Good evening Flob ... and yes, I'm aware of that verse ...it's a figure of speech, so be careful there,
such figures are used for particular reasons, particular ideas, and should never be streached beyond
their intended purpose ... Paul had a particular idea to get across, here, and we should limit our
perception of his use of this particular figure to only what he was specifically talking about ... that is,
we shouldn't take it any further than Paul used it, we shouldn't be trying to make it read ..."Bride of Christ" ...

To the contrary:
a figure of speech is speech.
Paul said he betrothed his converts to Christ, as pure virgins.
He likened them to Eve, the female.
In fact, the Bible begins and ends with marriage.
If you want to call them: figures of marriage..
Well wait, Adam and Eve was a real joining of one man and one woman.
Like it says. And Eph 5 repeats. But then you're right Robin:
God's creation, human marriage, is but a figure of the Spirit and the Bride,
the Spirit and us

 

[crossnote]

Yes we are Israel. By Jesus we have been grafted into Israel as was foretold in the Old Testament and testified to in the New Testament.

So not only the promises are ours but the threats given to Israel are ours too?

 

[GodIsSalvation]

So not only the promises are ours but the threats given to Israel are ours too?

I would think both the blessings and the cursings be fulfilled all ready, either at the time of Jesus resurrection, or before it throughout the Old Testament.